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[Question] Regarding "Summoned" skills / Summoner Final Damage Amplification


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#1 Popcorn

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 08:41 PM

Hello Dragon Saga Friends,

 

at this point we want to ask the community about something that might needed to be changed, but since this might affect the PvP gameplay it's important to ask you guys what you think about it.

 

"Summoned" skills

First thing to ask is about the so-called "summoned" skills (Spark Rock for example). The game does not really state which of the skills are summoned skills and which are not. The unfair part of this generally is that some classes have a lot more "summoned" skills on which they have to rely (for example the Sorcerer class). Now these summoned skills have 3 big problems:

 

  • 1) they do not deal element damage
  • 2) they aren't affected by the F7 skill to increase the damage
  • 3) they have their own aim rate and do not use the aim rate from their "parent" (this is why the former devs decided to take the aim/evade rate calculation out of the game and this is why I decided not to put it back in for PvP)

I would like to hear your opinions on that.

 

Another big problem which possibly is unbalancing the game is

 

The Summoners Final Damage Amplification

 

If I did not make any mistake and calculated everything right the summoner is able to have a final damage amplification of 41% passively, which means that a summoner is able to get 41% additional damage calculated from the final matk damage value with every damage a summoner is dealing. 

I would like to hear opinions on that matter.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Edit: Please keep the discussion clean - as always. A discussion with insulting and harassment is not helpful for us to finally find ways to balance the game. Thanks.

 


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#2 Apocryphos

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 09:10 PM

Summoned Skills / or what I like to call stand-alone skills
Have the benefit of working while the under a status infliction like blizzard, magnet, traps they do not cease to work until there duration's expire. They have there utility. I honestly see overpowered classes if these skills get elements. Especially when these skills start to stack, skills like spark rock blizzard tesla backdraft stack fairly quickly in pvp if these were doing full damage along with elements it'd be a massive overkill considering the changes being applied this Wednesday.
 

 

The Summoners Final Damage Amplification

My opinion, as from the endgame perspective, is that it is overpowered. but is a necessity considering how tanky classes become at endgame especially the mage class with there sustainable heals.
Many player's have devoted many skill points to this class, it'd be a shame if they lost all there work. I'd honestly focus on physical classes getting boosts similar to the final damage amplifications, classes that come into mind are overlord, ninja, savage, destroyer(Yes i said it, call it bias but their damage doesn't compare to what the summoner can do.)

OffTopic: Class Elemental Modifiers instead of universal -50%. Make classes fit there roles. Thoughts?


Edited by Apocryphos, 04 October 2016 - 12:51 PM.

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#3 Starkespada1

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 09:39 PM

I still do not think sorcerers need element damage incorporated into their "summoned skills" all sorcerers need is more matk to make use of their skills, suggestion change some passives of classes that use skills based off final att/matk.

 

Like for magician class just make "focus" based off final matk and it would boost their damage a bit and you wouldn't need to give them element damage what so ever. Sorcerers have plenty of AOE skills they just need raw damage from matk no need for elements.

 

I'd be happy if you guys just fixed sorcerer's pos set I'd take that over the ability to use element on my summoned skills, it gives 22% evade rate at 6 piece which is useless to the class ( i know this is about element damage on skills and summoners final att) but this is one of the things that has been bothering for years. would love crit damage as a 6 set effect


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#4 Popcorn

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 09:45 PM

What do you think about making elemental damage available to summoned skills for PvE only? I got a lot of complains from pure PvE players about the lack of elemental damage. I see the point that in PvP elemental damage from summoned skills might not be useful, but in my personal opinion it would do no harm in PvE.

 

About the boost of physical classes, I agree to Apocryphos that they could need a boost. The problem is that 41% of Damage Amplification is still high. I am unsure if that can stay in that high amount or if there should be compromise for that, like lowering the overall value of the Summoner's skill a bit and adding a similar buff for the physical classes. Sorta "meeting in the middle"

 


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#5 5143121023173906760

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 09:49 PM

I am going list of all skills that are considered as a summon on the game so people don't get wrong while talking about the said skills. I know that I am mossing some and they will appear when I'll have some time to test them

Warrior :
Spoiler




Magician :
Spoiler





Archer :
Spoiler




Thief :
Spoiler




Dragonkin classes :
Spoiler




Item skill :
Spoiler


Special mentions to the following skills :
  • [Warlock]Thunder Break
  • [Warlock]Fire Ink
  • [Ninja]Protect Edge
For not even being considered as summons and doing worse.

