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Battlegrounds: Pros and Cons of Randomizing Sides?


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#1 Ralis

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 04:08 PM

Heim's response to why we now have the 5 minute side-switching cooldown:

The timer on BG has to remain as is to prevent a specific exploit that many farmers were doing. Their ill-mannered behavior is why it is what it is.

The other option is make the sides random, which I actually would like alot but would cause some rage I think.


I personally like this option much more than the current cooldown. It promotes fighting and makes these fights much more entertaining and varying, as you never know who will be on what side, and it can change from fight to fight. This means not everyone is rushing one side that a certain individual is on, and means everyone really has to give it their all to win fights, which was what Battlegrounds were designed to do in the first place.

Discuss. Would you like this option? What good and bad can come from it?
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#2 SamuelAdams

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 04:11 PM

Yes. I've suggested this before. I like it. Cept when alts enter might be a problem. -.-
Oh is bg fixed on valk yet? (Flav and Tierra)

Edited by SamuelAdams, 09 December 2010 - 04:11 PM.

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#3 Ralis

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 04:16 PM

According to people on the patch thread, yes, 80-99 can now enter.

Alts would be a problem, yes, but that would be one thing this should mitigate... People bringing alts to farm. Hopefully it'll get more actual fights going.
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#4 Evionne

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 04:25 PM

Pros:
Variety of Battle
Check your Friend's Skills and Abilities
No BG Cooldown

Cons:
Low offensive classes could get unlucky and get all on the same side
Parties might be broken up (Depending on programing)

Edit// that's just off the top of my head, semi-busy. :P

Edited by Evionne, 09 December 2010 - 04:25 PM.

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#5 Ralis

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 04:47 PM

Well, by randomizing it that really shouldn't happen too often.

I can see the party issue. I wish there was some way for everyone on a side to just like... Read as if they're in the same party.
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#6 Saisotsu

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 05:23 PM

Pros:
The Battlegrounds would be more of a battleground than a place to earn items and would serve as an any-time WoE Environment without all the silly outnumbered nonsense and less item burning.

Dominate over your friends Because you're forced to. No hard feelings anymore.

Guilds can be seperated If coded right, that would be nice.. people are too alliance based in RO anyway, better that they have a reason to kill each other once in while. Sports are no fun if you aren't forcibly practicing against friends a lot, why not the same with an MMO. I'm sure you can learn a lot by fighting your "oh so tough" guild leader or friend on occasion so that you can learn new strategies to up your defenses or offenses in a WoE environment.. or even figure out what's wrong with your friend's play style to make them a better party member. Unlike ordinary pvp, you get rewards AND WoE rules here, and due to randomization, could even learn to be a better overall player.


Possible Frustrations:
Longer Battleground battle durations people wasting time because they lack appropriate people on their sides would occur more if they're not on a "winning" side or their friend's side.

Lack of a well-rounded team Let's say it's not a WoE day and it just so happens that enough alts are available to play tierra. Oh, but darn, one team has 2 Arch Bishop and 2 Warlockes while one has 2 Guillotine Crosses and a Royal Guard that feel like actually playing during the tierra battle. The Warlockes and Bishops will be ranting and raving that they can't be on the side with the food storage breakers every time since nobody else is actually participating. Also, if people stop trying to put alts up because they would ruin the power balance if on their team, the battlegrounds could keep going through long waiting periods before starting unless immediately after WoE or some other major occurrence. Would you happily sign an alt in when there's a chance that it's stuck with you? ..probably. But what if a non-alt has a chance to show up, there's only 1 more person needed anyway. Would you like to wait for a few more minutes? Maybe.. And the more time you wait on these perplexing decisions, the less points you'll get.

Those with bad luck are likely to avoid the battlegrounds completely It needs a lot more people there whenever possible, especially if people have enough Medals of Honor or something but you need one for a character.

Some people are a little too attached to guild-mates, friends, and lovers so there may be people that would otherwise demolish everyone on the other team becoming less effective without certain people with them or just wouldn't try because they know someone else needs the points more. They may even make sure that THEIR SIDE (which you are on) loses for the sake of their friends on the opposite side. A party may not always be large enough to accommodate the number of people in a guild interested in playing battlegrounds if it's coded to keep parties together. If it is coded that way and a party is too big for the slots available, they wouldn't stay together anyway, let alone if there are more people in a guild that slots on a side. So, it would probably be ill-received when there's few people wanting to play in the battlegrounds, but well received when there are many. Not everyone parties or guilds up with all of their friends at all times, so it's bound to have issues to someone in these regards no matter the coding.


