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[Proposal] Please remove Bowling Bash Cool Down in Renewal.


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#151 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 07:59 PM

You should be ashamed of yourself for your ploy to ruin other peoples' gameplay in woe te for your own benefit with an esoteric leveling build.

 

It is not a leveling build, with HUGE potential to be a real end-game build (over 350K damage per second with JUST SIMPLE GEARS), and it is only ESOTERIC because iRO made it this way. This is A BIG thing, that is removed away simply for WOE-TE, a lvl99 WOE???? Why not remove DB and Cart Cannon for WOE because of no delay cheats there too? THE PROBLEM IS THE ACCESS, don't you get it?

A 350K upwards damage per second build that is WAY more accessible than a high end DB build, and can outcompete DBs in Wind/Water/Dark/Holy/Ghost element monsters, is a leveling build? It is only because the potential was taken away by iRO!

This is the killer change needed for players to pick RKs without feeling as it can't do anything without god-like equipments for DB, and it had always been part of the REAL game design, not just what I wanted out of my own fantasies or something. Please, stop being prejudiced against BB.

 

***

In before anyone says I'm pulling data or telling lies about BB, check my images.

http://imgur.com/a/49hT0

(464 ATK comes from 

White Eddga 300
FS7 Temporal dex 27
FS12 Weapon 42
Physical Set 40
Wakwak 55
Total= 464)

http://calc.irowiki....akabaaundefined
--> not trustable because link always screws up the additional enchants.

**
Current 2 BB and 1 IB CANNOT COMPETE with this, with more BBs in between each IB.


Edited by blackCROSSCY, 10 March 2016 - 08:05 PM.

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#152 Kadelia

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:03 PM

you're really bad at both math and reality


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#153 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:08 PM

Oh yeah? Tell me how? Are you talking about the DPS of 197K only for BB there? I'm glad you asked, because I was baiting you with it. 

This has not added the 100K IBs. Nor has it included any forms of temporal boots enchant like hawk eye, lucky day or bear power. The calculator also assumes only 3.5-4 casts per second because of how they set up the averages. All of these will lead to 350K upwards damage per second. Now tell me is my math bad or yours?


Edited by blackCROSSCY, 10 March 2016 - 08:10 PM.

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#154 Kadelia

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:13 PM

Z z Z

 

I am referring to you thinking you can do 7 BB/sec (it will be more like 3-4), or that you'll have eddga proc'd 24/7 for that average DPS. Spiking at ~200k/sec for 3 sec every 10 sec and 120k/sec the rest of the time makes you average around 144k, but by your fantasy it's 350k. Your damage numbers are, in general, incredibly generous to begin with, even before considering DPS will be a fraction of what you calculate.


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#155 VModCinnamon

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:13 PM

you're really bad at both math and reality

 

This kind of comment is not helpful, so please comment reasonably or don't.

 

 

Again, the restraint here is the cheat factor. Making the cool down go off/on per map setting that I don't know if possible or not. It might be too late to get any feedback or response from the CMs today but they are fully aware of this discussion.


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#156 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:15 PM

Z z Z

I am referring to you thinking you can do 7 BB/sec (it will be more like 3-4), or that you'll have eddga proc'd 24/7 for that average DPS. Spiking at ~200k/sec for 3 sec every 10 sec and 120k/sec the rest of the time makes you average around 144k, but by your fantasy it's 350k. Your damage numbers are, in general, incredibly generous to begin with, even before considering DPS will be a fraction of what you calculate.

I'm not. my calculations for 350k per second involves only 4 BBs per second. this is added by IB casts and bear power.

* BP spikes BB damage up to 67k. 4 casts is 268K, added by 120K IB (during BP) divided by 2 to assume 1 cast. 338K.

Edited by blackCROSSCY, 10 March 2016 - 08:17 PM.

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#157 Kadelia

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:17 PM

You have really unrealistic expectations if you think you can do 4 BB and an IB in 1 second without a 3rd party program. And if you are, you're who this cooldown is targeting.


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#158 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:19 PM

I don't. it's 1 IB and 7-8 BBs in 2 seconds. 100% achievable without no delays cheat, using just attack speed and even just a slightly okay ping (wtfast or anything else for those who can't).

Are you saying the GXes spamming 5 casts per second are all cheaters now? Woah? what about all the RGs spamming high speed VPs? I THINK WE NEED FIXED COOL DOWNs for these skills too to prevent no delay spam then!! And they are much stronger skills. You're making bad assumptions here, and even targeting facts that I have already tried to prove are doable through my first post videos of GX and RG aspd spam

Edited by blackCROSSCY, 10 March 2016 - 08:21 PM.

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#159 quick44

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 09:25 PM

after having gone through the entire post it appears the only people who are opposed to this proposal either haven't read the OP's first argument properly and posted their view or arguing just for the sake of arguing just to save face without a valid counter.