Edited by 5143121023173906760, 28 January 2017 - 12:36 AM.

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#6 Agitodesu

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 09:52 PM

For a reversal, the final damage amplification is nearly on every class but works on base of whatever. It's that summoners have all of it affecting total.

 

Either make every classes passive work like the summoners or make them useless like everyone elses.

 

Almost every class have % boost, only summoners and overlords have the final attack boost. Only difference is that summoners outdps overlords by a godlike amount.

 

 

ie. Dragoons defense % boost is final instead of base so they can be tanky.

Sorcerors have can get over 33% matk boost but it isnt final

Invokers have 35% which is pretty close to summoners

and so on. 

 

Basically what Apocryphos said earlier.

 

 

Elements are basically 99% of the damage at any point in the game in pvp.

 

In 49 I die from elements in less than 2 seconds with a +20 back. while impossible to die from those with no elements.

in 81 I die from elements, summoners, and Dark knight(summon). All other classes are irrelevant unless elements are involved.

 

Basically elements are high consistent damage. Classes that benefit from elements have 2 things in common. 1. Attack speed. 2. chain combo based class.

Normal damage is inconsistent low damage. This is basically every non chain combo based classes. 1 thing in common with these are they all lack kill potential.

 

 


Edited by Agitodesu, 03 October 2016 - 10:13 PM.

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#7 Starkespada1

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 09:54 PM

I don't think anyone would be against making element affect all skills in pve


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#8 5143121023173906760

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 10:13 PM

only summoners and overlords have the final attack boost. Only difference is that summoners outdps overlords by a godlike amount.

Sorcerors have can get over 33% matk boost but it isnt final

Sorcerers have 15 % of Final Damage Amplification, all thanks to their Warlock's passive skill.

Edited by 5143121023173906760, 03 October 2016 - 10:14 PM.

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#9 Agitodesu

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 10:14 PM

Sorcerers have 15 % of Final Damage Amplification, all thanks to their Warlock's passive skill.

I should have reworded it to over 33% but it all isn't final.


Edited by Agitodesu, 03 October 2016 - 10:18 PM.

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#10 Apocryphos

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 10:43 PM

Meeting in the middle wouldn't suffice for the physical classes mainly because almost all armors have higher physical defense values than magic defense values.
Thieves double attack passive doesn't proc elements either.

Edited by Apocryphos, 03 October 2016 - 10:46 PM.

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#11 Fliederduft78

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 11:15 PM

I would suggest to lower the summoners final damage buff to 25%. Still pretty tough, due to their sky high dps.

After that in my opinion I agree that putting the damage buffs of the other classes on final values. By doing so all of them should be slightly higher than the summoner one and this should compensate the higher physical defense values on armors and the "missing/lower" dps of physical classes. Plus the skillpoints of the summoners invested on the buffs would not be "wasted" cause the buff is still useful and all of us know that even with that "nerf" the summoner would still be a very tough enemy to face and winning against those would still not be that easy.

Just my 2 cents.......regarding "meeting in the middle"...

.


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#12 Elijazz

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 02:28 AM

Too much rework on this class is not a good idea, it's simply nerfing the class to the point that it will become the next paladin. It's better to focus on other physical class  like overlord, ninja, and paladin since they need some love and to compete with tier 1 class. Rework their skills (I know it's hard but I think this is what we need right now). You need some ideas on how you can make them useful again in game especially in pvp/ew/bsq.


