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Battlegrounds: Pros and Cons of Randomizing Sides?


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#51 SamuelAdams

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 08:17 PM

Yes people will continue to put alts in no matter what we do, and with the randomization it will make people QQ more then it does now. At least now people know what side is going to be alts for sure and they have a chance to be on a completely unalt side.

One flaw. Some people have slower internets than others. ^^'
I could get in almost every time, other people couldn't.
And people did used to do bg. It's been dead recently from what I've seen, although with all the forum posts about it, I don't know if it's going again.
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#52 GuardianTK

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:00 PM

Okay, so pre-renewal it was a HP+4 nontrans sins without cranials or pots.

Where HP is a very strong class, it can't carry a match. No matter how good you are.

Too bad it wouldn't wind up that way at all times if it were randomized. And since when did main account Sins expect to win a match in BG? That's a horrible example. And if they said they thought they could win, they were probably trolling you. They're probably alts if you saw those anyways. xD Just consider it bad luck if you get that kind of setup 10 times in a row, which I doubt would happen often if we had a randomization system.
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#53 November

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:11 PM

Too bad it wouldn't wind up that way at all times if it were randomized. And since when did main account Sins expect to win a match in BG? That's a horrible example. And if they said they thought they could win, they were probably trolling you. They're probably alts if you saw those anyways. xD Just consider it bad luck if you get that kind of setup 10 times in a row, which I doubt would happen often if we had a randomization system.

idk about koko but I was doing BG today for a few rounds and an assassin and sinX both apparently thought they could kill me O.o. I have seen lots of first classes think they can kill higher lvl chars even prerenewal....

Edit:

Samuel BG has been broken since renewal hit so it has been "dead" for about 5-6 weeks now by that standard. Prerenewal I was doing BG quite a bit since I already had my main chars 99/70 I decided to get them gear and the last few weeks before renewal came BG was up and running.

Edited by November, 10 December 2010 - 10:13 PM.

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#54 Kokotewa

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:30 PM

Too bad it wouldn't wind up that way at all times if it were randomized. And since when did main account Sins expect to win a match in BG? That's a horrible example. And if they said they thought they could win, they were probably trolling you. They're probably alts if you saw those anyways. xD Just consider it bad luck if you get that kind of setup 10 times in a row, which I doubt would happen often if we had a randomization system.

Yes it does. In fact, it ends that way all the time.
I never expect people that I don't know in BG to do anything even remotely useful, usually because they don't.

Do I expect a non trans sin to do something? No
Do I expect a Hindsight Sage to do something? No
Do I expect a high priest using kawaii headgear to do something? No
Do I expect a sniper using a propeller hat to do something? No
Do I expect a LK in THQ before the match starts to do something? No
Do I expect a sinx who uses enchant poison before the match starts to do something? No

Most of the time, the players that 'randomly' end up on your team simply afk for the badges. Alts or not. They are not going to contribute to winning the game, at all. I don't like things to be more random than they already are.

On an organized team, HP is a strong and powerful choice. On a random team, HP is very very bad. Killing classes can 'carry' a bad BG team to victory. A support class can't. Do I want to 'risk' winning based on if I get paired with a killing class that knows 'wtf they are doing'? Hmm, no. I'll play my champ, pop a few berries, and win EVERY TIME. Knowing full well that there isn't an organized team on the opposite side who can stop me due to a stupid randomizing party system.

My point is "if you had to win to get stuff, people wouldn't join for a free ride" which seems to be the problem these days. "Hey that side over there is winning! Screw you guys, I'm going over there to win because putting up a fight is too difficult." IMO let a side get the same players in /every time/ if they want.
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#55 Mwrip

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:31 PM

The "way too many support types on one team" will *occasionally* be an issue, but it's a rare one, vs. 100% of successful BG runs getting destroyed by farmers. It's a small price to pay to fix the system.

As for you saying that HPs are bad on random teams... before the farmers killed the BGs, I used to see people HP all the time, either standing on the spawn point throwing buffs on everyone, or following us into battle with healing. Both were quite useful.

Believe it or not, it's possible to work as a team without everyone being in the same guild.

Edited by Mwrip, 10 December 2010 - 10:34 PM.

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#56 Kokotewa

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:54 PM

The "way too many support types on one team" will *occasionally* be an issue, but it's a rare one, vs. 100% of successful BG runs getting destroyed by farmers. It's a small price to pay to fix the system.

As for you saying that HPs are bad on random teams... before the farmers killed the BGs, I used to see people HP all the time, either standing on the spawn point throwing buffs on everyone, or following us into battle with healing. Both were quite useful.

