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Bring back old evade/block to some extent


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#26 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:54 AM

Block rate could be a specific paladin class passive.
Final Evade rate could be a specific thief class passive.

20% initial block rate for pally's with a hard cap of 40%. Evade stacking pally or any other calss isn't an issue with the way it is now. Final evade can be utilized for thiefs/archers.

25% initial final evade rate for ninja class with a hard cap of 45%. Less tanky, less hp, less cc's than paladins and other classes. Also give them a 5% initial block rate with 10% hard cap.

40% additional hp passive for overlords. Reduce bloodyroar hp loss per second to .5% and increase attk bonus from from 60% to 100%.

15% final evade rate for savage, hardcap of 30%.


Something like this could be fine tuned. If you go max evade/aim they sacrifice that 125 stats into agi which loses alot of hp they could have instead. With testing, this so far seems decent.
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#27 Precrush

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:54 AM

You can get agi, dodge, hlt on every set part. You can get 4 of  agi, health, dodge, cdmg, crate on accessories. make no mistake, people will be able to get hp, atk speed, def, element dmg, crits, AND dodge in one gear. Now you could try to balance this, but it'd take a lot of work and changes to systems we've had from the start of the game. Just not worth it in my opinion, there's so much more to work on.

 


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#28 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:56 AM

You can stack evade while stacking Agi/CR/Hlt/Aim etc. Eva is on every piece of equipment except weapons, plus Stat/SPecial sockets.


As I said, you have to put the char on an even playing field. If a summoner or voker has 40% evade socket, then the thief/archer has the same. In the end with same sockets and maxed agi/evade/aim, thief/archer wins.
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#29 sean718

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 11:59 AM

Something like this could be fine tuned. If you go max evade/aim they sacrifice that 125 stats into agi which loses alot of hp they could have instead. With testing, this so far seems decent.

 

These values were tested privately.


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#30 StormHaven

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:02 PM

As I said, you have to put the char on an even playing field. If a summoner or voker has 40% evade socket, then the thief/archer has the same. In the end with same sockets and maxed agi/evade/aim, thief/archer wins.

 

in the end the Theif/Archer get crapped on from barb and xspam.


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#31 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:05 PM

These values were tested privately.


As much as I want to believe you, I feel people want proof or some sort. Its hard to just assume anyone is correct without official testing especially since people assume the worst when their class gets needed or drastic changes could happen.

Edited by falcoford, 08 April 2016 - 12:14 PM.

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#32 sean718

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:11 PM

As much as I want to believe you, I feel people want proof or some sort. Its hard to just assume anyone is correct without official testing especially she people assume the worst when their class gets needed or drastic changes could happen.

 

That would be nice. 


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#33 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:11 PM

in the end the Theif/Archer get crapped on from barb and xspam.

So what you're saying is you are not opposed to this buff to the other classes since apparently, it wont do anything except make those classes buffed live longer which is pretty good if you ask me.

Edited by falcoford, 08 April 2016 - 12:15 PM.

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#34 StormHaven

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:20 PM

So what you're saying is you are not opposed to this buff to the other classes since apparently, it wont do anything except make those classes buffed live longer which is pretty good if you ask me.

 

I've already proposed before to buff evade on agi based classes before, so no im not opposed to it. Am i opposed to letting every class stack evade to stupid levels again? Yes.


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#35 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:30 PM

I've already proposed before to buff evade on agi based classes before, so no im not opposed to it. Am i opposed to letting every class stack evade to stupid levels again? Yes.

there will be a cap of final evade rate. There would be no limit to evade, but there would be a cap on the %to missing. How much vit would u sacrifice to get the most amount of evade or aim? If people don't even go for aim, then they can focus on vit. The char that stack evade woldnt have to get that high vs one class, but could pass up the other class by so much. How much vit are you willing to sacrifice? These questions would be the next gen builds. Is it worth stacking evade aim on summoned even if you wont be able to hit the ninja with their highest %? They might as well stack vit at that point. Or would they even miss the ninjas who didn't even build that much evade, but are still high. Would balance be the best? There's so many options to think about. Would u want the 40% aim or 40% evade socket? See? So much to think about.
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#36 Apocryphos

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:31 PM

Thief&Archer sets need more final evade rate. Final Evade Rate IE the effect on best unity set.
Thief&Pally need more final block rate+100%block damage.


