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[Proposal] Please remove Bowling Bash Cool Down in Renewal.


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#1 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:03 AM

(A) Proposal for Bowling Bash Cool-down removal.

Dear Oda/Camp, 

 

I am writing in this thread to ask for a change against a very old update patch performed in 2010 where Bowling Bash, Double Strafe and Arrow Shower got cool downs added to their skill (link: http://forums.irowik...ead.php?t=70295). Please, remove the cool down of these skills in Renewal, especially the hefty 0.5 seconds cool down on Bowling Bash for Rune Knights.

 

This cool down is unique in that it is only present in iRO, and does not happen in jRO or kRO. It is extremely important since it has been destroying the DPS potential of the Rune Knight class only in iRO- for those who do not want to play a DB build.  You may refer to videos in section 1 of (B ) below to see my point.

 

 

If you have noticed, all of RK's third class skills for physical attacks have heavy Cool Downs slapped on them by kRO (IB & Wind Cutter both has a 2 seconds cooldown, while Sonic Wave has 1 second cooldown and 1 second after cast delay to be exact).

 

I believe that the developers implemented the skills this way so that the third class skills are used in coherence with Bowling Bash in order for the DPS to sustain at a high and yet not overpowered level. The addition of the 0.5 seconds cool down in iRO has effectively wiped away more than 60% of the damage potential of the class as the theoretical limits of 12-14 bowling bashes if you have a maxed attack speed of 193 in between 2 seconds for each ignition break has become only 4 no matter how fast your attack speed. I have written down a full damage guide to show what I mean. You may refer to it in ©.

 

This effectively opened up a huge hole between Rune Knights and other classes such as GXes and  even, *gasp* Royal Guards(our defensive counterpart), who end up having higher DPS from skills that can be spammed at their intended attack speed rates. The damage potential of Rune Knights was not meant to be so limited despite having to trade off the usage of a shield to use a two-handed sword. You may see my point through videos of GXs spamming 100K rolling cutters and even RGs spamming Vanishing Points that are way stronger than BB in section 2 of (B )below as well.

 

 

Concerns that you or other players may have:

  • Bowling Bash cool down was implemented to combat no delay:
    I understand that a no delay discussion was sparked off in 2014 (see thread: https://forums.warpp...force-no-delay/), although the patch was done in 2011. However, this is only relevant in Classic, where there are no other better skills to spam. My math in © will show you how this cool-down has only destroyed Bowling Bash's damage potential while DB remains much stronger and preferred choice that any no-delay cheater with a brain would rather use.
     
  • In the case of WOE-TE:
    Renewal's Bowling Bash is different from Classic in that out of BB's 0.7 cast time, 0.35 seconds of it is fixed cast time that cannot be removed without having 120dex from temporal dex boots. This in itself restricts Bowling Bash from being exploited by no-delay lowbies since level 99 characters cannot have 120 dex nor wear temporal dex. Even if no-delay can bypass such fixed cast times, it would be very obvious in WOE-TE since no LKs should be able to spam BB at high speeds without 120Dex. If that is still insufficient, the cool down for bowling bash should just be implemented in the WOE-TE maps. This is important for the DPS of a Sword RK because of how third class skills were implemented through the considerations of their previous class skills (as in the case for BB), and more importantly for Sword RKs to be able to better tackle newer game contents where mobs have 200-300K HPs while bosses have like 12M upwards of HP.

 

Ending Off

 

I know that DB RKs are very strong if you have MVP cards or are in a the presence of a Maestro. However, Sword RKs are a very different breed all together, being dependent on very different gears from DB RKs (that actually requires ATK and uses the sword), while using more skills in a Rune Knight's skill tree. They should have been a legitimate offence class it was meant to be, if not for the interference from the BB cool down.

When a user first starts their job change into a Rune Knight, the job change knight Manuel tells us this: 

“You walk the way of the sword too don’t you? Then we can understand each other. Drinks taste better when it’s with a fellow Swordsman.”