Believe it or not, it's possible to work as a team without everyone being in the same guild.

I have yet to see farming be an issue when I want to BG. It goes something like "my team joins the alt side, then we win" Then farming is over. BGs just started, but for keeps.

HPs are bad on random teams, as are any other support class. Healing is bad in any PVP scenario. Your "HPs are good because they did what my potions should have been doing" argument makes me severely wonder about the validity of any of your arguments.

Show me a random team that beats a guild team, then we'll talk.
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#57 Hrothmund

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:11 PM

This is a terrible idea. What is going to happen is everyone will be excited for the change and do BG actively for a few weeks, then people will dwindle off after getting so few badges for the amount of time and zeny they put into the match. After those people dwindle there will not be enough people to start a full match so people will have to start adding their alts, then when the match starts it becomes random and the side with the most alts will get pissed off and some will end up leaving. In the end it will be like it has always been, getting as many alts in as possible to start a single match and one side QQ because they have more alts than the other side.

This new update just changes who mainly does BG, the farmers will mostly stay away from BG while the fighters fight. We are only changing from non-fighters -> fighters. There are more non-fighters than there are fighters.


I find it amusing and dissapointing at the same time that you dont actually realise YOUR the problem, and the solutions being presented are designed to fix that problem.

The fact you dont like the idea actually supports it.
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#58 November

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:33 PM

I find it amusing and dissapointing at the same time that you dont actually realise YOUR the problem, and the solutions being presented are designed to fix that problem.

The fact you dont like the idea actually supports it.

*shrug* you can jump to any conclusion you like, I do not mind spending millions of zeny to pot in BG to survive. I for one do not like to spend millions of zeny on BG to get a chance of getting 12 badges every 30 minutes. Other people that do not have those kinds of resources will most likely get frustrated at such a minimal reward for the time/money they put in that they will eventually just leave.

If you also think I do not like battle you can ask Gee-Gee, he always sparks a fight and I do not mind going against him. Hell I even go on the oposite side just to :rolleyes: with him (can't kill him on my char).

Edited by November, 10 December 2010 - 11:38 PM.

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#59 Mwrip

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:53 PM

I have yet to see farming be an issue when I want to BG. It goes something like "my team joins the alt side, then we win" Then farming is over. BGs just started, but for keeps.

HPs are bad on random teams, as are any other support class. Healing is bad in any PVP scenario. Your "HPs are good because they did what my potions should have been doing" argument makes me severely wonder about the validity of any of your arguments.

Show me a random team that beats a guild team, then we'll talk.


What you're showing is the mentality of a player that believes BGs should only run when WoE guilds enter, and everyone else shouldn't touch them. That's not what they're supposed to be.

Full guild teams in BGs were *extremely* rare. In the time it took me to legitimately earn around 400 badges, I did not see a full guild team even once. I occasionally saw 4-5 people in the same guild all join a team, and while my rate of winning vs. that kind of setup was lower than normal, I DID win. All you need is 3-4 people to use battlechat, and you can actually get a pretty well-coordinated pickup group, as long as people know what they're doing.

BGs are NOT just WoE-supplied guilds getting gear to WoE with. Many of us enjoy BGs as BGs, and don't just see them as the WoE prepping station.

Edited by Mwrip, 11 December 2010 - 12:01 AM.

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#60 Dukeares

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:38 AM

I have yet to see farming be an issue when I want to BG. It goes something like "my team joins the alt side, then we win" Then farming is over. BGs just started, but for keeps.


Thanks for agreeing that farming is not an issues..
Every ones here Who had or want to have BG Set have to thanks the People that Farm BG Badges LIke US!!!

Do most of u Realise that all of the BG Match ( b4 renewal) started by People who was Farming for badges???
we used to had 3 or 4 friend or guildy to bring their's ALT to fill the Other Side? Then we have Post Chat Room and Spamming "Flavius/Tiera 13 vs 13 in ON!!! in Prontera to get people to join in BG match???

i have never seen a BG match started with out some 1 organizing it in the First Place.


Do u guy know? with out somebody organizing the match...the Scenario will ended with NO BODY Going to Join a Bloody Macth becouse he or she have to wait a hour or soo and getting other people to wait with him or her till there enough people to start the bloody Flaviur or Tiera' match???