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#37 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:33 PM

Thief&Archer sets need more final evade rate. Final Evade Rate IE the effect on best unity set.
Thief&Pally need more final block rate+100%block damage.

This has nothing to do with the post, looking at the proposed changes or balances that could happen. We already discussed that paladin block rate would be changed back, but there would be a cap on it, therefore making your set bonus useless. Please read the thread before writing a post that does nothing to contribute.

Edited by falcoford, 08 April 2016 - 12:36 PM.

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#38 Apocryphos

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:50 PM

Its not possible to go back because evade disappearred when chain comboes came. With final evade rate it would work like the old evade rate and block will also work. You probably havent tested final evade rate absolute defense rate. These are the chance factors for block and evade rate. Because block was split into two stats block damage and block rate i suggested 100% block damage to give it the old feel of block again.

Edited by Apocryphos, 08 April 2016 - 12:51 PM.

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#39 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:55 PM

Its not possible to go back because evade disappearred when chain comboes came. With final evade rate it would work like the old evade rate and block will also work. You probably havent tested final evade rate absolute defense rate. These are the chance factors for block and evade rate. Because block was split into two stats block damage and block rate i suggested 100% block damage to give it the old feel of block again.


Evade is technically still there, it is just that people have enough aim to combat it very easily and capping evade.
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#40 OokamiNeko

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 02:39 PM

Not many seem to get why this sort of mechanism is noxious and toxic, but I shouldn't expect too much from anyone who can talk about "skill" in a PvP mode and ask for a way to avoid attacks without even moving.

Like, yeah. PvP is hard. Look, game, I'll flip this coin and if it lands on tail, dodge the next attack for me.

 

 

30% evade aren't 30% suvivability, but far more than that. Having a 30% chance to dodge a whole combo is far more than having 30% more hitpoints. Even 10% chance to dodge anything is an insult to anything that might have been called "skill", "competition" and the like. What kind of logic is that ? What kind of good would it do to have stacked players being able to escape combos of lower-geared ones, have Monks be EVEN more difficult to kill, and have Summoners not give a damn since a 10% decrease in their DPS still keeps them extremely high above the rest ? Not even talking about Gladiators, poor guys.


Edited by OokamiNeko, 08 April 2016 - 02:39 PM.

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#41 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 03:13 PM

Not many seem to get why this sort of mechanism is noxious and toxic, but I shouldn't expect too much from anyone who can talk about "skill" in a PvP mode and ask for a way to avoid attacks without even moving.

Like, yeah. PvP is hard. Look, game, I'll flip this coin and if it lands on tail, dodge the next attack for me.

 

 

30% evade aren't 30% suvivability, but far more than that. Having a 30% chance to dodge a whole combo is far more than having 30% more hitpoints. Even 10% chance to dodge anything is an insult to anything that might have been called "skill", "competition" and the like. What kind of logic is that ? What kind of good would it do to have stacked players being able to escape combos of lower-geared ones, have Monks be EVEN more difficult to kill, and have Summoners not give a damn since a 10% decrease in their DPS still keeps them extremely high above the rest ? Not even talking about Gladiators, poor guys.

It is obnoxious, but it makes them more even in terms of vsing invokers and summoners. Stacked players will always destroy the lower-geared ones. Let's not talk about things that are blatantly obvious.

 

Once again, I hate having to reiterate myself constantly. We are talking about people with the same level of equips. For example, if a summoner has 40% evade 20% acc socket, say the ninja has the same socket. 

 

For the gladiators, they do need a buff. I am not sure what, but the stumble hits the people who have block rate or evade similar to invoker barbarian. It just isn't instant cast. Stumble also decreases their evade by a huge % amount so they don't neccessarily have to focus too crazily on accuracy although it is nice to have. For example, a level 60 gladiator can hit a level 85 after they stumblebum them. 


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#42 5143121023173906760

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 03:18 PM

For example, if a summoner has 40% evade 20% acc socket, say the ninja has the same socket.


Back to the main problem, yay !
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#43 Apocryphos

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 04:06 PM

This is why sean proposed it to be class specified. final evade rate can be put into a thief/archer set's while the block damage+block chance go to ninja/paladin set's OR better yet just put it into the roar of victory buff. given whenever you enter pvp.


