42 replies to this topic

[Popcorn]

Hello Dragon Saga Friends!

 

Here are my first results for the default skill damage calculation for PHYSICAL DAMAGE based classes/skills (some skills might have other formulas which still needs to be checked). The calculation is rather complicated, I hope I can make it understandable:

 

Let's assume we have a Level 80 Archer Class using the Skill Multishot Lv. 5 which states the following:

"Weapon Physical Attack Power 43.0% + 120"

 

The weapon of this char is enchanted to +7 and does a physical damage of 864-1422 (enchanted) and 608-1013 (base).

The char has an overall ATK max value of 7135, the min value is not visible, but can be calculated like this:

ATKmin = ATKmax - (TotalWeaponMax - TotalWeaponMin) which is for our example char:

ATKmin = 7135 - (1422-864) = 7135 - 558 = 6577

 

So we have this for our char:

 

Overall ATK Min = 6577, Overall ATK Max = 7135

STR Up = 239 (STR Up is the absolute STR value the char has, including items and bonus stats, this applies to all 4 stats: STR, HLT, INT, AGI)

Weapon Total PATK Min = 864, Total PATK Max = 1422
Weapon Base PATK Min = 608, Base PATK Max = 1013
Character Level = 80

Skill Power = 120 (the +120 from the description)

Skill Additional Damage = 43.0%

 

All these values are needed in the final damage calculation.

 

The final damage of one projectile of this skill is now calculated like this:

 

FinalDamage = RandomValue(OverallATKMin...OverallATKMax) + (STR * 2 + CharLevel * 6) + SkillPower +

(SkillAdditionalDamage (43%) of RandomValue(WeaponBasePATKMin...WeaponBasePATKMax))

 

translated to our char it is this:

 

FinalDamage = RandomValue(6577...7135) + (239 * 2 + 80 * 6) + 120 + (RandomValue(608...1013) / 100 * 43)

= RandomValue(6577...7135) + 958 + 120 + RandomValue(608...1013) * 0.43

 

Now just let's assume the 2 random values being exactly in the middle between the two possible values:

 

FinalDamage = 6856 + 958 + 120 + 810.5 * 0.43 = 6856 + 958 + 120 + 348.515 = 8282 (decimal fraction is truncated)

 

After THIS calculation, there are more calculations to adjust the damage to reflect the enemy's PDEF values and if the skill does damage in "phases", which I still need to "decrypt" how this is calculated. 

 

However, this is the basic default Skill Damage calculation for Physical Attack Skills. Magic Attack Damage is calculated differently. I will untangle this too and post it here when this is done.

 

 

Btw, STR is used for calculating the Overall ATK amount as well as for the Final Damage Calculation for physical skills as you can see in the formula.

 

[zirothos]

I see. it more complicated then i tough xD. So in the end most of the damage would do more than we anticipated, When you release The formula for magic i will test on one skill to see if i'm closer to what i put here. but even so the 2 awaken skill of the invoker are still lower than attended. maybe is cause they have a special formula. I know the ultimate skill of the invoker damage change when the  Cassiopeia update was release, I,m almost possitive that the damage before the update was close to what i put here.

 

So thx for the BIG Formula for physical attack.   we can see more clearly how the game work.

[Precrush]

So str ain't completely useless after all, since with like 1k str you'll get at least that +2k dmg before def calculations. And then the extra from that total value calculation. I think 2x is a bit low though, could be 3x or 4x.

 

It's funny how the skill description shows those 2 values (43% +120 in this case). Firstly, it's rather confusing since that already clearly seems to be a formula. And then on top of that you don't actually do anything with those 2 values, you need to go grap your calculator, open this page and go to work. And you couldn't even do that until now! It'd be nice if it just used your current values and counted that up for you in the description, but guess that'd be hard to do.

Edited by Precrush, 01 May 2016 - 06:21 AM.

[Agitodesu]

1. RandomValue(OverallATKMin...OverallATKMax) This is the foundation of damage apparently according to your equation the minimum value of this is the least amount of damage you can hit in the game.
2. (SkillAdditionalDamage (43%) of RandomValue(WeaponBasePATKMin...WeaponBasePATKMax)) This is probably why skills don't do damage.
3. ​(STR * 2 + CharLevel * 6) + SkillPower    This is noting approximately 1500 damage on average for most endgame Patk players or less.