Creating Balance or ramdomize the Match is Good and i agree on that. But the main Problem that need to be tackle is
getting enough people to join a BG match or KVM

i think it would be better if they have better way to get enough people to join. Maybe we could have Hourly system where battle ground will be open for 1 hour and then close for the next hour then reopen again the next hour or so? like Woe?? at lest that way people will know there will be people waiting to go to BG on that Hour or time..??

Oh BTw i know some of u guy in this thread here was the ones that join the alt side in Flavius and calling us Noob for "farming" and wreaking the mathc by dragging the Guadian in Flavius over and over..

Does "YOU" that call us noob know???? Why in the First place we put our ALt on the other side???? it becouse that was not ENough people to for a real Bloody war in Flavius in the first place????

Like Kokotewa said "my team joins the alt side, then we win" Then farming is over. BGs just started,( like Kokotewa said that is when the "real BG start.">>>>>it mean there is enough people to do a real match!!!

SO STOP F* ruining a Farming in BG if u see ones........UNDERSTAND!!! or thet wont be macth left

Edited by Dukeares, 11 December 2010 - 12:40 AM.

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#61 Easly

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:48 AM

bg sucks
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#62 November

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 12:59 AM

i think it would be better if they have better way to get enough people to join. Maybe we could have Hourly system where battle ground will be open for 1 hour and then close for the next hour then reopen again the next hour or so? like Woe?? at lest that way people will know there will be people waiting to go to BG on that Hour or time..??

I kinda like this idea, however the amount of time open would have to be longer due to the fact that if people are fighting the odds of the match going on for 30 minutes is really high. At that rate you would only get at most 24 medals an hour assuming you won both matches.

Another side note: Every now and again my guildies and I decide to run BG when no one else is so we can farm badges and get ourselves our woe gear, but when others do come to fight we oblige and fight as well. If they make them randomized then my guildies and I will have to take even more time to get our equips. People will say that they are trying to stop what we are doing but at the same time we fight when people do come to BG, but what are we supposed to do with no one to fight? separate, fight each other, use supplies? or get our badges so we can get our gear and fight when other people finally show up.
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#63 Dukeares

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 01:00 AM

bg sucks


It not suck at .. it realy suck when they not enough people. It is fun and exciting where there a real match in BG Every 1 want to win and beat the other side!!!
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#64 Ralis

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 02:00 AM

Most of the time I refused to farm and would purposely join the alt side to provide at least the starts of a fight, yes, but it's not like I do it for the hell of it. Farming a system that wasn't meant to be farmed is, in my opinion, pretty damn close to exploitation. Do you realize that we are the only RO that has issues like this? Other servers are amazed at the things iRO players do to make life easier for themselves.

I don't owe my items to those that started farming. Yes, they helped get BGs going, but 95% of the times that I turned it into a fight, it then became a fight and we kept it going as such. Many people WANT to fight and WANT to play the game. I'm one of them, and there are a lot more. I'd the total number of badges for my items, 25% were gained from farming. I wish it had been 0%, because the fights were a lot more fun, and that's what I come on RO to do... Have fun.

I think you completely turned around what Koko meant, by the way...
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#65 Dukeares

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 02:37 AM

Farming wont be a problem anymore in the future if peoples have to camped to get into the Battle Ground it self..

XD
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#66 Tofu

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 03:07 AM

BG randomization should be implemented soon in my opinion. With the new upgrading system, there is a LOT more incentive to do KVM to get the weapons. And more sales for Gravity is always a good thing ;D
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#67 GuardianTK

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 07:24 AM

Yes it does. In fact, it ends that way all the time.
I never expect people that I don't know in BG to do anything even remotely useful, usually because they don't.

Do I expect a non trans sin to do something? No
Do I expect a Hindsight Sage to do something? No
Do I expect a high priest using kawaii headgear to do something? No
Do I expect a sniper using a propeller hat to do something? No
Do I expect a LK in THQ before the match starts to do something? No
Do I expect a sinx who uses enchant poison before the match starts to do something? No

Most of the time, the players that 'randomly' end up on your team simply afk for the badges. Alts or not. They are not going to contribute to winning the game, at all. I don't like things to be more random than they already are.

On an organized team, HP is a strong and powerful choice. On a random team, HP is very very bad. Killing classes can 'carry' a bad BG team to victory. A support class can't. Do I want to 'risk' winning based on if I get paired with a killing class that knows 'wtf they are doing'? Hmm, no. I'll play my champ, pop a few berries, and win EVERY TIME. Knowing full well that there isn't an organized team on the opposite side who can stop me due to a stupid randomizing party system.