“I’ll buy this round. A token to our friendship ~”

“In my opinion you seem ready to start a new way … “

“Walking the path of a sword in a perpetual battle. From now on you may have a rough journey ahead of you…”

“If you want to walk on your new way and surpass your current limits, I’m willing to help you.”

“The true way of a Swordsman who learned harmony to break the limit of a sword is a Rune Knight”.

 

While DB remains strong, it doesn't in all matters of fact, actually represents a Swordsman. All of the class's skills become unnecessary for a DB RK, who ends up only requiring two skills (water and fire DB), and some runes. Please don't make the sword even more obsolete.  Remove the Bowling Bash cool down, in order for the way of the Sword to shine again.

WS4i17o.jpg?1

 

------------------------------------------------

(B ) Evidences:

Here's the proof of the cooldown in iRO as through my video record:
 

1.1 Showcase using max aspd, 120dex with temporal dex boots to remove fixed cast time:

 

1.2Cooldown is not reduced even by aftercast delay:

 

Videos of how BB should have been, as shown in both kRO and jRO respectively:
 

1.3 Stalker spamming BB in NCT (kRO): 

 

1.4 RK killing Orc lord using BB (jRO):

 

 

Videos of other Classes who are spamming even stronger skills at similar or faster rates:
 

2.1 GX 120K Rolling Cutters, spammed at 5 hits or more per second (taken from LiLCrazed's video in GX MVP Videos):

 

2.2 Royal Guard from spamming 30K Vanishing Points (RK was meant to be able to spam BB to hit a similar DPS to them for losing a shield):

 

------------------------------------------------

© The math behind why the Bowling Bash aftercast delay is destroying Sword RKs:

A. ORIGINALLY

1. ASPD-based skill's original DPS intention: If you have high aspd, you can do a lot of damage through spamming. They usually have decent but not OP modifiers since Aspd is easier to achieve.

Let's say BB does 10K.

· 1(A) 190 ASPD in a second (5hits per sec):
10K--10K--10K--10K--10K= 50K per second---> in 5 second you do 250K. 

 

· 1(B ) 193ASPD in a second (7 hits per sec):
10K-10K-10K-10K-10K-10K-10K= 70K per second ---------------------> in 5 seconds you do 350K

 

Note: Game rewards you for doing higher aspd as intended. An aspd gain from 190 to 193 gives you an additional 100K damage in 5 seconds.

 

2. Aftercast Delay skill's original DPS intention: High damage usually,  limited by aftercast delays, meant to be reward higher DPS  for reducing delay, through more difficult means such as kiels and expensive aftercast reduc gears.

Let's say DB (or some other aftercast delay based skill) does 30K:

·  2(A) 193ASPD and 50% reduc (only TGL, HWHB+12 and 2 Sarah Rings):
30K-------= 30K per second ----------------------> in 5 seconds you only do 150K. Because Aftercast Delay skills usually have high damage, they are meant to be entirely rewarded based on reducing aftercast delay in addition to aspd delays, so even though you have 50% reduc, the DPS still isnt high yet.

 

· 2(B ) 193ASPD with 90% redux (originally):
30K--30K--30K--30K--30K= 150K per second.--> in 5 seconds you do 750K

 

Note: Game rewards you as intended for achieving godlike redux in addition to having high aspd. You get a larger gain of 600K DPS gain.
 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

B. Now, With iRO's custom silly Server-wide Cool Down of 0.5S for BB

1. ASPD-based skill's original DPS intention: If you have high aspd, you can do a lot of damage through spamming. They usually have decent but not OP modifiers since Aspd is easier to achieve.

 

BB continues to do 10K.

· 193aspd in a second now becomes:
10K-------10K= 20K per second. ----> in 5 seconds you do 100K. This has DESTROYED BB? 350K---> 100K!