 

 

​Do you have the ability to change the equation or is that out of reach?

Edited by Agitodesu, 01 May 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[Popcorn]

For sure I have the ability, but everything needs to be discussed with team beforehand.

However, as for the STR, in my opinion a maybe better equation could be (STR * CharLevel / 10 + CharLevel * 6) fo example. At least this would push STR a bit.

 

[zirothos]

i see.that make sense, if that can make some balance in the damage output in the end that would be great. i hope the game will have better and easier formula for the future^^ so it can be easier to change if needed

[shadoworx]

Perhaps it's possible to calculate these formulae based on the character stats in the moment, and then instead of displaying '43.5% + 80' which as we have found out does not actually represent the power of the skill, display the result of the formula, based on the lowest possible damage and the highest possible? Example from my character:

 

Sharpshooting level 6 touts 475% + 820 damage.

Level 74, 265 STR, 6485 minimum ATK, 16182 maximum ATK

Legend +20 Heirloom Bone Bow has 3477-13174 total ATK, 1021-3933 base ATK

 

Minimum damage from Sharpshooting comes out to 6485 + (265*2 + 74*6) + 820 + 4.75(1021) = 13129

Maximum damage from Sharpshooting comes out to 16182 + (265*2 + 74*6) + 820 + 4.75(3933) = 36658

 

Please tell me if my calculations are wrong, or if sharpshooting counts as a phased attack, because even on level 4 mobs, I cannot achieve that much damage. My best is 26066.

 

The damage would be displayed in a manner like this:

When we take defense into account, the naive side of me would like to think that a mob of a particular level has a set amount of defense shared with all mobs of that level (unless they're enchanted); so maybe once the defense formulae are posted, you could adjust what is shown here after applying the defense of an unenchanted mob equal to your level.

 

A monumental task to replace the tooltip of every skill in the game, I know. But the current display of power for a skill is, as we have found out, not even close to the truth, and may as well be replaced by an adjective that says "strong" or "weak".

 

Or, make a little picture in the game to illustrate the damage formula for the players to see for themselves without having to go into this thread!

[Agitodesu]

The str boost would be great. This would have 0 impact on skills which is very weird and be a nice stat to play around for testing purposes because from what I see the equation extremly simplified looks like this

Final dmg = RV(Weapon attack range) + (Flat stats) +  RV(Base dmg x skill)

This section has a minor str relation.

I would suggest STR x (character level/2) as an alternative if the (Str x CL).

 

Popcorn, if you could possibly split the stat for example my equation for pve and yours for pvp. I could explain the reason if you'd like but I'll just say that given the numbers ranging from 300(normal)-500(Stacked)-1000(Focused) Str you should know what it would do to pve. For pvp, most Patkers end game do around like 200 damage so I mean it wouldn't hurt to see what it can actually do and work around if it does anything ridiculous. This can be a temporary alternative to working around buffing skills for Patkers. For mages I'm not sure about buffing damage (Int) to anyone except invokers. Invokers end game with a +20 staff do less than 70 damage per ball without element. Since element is going to be reworked so should the damage they do.

 

I would also like to include that this buff would also enforce skills that "hit more often" rather than "the damage it's supposed to do". For example something that looks like the skill "death bound" when given the str buff would do a lot of damage, but is outclassed in damage by just pressing x 2 times or the red tornado with like a pathetic % damage included. Thus it would look like elements as the skills itself do not provide massive boost, all the damage will look alike rather than the satisfying feel of a strong skill doing nearly as much damage as a simple sword dance. But in the end I wouldn't mind this buff at all since a lot of Patk classes end game lack "base" damage (in respect to elemental damage). You should do the str buff, but rework it once more if you are allowed to mess with the skill % ratio in the future.

Edited by Agitodesu, 02 May 2016 - 01:38 AM.

[Apocryphos]

Hello Dragon Saga Friends!

 

Here are my first results for the default skill damage calculation for PHYSICAL DAMAGE based classes/skills (some skills might have other formulas which still needs to be checked). The calculation is rather complicated, I hope I can make it understandable:

 

Let's assume we have a Level 80 Archer Class using the Skill Multishot Lv. 5 which states the following:

"Weapon Physical Attack Power 43.0% + 120"

 

The weapon of this char is enchanted to +7 and does a physical damage of 864-1422 (enchanted) and 608-1013 (base).