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#13 Semitron

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 10:04 AM

The main issue about the sorcerer class over the past trough years, as the groggy system and the Elemental system got implanted, has simply been the fact that most of the classe's skill, deals only raw damage, non Elemental in pve or pvp, which is making the class to a certain degree COMPLETELY USELESS, at certain boss fights, which depands fast groggy for fast kill (elga is an example, but then again, soloing it is a bit overkill)

 

However, thats the most part of the PvE part as stated above.....as a player, who's been maining a Sorcerer, in the old Dragonica server, since about 2012, ive seen the issue the class has been having over the past years, after the element and groggy system...and as a PvP'er i find it really unfortunant, how such a fun class can be so bad, when it comes to damage dealing, since afterall, there's JUST 1 skill, that deals raw element damage (besides the basic atatcks) and that is infact, the rockets, Relaying on freeze > rockets > basic atatck > repeat, at all times, is getting pretty boring at times, infact it gets pretty boring ver fast, since you end up dealing 0 damage, to people with high hp and you will eventually find urself, and the class ur playing in a weak and bad spot.

 

And this issue has been bothering me, for so damn long now, so id REALLY appriciate, if we could sit down and see, how nice it would have been if we just could be able to have ALL the Sorcerer skills be able to hit fresh element damage, so they can finaly be useful in Boss fights with groggy system and PvP!

 

I just.....just....hope something's gona change for the sake of the class, its dying, since nobody bothers playing a weak class, in a weak spot....;/


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#14 Precrush

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 10:49 AM

I think there's no logical reason for summoned skills to not do element damage. I'd change them for consistancy and take care of balancing some other way. Huge buff to warlocks or w/e those were called, but I don't think it'd be unreasonable.

I (still) think summoners need serious damage nerf even if you buff the others. Having everyone run around with that kind of damage would break the game in my opinion. Sure people have used a lot to gear up their shamans, but it's not like they'd lose any of that with a nerf. Nerfing summoners might seem a more negative thing than buffing all the other classes, but in reality all it'd do different is make elga harder. In either case you gotta take a delve into attacks/defenses/skill damages to find a good spot.

But I already voiced my opinion about the damage balance in that other thread. To me it makes no difference if it's final or base the %, as long as we move toward a world were classes have around the same damage output. Maybe base would make sense for consistancy again, but then again I think base buffs are dumb to begin with since they are just less rewarding.
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#15 Apocryphos

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 08:40 PM

Standalone skills/Summoned skills usually come attached with some form of CC, like shock, flinch, frost, when these stack(placed in the same vicinity) damage becomes really high. I'd stay away from adding elements to these. Simply cause these skills already have utility, from a pvp perspective this would not be a wise decision. Is my opinion but why should these have element I'm curious what makes people want elements on summoned/standalone skills? Especially with how elements will work tomorrow.


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#16 Coolsam

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 10:41 PM

Standalone skills/Summoned skills usually come attached with some form of CC, like shock, flinch, frost, when these stack(placed in the same vicinity) damage becomes really high. I'd stay away from adding elements to these. Simply cause these skills already have utility, from a pvp perspective this would not be a wise decision. Is my opinion but why should these have element I'm curious what makes people want elements on summoned/standalone skills? Especially with how elements will work tomorrow.

 

What about cases with those that don't? Vulcan, Rising Storm, Auto-shot, etc. With zero knockback or other types of cc? Those are designed for sheer damage. However with the exception of maybe Vulcan due to it's high damage calculation, they can be pretty lack-luster damage wise.


Edited by Coolsam, 04 October 2016 - 10:43 PM.

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#17 Precrush

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 11:32 PM

Lot's of non summon skills have other effects too. Sure adding elements to them would make em a lot stronger in pvp, but honestly I don't think that'll result in anything bad. +It's not all golden for summoned skills, they are harder to hit. I appriciate simple things, thus I'd like all skills to work the same in terms of where they get their damage.

If summoned skills are too strong after, could increase cooldowns or lower the normal damage they do.
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#18 Fliederduft78

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 11:38 PM

Why not?

 

I see no reason why summoned skills deal no element damage in PVP. Honestly even with activated element damage the classes you guys call "being the bottom of everything" will not suddenly become superior because of this.

 

How about "rain of fire" and "blizzard"?