I like both options.. Though.. I'm biased toward randomization since it does not affect me. If Heim says people will be angry, though, maybe they will be..

EDIT: To make more sense for GeeGee?

Edited by Saisotsu, 11 December 2010 - 11:32 AM.

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#7 FoxyWoxy

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 05:41 PM

They may even make sure that THEIR SIDE (which you are on) loses for the sake of their friends on the opposite side.

I was for random parties until I read this. Although I have seen it happen already, chances are (in my opnion) it'll happen more with random parties T_T

Can we make a system where you can't change sides for a week(estimate)? Kind of like KVM but not just until you finish the fight.
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#8 Ralis

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:37 PM

It's nothing that doesn't really happen now. If a side is full and someone has to go to the other side they'll usually just sit there. Only fighting when you're on a team with friends seems like a really stupid, egotistical thing to do (and I know that describes most people on iRO, really...) but it doesn't seem like it's something that'd be increased by making the sides random.
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#9 iiNote

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 07:13 PM

I like this idea very much... I think It would revive BG and KVM also...
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#10 Mwrip

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 08:00 PM

The pros *MASSIVELY* outweigh the cons on this.

Pros:
-The battle is back. People will actually fight again. Alts will be used only if we're 1-2 players short to start the match, and that's the only time they ever should be used.
-Team stacking is gone. Period. Winning in BGs becomes about outplaying the other team, not simply getting on the winning team.
-It's more fun at all levels of play. Casual pvpers can jump in a fun fight and worry about nothing else. Moderate pvpers can enjoy a good challenge at all times, some great fun battles, and the ability to legitimately earn some good gear. Hardcore pvpers get to fight the other hardcore players outside of WoE, finally letting them do what they love more than 4 hours/week.
-It changes battlegrounds from RO Dead Feature #7865 to a serious selling point of the game. RO's battlegrounds, when they actually have fair teams, are far more strategic that WoW's. This could help us to get more newbies into the game, and that in turn can improve things across the board.
-It adds a MAJOR thing to do in the game besides grind, and a constant source of fun. If there's one complaint just about everyone has about Renewal, it's the game is nothing but grind and WoE. Well... this is a HUGE step towards fixing that.

Cons:
-If you try to join a battle with a friend, you've only got a 50:50 shot of landing on the same team. This can be annoying, BUT 1) playing against friends can be fun too and 2) A 50% chance to play with friends in a BG is better than the current 0.01% chance that the battle actually starts and isn't crashed by farmers.
-Guilds that like to form a big, coordinated, dominating team will lose the ability to do so.

While there's no doubt that some of the top tier WoE players aren't going to like the idea of BGs being about fair challenges instead of an easy way to farm WoE gear, sorry, but I don't feel that matters, at all. They're called BATTLEgrounds for a reason.

Random teams is quite simply one of the best changes you could possibly make to RO, and something that many of us have been waiting for for several months. Please do it.
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#11 Scott

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 08:20 PM

+1 to team randomisation. There should be a special check on Priest class entrants though, to split them evenly.
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#12 Ralis

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 09:25 PM

Very well summed up as usual, Mwrip. =D
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#13 fearfulways

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 09:47 PM

i support KVM randomizing and removing the CD!. i dont have any sort of kvm gear and i pvp alot
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#14 GeeGee

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 10:28 PM

Pros:
The Battlegrounds would be more of a battleground than a place to earn items and would serve as an any-time WoE Environment without all the silly outnumbered nonsense and less item burning.
Dominate over your friends Because you're forced to. No hard feelings anymore.

Guilds can be seperated If coded right, that would be nice.. people are too alliance based in RO anyway, better that they have a reason to kill each other once in while. Sports are no fun if you aren't forcibly practicing against friends a lot, why not the same with an MMO. I'm sure you can learn a lot by fighting your "oh so tough" guild leader or friend on occasion so that you can learn new strategies to up your defenses or offenses in a WoE environment.. or even figure out what's wrong with your friend's play style to make them a better party member. Unlike ordinary pvp, you get rewards AND WoE rules here, and due to randomization, could even learn to be a better overall player.