My point is "if you had to win to get stuff, people wouldn't join for a free ride" which seems to be the problem these days. "Hey that side over there is winning! Screw you guys, I'm going over there to win because putting up a fight is too difficult." IMO let a side get the same players in /every time/ if they want.

Bad players will always be bad. It's not always about the more organized team. If a bad HP were on your side, your party won't change a thing about the HP. And if a HP can't do their job on a random team other than yours, then you know they're bad. In many cases, people are inexperienced fighters though. I've seen people improve through some coaching. Though I see your points. I've mentioned before on how I see where you're coming from.


@November: They probably didn't know any better or just simply wanted to screw around. Don't take those newbies/noobs seriously. Though SinX might have been an exception in prerenewal.
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#68 Kokotewa

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 09:08 AM

Bad players will always be bad. It's not always about the more organized team. If a bad HP were on your side, your party won't change a thing about the HP. And if a HP can't do their job on a random team other than yours, then you know they're bad. In many cases, people are inexperienced fighters though. I've seen people improve through some coaching. Though I see your points. I've mentioned before on how I see where you're coming from.

Okay here is a scenario.

Arch Bishop + Rune Knight + Maestro
Together: Scary as all hell.
RK + either of the other ones: "meh" decent, not "scary"
Combination without RK: ":rolleyes:"

This is the problem with randomized teams. Yes we have already covered the "95~99% of the players suck and they won't help at all"

Bad player+support: ":unsure:"
Bad player+killer: "meh"
This is the problem.

Edited by Kokotewa, 11 December 2010 - 09:24 AM.

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#69 GuardianTK

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 09:29 AM

Okay here is a scenario.

Arch Bishop + Rune Knight + Maestro
Together: Scary as all hell.
RK + either of the other ones: "meh" decent, not "scary"
Combination without RK: ":rolleyes:"

This is the problem with randomized teams. Yes we have already covered the "95~99% of the players suck and they won't help at all" They aren't HPs, they are bad player.
Bad player+support: ":unsure:"
Bad player+killer: "meh"
This is the problem.

And if said bad players camp the "winning" side until they manage to get in and screw it up for you if there happens to be a scenario where the other side finally got organized enough to win? I've seen countless set ups where the occasional "bad player" manages to get onto the winning team. This alone sometimes is enough to throw off a match to where the other side wins due to it. You can't get rid of bad players in both systems. So I don't see why you don't want to try it out. It is a matter of your personal opinion in not liking random battles. Personally, I think(As well as many others) it's fun and unpredictable. Then again, I haven't tried it out yet and neither have you. If I don't like it, I'll go with what you say. It's best to experiment with different methods to see what happens.
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#70 MrBudd

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 09:41 AM

Mr. Budd says two thumbs up for team randomization.
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#71 Kokotewa

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 09:50 AM

And if said bad players camp the "winning" side until they manage to get in and screw it up for you if there happens to be a scenario where the other side finally got organized enough to win? I've seen countless set ups where the occasional "bad player" manages to get onto the winning team. This alone sometimes is enough to throw off a match to where the other side wins due to it. You can't get rid of bad players in both systems. So I don't see why you don't want to try it out. It is a matter of your personal opinion in not liking random battles. Personally, I think(As well as many others) it's fun and unpredictable. Then again, I haven't tried it out yet and neither have you. If I don't like it, I'll go with what you say. It's best to experiment with different methods to see what happens.

How about my party "ques" in battleground together, then gets paired up vs other teams that also "qued"
People who que by themselves get thrown in together to fill spots on either team.

This would also fix the "lets stack that side with alts to win" problem.
And the farming problem.

Solved.
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#72 GuardianTK

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 10:10 AM

How about my party "ques" in battleground together, then gets paired up vs other teams that also "qued"
People who que by themselves get thrown in together to fill spots on either team.

This would also fix the "lets stack that side with alts to win" problem.
And the farming problem.

Solved.

Is there even a way to script that? Sounds nice.
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#73 Saisotsu

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:28 AM

How about, if randomized, teams are considered to all be in the same party for skill reasons even if they aren't...?
That way parties won't even have to be done and redone after every match etc...


Would be amazing if this was implementable. Being able to take full advantage of the random people you're grouped with without having to waste time sitting around and making a party with them would make Battle Grounds the next most popular thing in the game once people are no longer leveling. Is it possible though?
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#74 daboss

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 11:34 AM

i would love randomized teams, it would be so much better
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#75 Wanderer

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Posted 11 December 2010 - 01:06 PM

It shouldn't be hard to code some checks to prevent 'red side has 0 mage classes and blue side has 3'
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