 

Rain of fire belongs to the invoker class, one class that is considered to be part of the top tier. This skill does do already very high elemental damage. While "blizzard" from the sorcerer class, one of the bottom tier classes, does not. If you get frozen your team mates can rescue you plus I heard this skill does react to the matchstick(?). And in EW the debuff skill of the priest can help you out, would maybe get the people to doing even more team work.......Plus I heard you guys are able to avoid blizzard..........I took blizzard as example because it freezes.

This step will not make the summoner less OP, but maybe give some bottom tier classes a little something to use.

 

 


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#19 HakannBlast

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 12:39 AM

"Summoned" skills

for sorceror this class only need new skills like paladin and Rogue got on New origin since they lack good late game ones

 

final damage and hp on summoner should be guted right now is a combination of staff mastery and body activation and thats not fair for dragoon and sorceror since is  also a much  better steroid atm

 

 

 


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#20 Schokolade

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 02:26 AM

Good day. Sorry for my bad English. I think it is unfair summon skills do not make element damage. I think every class shall be same. Big classes have all, they have fast shoot and element damage. I think that is unfair. If you play class that has no fast shoot. I play with my skills. I go kill mission and dungeon and outside with my skills. Why I  cannot use my skills in PVP too and get same element damage? Same damage on skills big classes have on x shoot. Big classes have all, fast x and skills do element damage. I want go in PVP and have element on my skill too. I think I can play better with. I can play more fair with.  I think all classes shall be same, all shall make element damage. 

 

Summoner are too strong. They kill all. I think they need nerf. My dad plays summoner. But he stop because no fun all killing was so easy. My dad say buff are the problem. I think buff are problem too. Maybe you can make buff lower and bring fun back? Thank you for reading.

 

 


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#21 monkeydo

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 02:52 AM

I have no contribution on the summon skills but I feel summoners are simply too strong compare to other classes. No other classes can make a character with 100K+ hp, 20+k def died in few seconds cos of x spam.

I know its very difficult to find the right number, was wondering whether developers do trial run and play around with the numbers or maybe can player to participate in it


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#22 Vossel

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 05:53 AM

I will talk about PvP:

In my opinion Summoner should not have element damage on their helix shot because it triples their amount of hits, besides The Dark Knight is a huge problem, not in term of design but in term of Damage. The Dark Knight should either get disabled in PvP or get nerfed in Damage. He has a charging hit on the ground which can crit up to 40k+ to a level 85 Overlord with full +20 PoS gear and +20 undead bone gloves(~31k Defence, ~ 18k Magic Defence) or his attack where he shoots homing bubles which deal also ~4k as normal damage


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#23 Apocryphos

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 07:34 AM

Well thats very surprising. With the way elements are suppose to work I'd think people would be on the side where summoned skills will deal high enough damage as is. Honestly I wouldn't wanna see spark rock dealing 2k each hit under magnet along with tesla blizzard vulcan while the casters are free to add more cc or focus on other matters. Yes there are summoned skills that lack luster but thats an issue with defense to attack values and not an elemental issue.
I'd like to see everyones opinion after the next patch.

Edited by Apocryphos, 05 October 2016 - 07:36 AM.

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#24 Popcorn

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 08:17 AM

First of all: The element system doesn't change. It was correctly calculated on the server side. 

Second: We won't base our decision regarding a PvP trial period for element damage on summoned skills only on the opinion of one guild.

 


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#25 Agitodesu

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 08:24 AM

People here have the misconception that sorcerers are bottom tier in pvp. They are literally top tier in group pvp and bottom tier in regular pvp. They are not bottom tier in regular pvp because of "lack of elemental damage" they lack the ability to catch. They have the ability to lock someone with decently high damage enough that they actually have kill potential.

Compared to ninja,savage,overlord,dragoon,destroyer,sentinel...they have 0 chance to kill someone alone in high tier bsq without getting themselves killed. Because of whatever reason Patk is just plain dumb. The goal in game in the eyes of a Patker even with max elemental damage, is to help the mage classes kill everyone.


So if nothing is changing stacking 1000 dark resist will block 1000 damage of any type? Just like how it is right now?

Edited by Agitodesu, 05 October 2016 - 08:27 AM.

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