MORE PROS:
Longer Battleground battle durations people wasting time because they lack appropriate people on their sides would occur more if they're not on a "winning" side or their friend's side.

Lack of a well-rounded team Let's say it's not a WoE day and it just so happens that enough alts are available to play tierra. Oh, but darn, one team has 2 Arch Bishop and 2 Warlockes while one has 2 Guillotine Crosses and a Royal Guard that feel like actually playing during the tierra battle. The Warlockes and Bishops will be ranting and raving that they can't be on the side with the food storage breakers every time since nobody else is actually participating. Also, if people stop trying to put alts up because they would ruin the power balance if on their team, the battlegrounds could keep going through long waiting periods before starting unless immediately after WoE or some other major occurrence. Would you happily sign an alt in when there's a chance that it's stuck with you? ..probably. But what if a non-alt has a chance to show up, there's only 1 more person needed anyway. Would you like to wait for a few more minutes? Maybe.. And the more time you wait on these perplexing decisions, the less points you'll get.

Those with bad luck are likely to avoid the battlegrounds completely It needs a lot more people there whenever possible, especially if people have enough Medals of Honor or something but you need one for a character.
Some people are a little too attached to guild-mates, friends, and lovers so there may be people that would otherwise demolish everyone on the other team becoming less effective without certain people with them or just wouldn't try because they know someone else needs the points more. They may even make sure that THEIR SIDE (which you are on) loses for the sake of their friends on the opposite side. A party may not always be large enough to accommodate the number of people in a guild interested in playing battlegrounds if it's coded to keep parties together. If it is coded that way and a party is too big for the slots available, they wouldn't stay together anyway, let alone if there are more people in a guild that slots on a side. So, it would probably be ill-received when there's few people wanting to play in the battlegrounds, but well received when there are many. Not everyone parties or guilds up with all of their friends at all times, so it's bound to have issues to someone in these regards no matter the coding.I like both options.. Though.. I'm biased toward randomization since it does not affect me. If Heim says people will be angry, though, maybe they will be..


Fixed. These are all Pros. No cons exist within this thread.

Edited by GeeGee, 09 December 2010 - 10:34 PM.

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#15 GuardianTK

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 11:42 PM

Randomizing the teams would be epic.
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#16 SamuelAdams

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 11:52 PM

How about, if randomized, teams are considered to all be in the same party for skill reasons even if they aren't...?
That way parties won't even have to be done and redone after every match etc...
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#17 kymmy

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 12:08 AM

+1 on random its the fair thing to do

i duno why its not been done already,
the only downsides i see is ppl afking if they dont get the side they want or the classes they need for a easy win but its still the more fair option & noone is using battlegrounds now? so whats to lose...
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#18 ensignfluke

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 12:26 AM

Probably too late to matter anymore, but doesn't hurt to try and fix broken stuff. Should have been random from the beginning though.
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#19 Hrothmund

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 01:49 AM

So far the only things i see mentioned as "Cons" in this thread are things that affect farmers efficiency. People who go to BG/KVM for fun see those as Pro's, not Cons.

I fully support random battles, go play battlegrounds on requiem its hella fun (fully randomised sides).

Too many people treat RO as a job rather than a game and forget to get any enjoyment at all other than maximising efficiency.
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#20 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 02:39 AM

Well, it would be even more awesome if it tried to create good teams first... I know, it would be really complex coding and not perfect, but it would be a lot better and closer to both sides having workable teams...
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#21 Limitless

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 03:19 AM

YES make it random.
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#22 Fibrizzo

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 03:31 AM

The problem with random teams should be when some classes wanna play. Imagine a team with 5 priests classes against a team with all killers...

This system is awesome for people who can kill but could sucks when appear supporters in BG.
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#23 Limitless

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 03:33 AM

Make it balance the classes and levels as closely as a script can.
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#24 Hrothmund

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 05:08 AM

What are the odds that if you take 5 killers and 5 priests, that all priests would randomly end up all on one team? ok so one out of every couple hundred games would be unfairly balanced. Thats much better than one out of every one game being unbalanced with farmers.
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#25 Scott

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 05:20 AM

Well, it would be even more awesome if it tried to create good teams first... I know, it would be really complex coding and not perfect, but it would be a lot better and closer to both sides having workable teams...


It would actually be fairly simple coding to allocate teams based on what's available to enter and what's already on a team. Just a lot of if then else statements.
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