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#44 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 04:34 PM

This is why sean proposed it to be class specified. final evade rate can be put into a thief/archer set's while the block damage+block chance go to ninja/paladin set's OR better yet just put it into the roar of victory buff. given whenever you enter pvp.

I do not know who sean is. Anyways, I don't think it being in a set is a good idea. It takes away from the diversity of builds. I don't understand why having the final evade rate or block rate in sets is a better idea. Having aim/evade relevant again would mean people wouldn't just focus straight for hp and going tank, unless they wanted to. They can go for other viable builds. Having classes you are suggesting such as thief/archer and paladin have a free block rate/ final evade rate with also having stacked hp, just doesn't sound right. People going for evade aim and agi would force people to have less sockets on pure hp and be less tankier. There are so many different builds you could go for.

 

As I said in my earlier post, for examples : 

AGI/VIT/AIM/EVADE

AGI/VIT/AIM/CRIT DAMAGE

AGI/AIM/EVADE/CRIT RATE

AGI/AIM/VIT/CRIT RATE

AGI/AIM/CRIT RATE/CRIT DAMAGE

VIT/CRIT RATE/CRIT DAMAGE/AIM

 

The possibilities are endless. You could focus on one or two. You could even balance them out. Would you want to be able to miss less vs a ninja who balanced out on AGI/AIM/EVADE? If so, then try to build AIM. If you build more AIM, then you might miss out on other stats that you could have gotten. Would you want that 40% Crit damage socket? Would you want that 40% AIM 20% Evade socket? Or maybe even 40% Evade 20% Aim socket? The choices are plenty. Even if you stack evade, a cap would be implemented.

 

Would having that extra 40% Evade socket outweight the benefits of having VIT? Your build could already be at the cap final evade rate vs one particular character and their aim could already be capped at missing the % chance it misses at. Having that socket changed out or two of them for VIT could possibly be better since their AIM is low anyways. 

 

But wait, there could also be summoners who stacked AIM, AGI, and VIT. That means they must be very tanky and have high AIM. If you are a Ninja, maybe to be able to have the highest evade vs them, you would need those sockets. Oh wait a minute, if the summoner stacked AIM, AGI, and VIT, that must mean their Crit Rate and Crit Damage must not be capped. Their Crits will not do as much damage. 

 

There are countless scenarios that can alter the playing field.  


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#45 StormHaven

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 04:41 PM

You aren't getting the point through your thick skull, YOU CAN CAP EVERY SINGLE SPECIAL STAT IN THE GAME AS AN EVADE STACKER AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO. THERE IS NO GIVING UP ANYTHING. THere's no giving up CR, no giving up CD, no giving up Damage, no giving up health, no giving up anything. Seriously go find lvl85 Stacked players and look at their stats/sets, the higher levels you get the easier it is to stack everything at once.


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#46 falcoford

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 04:46 PM

You aren't getting the point through your thick skull, YOU CAN CAP EVERY SINGLE SPECIAL STAT IN THE GAME AS AN EVADE STACKER AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO. THERE IS NO GIVING UP ANYTHING. THere's no giving up CR, no giving up CD, no giving up Damage, no giving up health, no giving up anything. Seriously go find lvl85 Stacked players and look at their stats/sets, the higher levels you get the easier it is to stack everything at once.

If you switch out your 36 Vit card for AGI, you lose 36 Vit. You can switch out your 10% max HP 20% CR for AIM/EVADE. That is a sacrifice. Every HP socket you switch out makes you have less hp. Yes, I have seen their stats and they would be forced to balance it out. They can't choose 500% Crit damage, maximum crit rate, get AGI/VIT on all their items and sockets, Evade and AIM. They have to choose between them all.

 

Would you want AIM, AGI, CRIT DAMAGE, CRIT RATE, VIT, MAX PHYSICAL/MAGICAL, MIN PHYSICAL/MAGICAL for your weapon. That is a hell of a lot of choices to make. 


Edited by falcoford, 08 April 2016 - 04:51 PM.

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#47 OokamiNeko

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 01:06 AM

If you were to understand my point, then you wouldn't need to write anything twice. What is "blatantly obvious" is that throwing luck into PvP is an extremely bad idea for a number of reasons, including overall game health, balancing difficulties and fairness of PvP.