The char has an overall ATK max value of 7135, the min value is not visible, but can be calculated like this:

ATKmin = ATKmax - (TotalWeaponMax - TotalWeaponMin) which is for our example char:

ATKmin = 7135 - (1422-864) = 7135 - 558 = 6577

 

So we have this for our char:

 

Overall ATK Min = 6577, Overall ATK Max = 7135

STR Up = 239 (STR Up is the absolute STR value the char has, including items and bonus stats, this applies to all 4 stats: STR, HLT, INT, AGI) *This is character total?*

Weapon Total PATK Min = 864, Total PATK Max = 1422
Weapon Base PATK Min = 608, Base PATK Max = 1013
Character Level = 80

Skill Power = 120 (the +120 from the description)

Skill Additional Damage = 43.0%

 

All these values are needed in the final damage calculation.

 

The final damage of one projectile of this skill is now calculated like this:

 

FinalDamage = RandomValue(OverallATKMin...OverallATKMax) + (STR * 2 + CharLevel * 6) + SkillPower +

(SkillAdditionalDamage (43%) of RandomValue(WeaponBasePATKMin...WeaponBasePATKMax))

 

translated to our char it is this:

 

FinalDamage = RandomValue(6577...7135) + (239 * 2 + 80 * 6) + 120 + (RandomValue(608...1013) / 100 * 43)

= RandomValue(6577...7135) + 958 + 120 + RandomValue(608...1013) * 0.43

 

Now just let's assume the 2 random values being exactly in the middle between the two possible values:

 

FinalDamage = 6856 + 958 + 120 + 810.5 * 0.43 = 6856 + 958 + 120 + 348.515 = 8282 (decimal fraction is truncated)

 

After THIS calculation, there are more calculations to adjust the damage to reflect the enemy's PDEF values and if the skill does damage in "phases", which I still need to "decrypt" how this is calculated. 

 

However, this is the basic default Skill Damage calculation for Physical Attack Skills. Magic Attack Damage is calculated differently. I will untangle this too and post it here when this is done.

 

 

Btw, STR is used for calculating the Overall ATK amount as well as for the Final Damage Calculation for physical skills as you can see in the formula.

Testing at windia plains
Lvl 40 Pathfinder

Skill Sharpshooting lvl 5 450%+800

here's the minimum with the formula mentioned

here's the maximum with the formula mentioned

The max i've hit in game is a 7.9k on lvl 4 mob's

The part I'm questioning in the formula is  (STR * 2 + CharLevel * 6) I'm assuming STR is the str up or the character total? 
I'm guessing this missing 700 damage is from defense a lvl 4 mob has?

[Precrush]

So Str*(Char Lvl/2) right? That'd put the flat bonus on 1k str (which I think is a good point to compare the different stats from, since you have to actively go for the stat to get this) at get 8.5k dmg increase. That sounds pretty darn good to me. I like it.

Edited by Precrush, 01 May 2016 - 08:33 PM.

[Popcorn]

Testing at windia plains
Lvl 40 Pathfinder

Skill Sharpshooting lvl 5 450%+800
 

here's the minimum with the formula mentioned

here's the maximum with the formula mentioned

The max i've hit in game is a 7.9k on lvl 4 mob's

The part I'm questioning in the formula is  (STR * 2 + CharLevel * 6) I'm assuming STR is the str up or the character total? 
I'm guessing this missing 700 damage is from defense a lvl 4 mob has?

 

7.9k is perfectly fine between your calculated min and max values. Reaching the absolute maximum with 2 RNGs is nearly impossible and very rare. I tried the thing myself again by "debugging" the source code and clearly seeing all values in this calculation. I can do a statistical test run later with the original RNG how often the absolute maximum could be (nearly) reached. The chance of this RNG to generate a value in the mid-field of the range is higher than to get values near the minimum or maximum. That's the nature of a lower quality RNG. When it comes to RNG a dev always have to consider the distribution quality vs. speed. Very high quality RNGs are awesome slow.

 

Btw the the Spee monsters at Lv. 4 have an abs. PDef of 68.

 

However, for higher level monsters the def calculation is even more complicated, because they have damages drops and such.