 

Note: Now it doesnt even matter if you had 190 Aspd or 193, Or even anything in the 180 range. 2 hits per limit is what you get at 171 aspd! Can you see how the original ASPD reward intention was taken away?
 

2.  Aftercast Delay skill's original DPS intention: High damage usually,  limited by aftercast delays, meant to be reward higher DPS  for reducing delay, through more difficult means such as kiels and expensive aftercast reduc gears.

Let's say DB (or some other aftercast delay based skill) does 30K:

· 193ASPD and 50% reduc:
30K-------= 30K per second ----------------------> in 5 seconds you only do 150K
 

· 193ASPD with 90% redux:
30K--30K--30K--30K--30K= 150K per second.--> in 5 seconds you do 750K
 

Note: In any possible scenarios, any player with a brain and owns no-delay access would choose to spam DBs and not Bowling Bash, as you can see in the damage gain from 150K to 750K.


***OVERALL: BB just got smacked to hell for doing nothing wrong, when Renewal's stronger skills that are more susceptible to no-delay cheats are not touched (DB etc).
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

(D) *Added 09-03-16* Greater details of imbalance in percentages due to BB Cool Down:

  • GX: level of DPS using Roller Cutter = approx. 24000% in two seconds. 
    -->It's highest considering their lack of shield and full offense orientation. It does not even require 193 aspd.

    **EDP makes their RCs hit about 2000% per roll, given the initial ~500% and EDP's 5x weapon ATK and 4x Equipment ATK. This is compounded by the min of 5 spins per sec to a max of 7 spins per second, which is averaged out to 6 spins.
     
  • RG: Vanishing Point DPS using 193 aspd = ~16800% upwards in two seconds (this is without taking into account Ranged % boosts). 
    -->While having a shield, their DPS remains very high. But we can see that this is a single target skill that even has range.
     
    **This is taken as a base of 1400% per use -for being lvl175 and having maxed bash, spammed at 193 ASPD (7 hits per second top), but using the figure of 6 hits per second average to allow consistency for comparison to GX (done the same for RK figures below as well).
     
  • RK (with Current BB Cool Down ): level of DPS  = 3500% from Ignition Break + 4*1000% from 4 BBs= 7500% in two seconds.
    --> Despite similarly lacking shield like GX due to using a two hand sword, the damage % is very pathetic. The trade-off is extremely unbalanced as you lose out a shield just to hit less than half your defensive counterpart. A good game developer would not have made it this way, which I trust that kRO's game developer does understand. The original DPS % is thus presented below.

    ** IB's 3500% has already considering +9 Black Ribbon and Fire Element.
     
  • RK (Without iRO's BB Cool Down): level of DPS= 3500% from IB + 12*1000% (an average of 12 BBs in 193aspd) = 15500% in two seconds.
    --> This seems to be more balanced, where RKs do lose out the shield and still hit lower than RGs, they are able to generate the DPS in a small AOE from BB. This is still however, only 2/3 of what a GX is able to do, which is fair considering RKs do have a better defensive capabilities than GX through runes (but still lower than RGs). This has not even taken into account the need for 120 Dex and temporal dex boots in addition to 193 aspd in order to be able to spam BB. Neither RGs nor GXs need 120dex to perform their above DPS, allowing them to wear temporal str boots and similar acquire 120 STR instead, which places their ATK to the level similar to the addition from twohanded swords. (A Temporal str boots +9 adds 71 ATK without FS7).

    The important note is to see that this is what is original done in kRO's settings as they do not have the BB cool down that iRO separately added, which effectively took off 60%~70% of RK's skill DPS only here in iRO. This is because Sword RKs do not have any other decent skills to use in between IB's 2 seconds cooldown, resulting in Sword RKs being unable to deal sufficient skill DPS in the current endgame state. 