 

the only valid argument that was that BB open to abuse using nodelay once the 0.5 sec cooldown is removed. (with heavy requirements like being 3rd Class, 120 dex, 193 aspd and temporal Dex boots and you also need certain amount of str if you are going to have any impact on mobs with BB. since the 0.35 sec fixed cast cannot be reduced without them)

 

This was the same problem the GMs faced when temporal boots were introduced and people were spamming DB using nodelay and the solution was to add a 0.2 sec cooldown which can be applied in this case too if there is any abuse. but the 0.5 sec cooldown seems rather unfair.

 

a bit off topic now

but how did the chaser get 193 aspd form just hawkeye proc? i barely get 1 aspd when it procs.

 

also have they fixed the gutterlines problem in  Kro?

 

 


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#160 spikexp

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 10:05 PM

You have really unrealistic expectations if you think you can do 4 BB and an IB in 1 second without a 3rd party program. And if you are, you're who this cooldown is targeting.


my kagero can do that many flaming petals without 3pp in a sec tho, it's doable when ping's below 0,1 - which rarely happens especially when I turn pingzapper off

anyway, as far as I remember, use of AHK as long as it doesn't automate play is also legit. grey area, but :v
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#161 Zayaan

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 11:14 PM

but how did the chaser get 193 aspd form just hawkeye proc? i barely get 1 aspd when it procs.

 

kRO updated the effects of GH enchants. Hawkeye adds +200 Dex and +100% aspd, Muscle Fool increases HP instead of Def, and I don't know whether the rest were changed.


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#162 DemliekCake

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 11:15 PM

a bit off topic now

but how did the chaser get 193 aspd form just hawkeye proc? i barely get 1 aspd when it procs.

 

also have they fixed the gutterlines problem in  Kro?

are you referring to the SR+ BB build in the first post? i think he run with constant 193 aspd. HE/dex barely affect aspd. and also,
NNzJ8G8.gif

edit: ninja'd by zayaan :v


Edited by DemliekCake, 10 March 2016 - 11:16 PM.

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#163 VModCinnamon

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:48 PM

can the CM reconsider please? How about just adding the cooldown in WOE maps? Or coming out with a Lower headgear to remove the cd but doesn't work on woe map?

or even just lowering the cd to 0.2 seconds which should make them the same speed as what a legit RK can spam?0.5 seconds is just too hefty and entire limits the skill. Please reconsider

 

Not something you would like to hear but CM Campitor has stated earlier today there are no plans in removing or changing the cooldown. Restricting the cooldown per map setting is also not possible, it is a universal toggle. This leaves the item proposal, in my opinion try at Tiki Show for a prompt comment.


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#164 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 03:55 AM

That's just upsetting news to me, to say in the most positive way. I have my last pointers here on the issue- that I request that Camp please hear out.

After all the talk on cheats, and even dupes, I have since spent a week experimenting with the cheat tools I have found online on several private servers with supposingly similar settings to kRO. I have sent a PM to you with regards to these tools before. There's no other better way to understand the situation than to actually experiment with them and test them out to gain a broader perspective.

I can safely confirm to you that no tool can bypass fixed cast time, nor can they bypass aftercast delays set on skills, which are server-side checked. Only skills that the character is naturally able to spam (like a RK with no cast and max aftercast delays in magic strings), gets spammed at a much higher rates, especially if accompanied by illegal Sprite modifications that removes skill animations. Which means illegal advantages since they can cast 7 to maybe even 8 or 9 casts a second without needing high aspd, over players who legitly spam 3-4 per second max with max aspd.

This proves a few things to me:
-LKs still can't spam BB without removing fixed cast time.

-Cool down is effective in preventing spams in any skills, but is clearly overdone for bowling bash, only limiting the abilities of a LK and even RKs unnecessarily. It only serves as an unjustified nerf on a skill that does not deserve this treatment, while ignoring skills that are justifiably in greater needs of such cool downs at the current renewal stage. Just changing the cool down to 0.2 seconds will have done the job against packet spam, while the team chose to set a 0.5 seconds cool down, which affects real players using the skill. I wonder, did you choose such a high CD only because it had a 1000% modifier- as I further compared it to the 0.3sec cool down added to double strafe? That would truly be biased.

In fact, Dragon breath, Aimed Bolt, Cart Cannon, and plenty other strong skills with insanely high modifiers, currently are fully available for packet spamming should the player meet the required of cast times. Cool downs should be prioritized or even necessary for many of these skills, and your best example, bRO, has only chosen a 0.2 second cool down for dragon breath so that real players are unaffected.

-some measures that other servers have taken successful is to introduce packet delaying on server side that alerts the server if packet spamming is performed, while also regulating these packet spammed casts to 0.3 seconds. I have seen it first hand in one of the servers I tested in the prior week, and have found the source for the packet delay protection. Feel free to ask me for the links.

I am able to do video tests on request, and perhaps try out on Chaos if the team is willing. As far as I am aware, iRO has zero protection against any of these tools, a far worse comparison to other servers who are better protected while hosting smaller group of players and incurring much lower costs.