 

For the STR calculation STR Up is used.

 

 

(this is a testing char for sure, so ignore the 32k+ stats on this sheet )

[Vossel]

so i calculated it for the average damage of the Gust slash

ATKmin-18470

ATKmax-50315

average-34392

enchanted min-12290,max-44135

min-3540,max-12689

average-8114

strengh-655

character level-85

skill power-620

skill additional damage-260%

34392+655*2+85*6+620+8114*2.6

34392+1310+510+620+21096=57928

I tested the skill against monster in nail hill and Advanced windia plains but the maximum damage i have seen for nail hill was ~40k and for the advanced windia plains only a bit higher maybe 41k.

so the monster must have incredible defence, because i don't believe lvl 4 Monster are supposed to decrease the damage by around 17k

[Popcorn]

Again, there are TWO random number generators involved, the range of your ATK min and ATK max is very large (31485 for enchanted, 9149 for unenchanted).

Due to this circumstances you usually get a value in the mid-field of the range. 

 

I checked the formula multiple times with different classes, skills and ATK values and the formula is right. Such calculations are not black or white. There are many shades of gray in this calculations. 

 

It's up to you if you believe me that the formula is right or not, even if you decide to not believe me, the formula does not change

 

[Vossel]

The damage i calculated was the mid-field of that range, if i would calculate with the maximum damage it would be

50315+1310+510+620+12689*2.6=85746

Edited by Vossel, 02 May 2016 - 07:48 AM.

[Vossel]

 

 

FinalDamage = RandomValue(6577...7135) + (239 * 2 + 80 * 6) + 120 + (RandomValue(608...1013) / 100 * 43)

= RandomValue(6577...7135) + 958 + 120 + RandomValue(608...1013) * 0.43

 

FinalDamage = 6856 + 958 + 120 + 810.5 * 0.43 = 6856 + 958 + 120 + 348.515 = 8282 (decimal fraction is truncated)

 

 

 

 

so i calculated it for the average damage of the Gust slash

ATKmin-18470

ATKmax-50315

average-34392

enchanted min-12290,max-44135

min-3540,max-12689

strengh-655

character level-85

 

How about we replace the RandomValue of the weapon base damage(min-3540,max-12689) with the weapon enchanted damage(min-12290,max-44135) and reduce the range because ~30k are obviously too much. 

So i suggest we may take this example "Final Damage = (RandomValue(~35k...44135)*skillAdditionalDamage)+SkillPower+(strengh*(Playerlvl/10))"

or we just change the "= RandomValue(6577...7135) + 958 + 120 + RandomValue(608...1013) * 0.43" into "= (RandomValue(6577...7135) + 958 + 120 + RandomValue(608...1013)) * 0.43"

[Popcorn]

That first needs to be discussed and calculated how this affects all classes and gameplay. It's not only about the overlord, you know?

[Vossel]

i know it is about all classes but since i only play an Overlord with such good gear i can only tell, complain and give examples about that class

Edited by Vossel, 05 May 2016 - 12:12 PM.

[Rainnowx]

"2000 years later..." *heh*

 

Spoiler

 

Edit: 

There's something else I should mention.

Some skills say "Weapon's magical/physical attack power" and others say only "magical/physical attack power". There is a difference in the calculation.

 

If the skill says "Weapon's ..." only the total magical/physical attack values of the weapon are taken. Not the values from the stats sheet of your character. For these skills values from accessories for example are not taken into account.

 

I had a closer look over the formula and it's kinda not that easy as it sounds in the descriptions.

From what I see the rings for example HAVE a sense. I will try to untangle the whole formula and post some more detailed informations on Monday. [...]

 

[...]

The char has an overall ATK max value of 7135, the min value is not visible, but can be calculated like this:

ATKmin = ATKmax - (TotalWeaponMax - TotalWeaponMin) which is for our example char:

ATKmin = 7135 - (1422-864) = 7135 - 558 = 6577

 

From the calculation on the last quote, I would guess Accessories alter the damage range...?

And that regardless of whether the effect is "ATK/MATK+" or "Min.(P/M)/Max.(P/M)+"; I think both type increase the upper and downer limits. Difference being that the first type can be increased when SCrafting.

Edited by Rainnowx, 21 June 2016 - 11:27 AM.