 

-----------------------------------------------------

*This thread is started from a continuation of a long discussion between a few of us RK players in the RK section, where we talked about the feasibility of a new RK build spamming BB and IB at high speeds. You may look for the full discussion that is even more detailed from page 17-19 of my thread: https://forums.warpp...t-guide/page-17


Edited by blackCROSSCY, 09 March 2016 - 06:40 AM.

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#2 fuyukikun

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:10 AM

wait, so LK can do something besides spamming magnum break on strings to break casting in WOE TE?
btw that chaser Severe Rainstorm + BB tactics is pretty cool

Edited by fuyukikun, 08 March 2016 - 04:12 AM.

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#3 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:13 AM

Agreed. Please join me in my proposal!!!!


Edited by blackCROSSCY, 08 March 2016 - 04:24 AM.

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#4 bravewarrior

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:18 AM

ya he's right.. and remove dragon breath change to somtinhg else.. that skill is ugly  :p_idea:


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#5 fuyukikun

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:23 AM

i dont mind if BB got its cooldown removed, but please do that to other non3rd class skills which got their custom cooldown as well such as double strafe, shield boomerang, etc. inb4 other people got envy and start another "remove DS, arrow shower cooldown petition" kind of threads


Edited by fuyukikun, 08 March 2016 - 04:23 AM.

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#6 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:25 AM

If they have the same great reasoning and patient to do what I have taken days to write, and personally experienced through the hardships as in the case of a swords RK, I certainly dont mind more people starting the same kind of topics. Anyway, I got the hint to change to call it a proposal because of WP policies.


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#7 Ashuckel

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:26 AM

wait, so LK can do something besides spamming magnum break on strings to break casting in WOE TE?

Why do you think those +9~12 Triple Sword Guardian RTE exist :v


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#8 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:31 AM

yeah, the cooldowns today of those skills are already unreasonable. Please bring them back to normal


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#9 fuyukikun

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:31 AM

Why do you think those +9~12 Triple Sword Guardian RTE exist :v

still weak, i tried it on TE and got disappointed


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#10 Exuro

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:37 AM

Just remove all custom cooldowns for non-3rd job skills, please.

 

And also have kRO fix BB for heaven's sake. Stop relying on these gutter lines to cover up a bug!


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#11 Ashuckel

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:41 AM

enabling Frenzy inside castles would be cool too :)
And Extreme Vaccuum on instances, and many other maps where it is disabled :c


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#12 Exuro

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:44 AM

enabling Frenzy inside castles would be cool too :)

 

Wow this is disabled? Oh how WoE has changed
 


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#13 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:45 AM

enabling Frenzy inside castles would be cool too :)
And Extreme Vaccuum on instances, and many other maps where it is disabled :c

 

The Extreme Vacuum one would probably be too much since it would become an exploit :v

Agree with frenzy in castles though. For its major downsides I dont see why it must be disabled


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#14 fuyukikun

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:46 AM

cast frenzy outside castle, then flag in in you have castle


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#15 Exuro

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:46 AM

Bro, post your proposal here.

 

https://forums.warpp...view=getnewpost

 

Well, just post a shortened statement (1-2 sentences) and just paste a link to this thread.

 

@fuyukikun

But Frenzy is mostly used for breaking emps, right?


Edited by Exuro, 08 March 2016 - 04:47 AM.

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#16 MegaEdge

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:48 AM

Might as well remove the EDP nerf on Sonic Blow in Renewal.


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#17 Ashuckel

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:52 AM

cast frenzy outside castle, then flag in in you have castle

But EDP only lasts 1min , if you know what i mean :v


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#18 CadburyChocolate

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:53 AM

Might as well remove the EDP nerf on Sonic Blow in Renewal.