If this is still unable to convince you (Camp) or Oda to at least reduce the cool down, I cannot help but perceive that the team is simply inflexible and unwilling to make better changes- especially if you do not state how cheats means the cool down have to stay at 0.5 seconds when I have taken the time and effort to test out for you that it is unnecessary for it to be so high.

Maybe then it would be time for me to move on to other entertainment sources after tons of time and money spent in this game.

Edited by blackCROSSCY, 15 March 2016 - 05:25 AM.

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#165 DemliekCake

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 04:31 AM

please, from their reply of my earlier questions, you can see that they didn't even read the first post properly, like everyone who tried to argue about this proposal.

i already give up with this. IRo server isnt worth the effort whether it is time or money. You better off go with other server or other game.


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#166 Campitor

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 08:31 AM

Cinnamod asked me to look into this deeper. I dug into the configurable files for setting Fixed Delays, after cast delays, cast times, etc. Bowling bash has no entry in the file.

 

What does this mean? This means that this delay was hardcoded by kRO into the exe at some point in the past. It is not something we have the capability of changing.


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#167 Necrohealiac

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 08:57 AM

so much for iRO custom changes
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#168 Zayaan

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 09:02 AM

Cinnamod asked me to look into this deeper. I dug into the configurable files for setting Fixed Delays, after cast delays, cast times, etc. Bowling bash has no entry in the file.

 

What does this mean? This means that this delay was hardcoded by kRO into the exe at some point in the past. It is not something we have the capability of changing.

 

How were you able to decrease the cooldown from 0.8s to 0.5s during 12/9/2010 maintenance then? And why did the cooldown disappear last time a kRO update undid iRO custom changes (faster Zen cast time, etc)?
 


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#169 Kadelia

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 09:04 AM

That can't be right camp. I was told in no uncertain terms that kro's settings are no what we have. So I cannot possibly be right. Please check again!
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#170 Campitor

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 09:11 AM

How were you able to decrease the cooldown from 0.8s to 0.5s during 12/9/2010 maintenance then? And why did the cooldown disappear last time a kRO update undid iRO custom changes (faster Zen cast time, etc)?
 

I was just a GM back then so I had to go through the old patch archive to find this. Looking at it they edited the the old way these skill delays were determined. But the method used has changed since 2010.


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#171 DemliekCake

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 09:46 AM

That can't be right camp. I was told in no uncertain terms that kro's settings are no what we have. So I cannot possibly be right. Please check again!

 

To my knowledge, kRO does have the *same* settings for BB as we do. 

You mean this?

 

 

 

1.3 Stalker spamming BB in NCT (kRO): 

 

 

Did you even saw this?

This only mean that at some point, iRo customization had been hardcoded into the iro's exe. It doesn't mean that it stop being iro's customization.

God. Even until today you don't even bother to read the first post.


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#172 Toxn

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 11:56 AM

I still don't see anywhere saying it's not because of shadow equipment though. Maybe I missed it in all nonsense.

But kRO has a crap load of shadow gears that do many many different things. A lot of which has gone untranslated.  They even for some stupid reason made costume enchants that can reduce your fixed cast time by 1 second.


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#173 Kadelia

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 12:55 PM

I still don't see anywhere saying it's not because of shadow equipment though. Maybe I missed it in all nonsense.

But kRO has a crap load of shadow gears that do many many different things. A lot of which has gone untranslated. They even for some stupid reason made costume enchants that can reduce your fixed cast time by 1 second.


Which is what I said pages back, and blackcrossy glazed over it

Edited by Kadelia, 15 March 2016 - 12:56 PM.

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#174 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 05:12 PM

Finally, I woke up to see a proper answer. It's a good day today.

Thanks for clarifying, Camp. That's all I really needed-regardless of whether it can be done or not.

As for the shadow gears and stuff, I still do not think it is due to any shadow gears for the BB. Just ridiculous to be thinking kRO would make a specific gear just to let you bypass BB cooldown. Camp has said kRO has changed the way skill delays settings worked. It is more probable that kRO did change its settings long ago that we couldn't- or more likely, never had the cooldown. I am more positive about this because it matches what I tested in other private servers as well- those that boasts being as close to kRO as possible. I was doing 6-7BBs in between each IB with cast times present because I couldn't get a hawk eye enchant so soon. The fixed cast time was there, and no cooldown icons were ever shown.

In any case, I will pursue no further (about forcing any actions or anything). If what I had said makes sense, I just hope that maybe a note about this issue could be included when the team meets kRO staff again. It would be useful for iRO's own balances as well to at least understand how changes can be done since the methods have changed. Just some hopeful thinking here.

Again, thank you for finally giving a -_- about the issue.

Edited by blackCROSSCY, 15 March 2016 - 05:20 PM.

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#175 hotel

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Posted 15 March 2016 - 07:15 PM

Thanks Camp. We can always count on you


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