 

Giving more ways for stacked players to destroy lower-geared ones is nowhere near healthy, brilliant or even smart, it's just plainly stupid when doing anything in PvP already requires hundreds of hour, just to feel useful. 

 

Trying to balance things out by introducing another factor to an equation that already is difficult to solve brings a boatload of problems, and rarely solves any. People were having difficulties killing each other back when elements were didn't exist, and you can guess what happened afterwards : the devs added elements ! It's the most terrifying mess I've ever been able to witness on a game, and needs at least a complete overhaul in order for them to be a healthy option for PvP players. It made everything more complicated, and didn't balance anything out.

 

 

One can keep their Health socket cards and work on soulcrafting gear as well as premium outfits. Agi, Hlt and Eva on every gear part, and anyone can reach any given (reasonable) cap, while still having high accuracy against evade-heavy classes. The amount of efforts required to balance anything after having added another variable to this mess is just not worth the time.

 

 

All-in-all, this looks way better : https://forums.warpportal.com/index.php?/topic/195572-battlesquare-balancing-with-preset-gear-under-level-80/


Edited by OokamiNeko, 09 April 2016 - 01:08 AM.

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#48 falcoford

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 07:07 AM

If you were to understand my point, then you wouldn't need to write anything twice. What is "blatantly obvious" is that throwing luck into PvP is an extremely bad idea for a number of reasons, including overall game health, balancing difficulties and fairness of PvP.

 

Giving more ways for stacked players to destroy lower-geared ones is nowhere near healthy, brilliant or even smart, it's just plainly stupid when doing anything in PvP already requires hundreds of hour, just to feel useful. 

 

Trying to balance things out by introducing another factor to an equation that already is difficult to solve brings a boatload of problems, and rarely solves any. People were having difficulties killing each other back when elements were didn't exist, and you can guess what happened afterwards : the devs added elements ! It's the most terrifying mess I've ever been able to witness on a game, and needs at least a complete overhaul in order for them to be a healthy option for PvP players. It made everything more complicated, and didn't balance anything out.

 

 

One can keep their Health socket cards and work on soulcrafting gear as well as premium outfits. Agi, Hlt and Eva on every gear part, and anyone can reach any given (reasonable) cap, while still having high accuracy against evade-heavy classes. The amount of efforts required to balance anything after having added another variable to this mess is just not worth the time.

 

 

All-in-all, this looks way better : https://forums.warpportal.com/index.php?/topic/195572-battlesquare-balancing-with-preset-gear-under-level-80/

This will not work well. There is less incentive for people to pay real money if they did that. Even talking about easily saving up gold. It is never easy. You either grind hard or you pay money. There are always people who will never spend actual money and the only way to keep be competitive are those people who WILL spend money and actually do. I know people who refuse to spend money in games like this and will never spend actual money. Then there are other people who actually do spend money regardless of how much of a waste it is. Given those circumstances, it doesn't change. The people who give up don't even spend money in the first place while the ones that want to stay competitive will. 

 

Anyways, short story, People who spend money spend money. People who don't spend money don't spend money. End of discussion. 

 

As you talk about it, evade is basically useless. Aim is also useless. All those stats are generally useless which makes Vit the best. It would be amazing having stats other than Vit/CR/CD be the only good options for SC. 


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#49 5143121023173906760

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 07:55 AM

As you talk about it, evade is basically useless. Aim is also useless. All those stats are generally useless which makes SKILL worth it. It would be amazing having stats other than Vit/CR/CD be the only good options for SC. 

 

Sorry, I felt like I had to correct it.


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#50 falcoford

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 08:34 AM

falcoford, on 09 Apr 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:snapback.png

As you talk about it, evade is basically useless. Aim is also useless. All those stats are generally useless which makes SKILL worth it. It would be amazing having stats other than Vit/CR/CD be the only good options for SC. 

Sorry, I felt like I had to correct it.

Funny you say that. The classes that take the least amount of skill which is the Invoker, Summoner, and Twin would not benefit from this. The xspam classes do not benefit from block rate. 


Edited by falcoford, 09 April 2016 - 08:34 AM.

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