That was an official nerf, this is a CDs are iRO customs only


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#19 fuyukikun

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:54 AM

 

@fuyukikun

But Frenzy is mostly used for breaking emps, right?

no, it is mainly for killing, you can just use THQ or OHQ if you want to break emp

if you are in attacking guild, just cast frenzy on portal outside, then race against time into deeper part of the castle before your HP becomes 100 (or until a sage dispelled you :v)

 

i was a LK player on woe TE before i switched to biochemist. i tried frenzy aspd crit build at first, then changed to BB build using triple sword guardian RTE. both LK build sucks so i play biochem.


Edited by fuyukikun, 08 March 2016 - 05:01 AM.

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#20 Hissis

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:55 AM

+1

 

as well double strafe delay should be removed in Renewal


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#21 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 04:56 AM

Bro, post your proposal here.

 

https://forums.warpp...view=getnewpost

 

Well, just post a shortened statement (1-2 sentences) and just paste a link to this thread.

 

@fuyukikun

But Frenzy is mostly used for breaking emps, right?

 

 

Thanks for the reminder man. I have just posted in Tiki Tuesday as you suggested. I hope they see it and hear out my RK pains!


Edited by blackCROSSCY, 08 March 2016 - 04:56 AM.

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#22 Mayhem

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 05:05 AM

Agreed. Mainly cus I dont want my arrow shower to have it but a lot of old things iro did might need to be looked at.


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#23 Kadelia

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 05:06 AM

The change is to stop nodelay type spam. Which is not resolved. And no, I don't want to see bowling bash spam in TE.

Your motivation is cattywampus. Your class is useful in TE and you want to kill people on top of it. You want to be an hero. If your class was under-used or had no useful role... SOME legit complaint... you'd have a leg to stand on. But you don't. You're complaining your tank/pre-cast breaking character should overlap assassin cross's job... without drawbacks (like not having shield or lower hp, or lower pot efficiency). It reeks of selfishness and nothing else. This is the exact type of petition GMs should be ignoring.

Edited by Kadelia, 08 March 2016 - 05:10 AM.

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#24 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 05:08 AM

The change is to stop nodelay type spam. Which is not resolved. And no, I don't want to see bowling bash spam in TE. This is the exact type of petition GMs should be ignoring. Your motivation is cattywampus. Your class is useful in TE and you want to kill people on top of it. You want to be an hero. If your

 

Hi Kadelia, you have obviously not read my content. I am reposting it for you here, so if you have a valid counter-argument I would like to hear it. FYI, I am in zero guilds and have purely been a PVM lover for the game contents and instances through role playing as a knight, for the years I have been playing RO.

 

  • In the case of WOE-TE:
    Renewal's Bowling Bash is different from Classic in that out of BB's 0.7 cast time, 0.35 seconds of it is fixed cast time that cannot be removed without having 120dex from temporal dex boots. This in itself restricts Bowling Bash from being exploited by no-delay lowbies since level 99 characters cannot have 120 dex nor wear temporal dex. Even if no-delay can bypass such fixed cast times, it would be very obvious in WOE-TE since no LKs should be able to spam BB at high speeds without 120Dex. If that is still insufficient, the cool down for bowling bash should just be implemented in the WOE-TE maps. This is important for the DPS of a Sword RK because of how third class skills were implemented through the considerations of their previous class skills (as in the case for BB), and more importantly for Sword RKs to be able to better tackle newer game contents where mobs have 200-300K HPs while bosses have like 12M upwards of HP.

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#25 Hissis

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 05:12 AM

The change is to stop nodelay type spam. Which is not resolved. And no, I don't want to see bowling bash spam in TE.

Your motivation is cattywampus. Your class is useful in TE and you want to kill people on top of it. You want to be an hero. If your class was under-used or had no useful role... SOME legit complaint... you'd have a leg to stand on. But you don't. You're complaining your tank/pre-cast breaking character should overlap assassin cross's job... without drawbacks (like not having shield or lower hp, or lower pot efficiency). It reeks of selfishness and nothing else. This is the exact type of petition GMs should be ignoring.

 

aww,i forgot about nodelay spam >_>


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