352 replies to this topic

[GKole]

When Camp announced to open a new new server Odin because Classic Loki is dead and Renewal Chaos population is massive, I wholeheartedly thought it was a good idea because it would allow new players to get fresh breath. It's not about me. It's all about the company and the wellness of the company always comes first. Even though it meant to separate the players from Loki and Chaos, I didn't mind.

Now when Odin is too crowded, it is a right decision to open a 2nd server Frigg to accommodate players who can't play smoothly in Odin. The argument against opening up a new server Frigg can be used very well against Odin server. In this case, we might as well close Odin now because it's taking away players from Loki and Chaos, making it less competitive.

Anyway we all know they will open Frigg (which is a good move) and if they disable WoE and MvP cards, now I would agree with people that opening up Frigg is a bad move because only bots would play on Frigg. Why would anyone play on Frigg if there was no incentives lol

 

It is only crowded because of an insane out of control bot epidemic. You must consider the context. Opening a new server when you've got two very very old servers is different than opening a new server when you've just opened a new server. And the server is only crowded because of an insane out of control bot epidemic.

[Myzery]

All I see in this thread is people ignoring the very real issues with playability the servers are having and saying they'd rather maintain the status quo than attempt solutions that may mitigate them.  Opening a second server has no real drawbacks here, you guys can't seem to make up your minds whether you "don't want to split the population" or whether "there's no incentive to play on a second server so nobody will" when the truth lies somewhere in the middle, likely very few people who are already playing would switch, but there are still many players incoming, and giving them a working server to play on in the short term and merging the servers in the future when long term solutions are found seems both logical and reasonable.

 

There isn't a world where they can offer no solutions to the current server problems at peak times.  They have already added hardware, this server runs better for it's pop than any aegis server I've seen so far, maybe you guys forget how awful things were back in open beta when loki had 12000 players, but it was pretty much unplayable at peak times, and it turns out that the server software hasn't changed much since then because it never needed to, so any theoretical software changes to solve the problems would not be solutions that come quickly enough.  As for the automation issues, they have already clearly stated that there's stuff in development for it, likely it is based on the solutions deployed by other RO servers that people keep harping on, what more do you want them to say about it?  It isn't ready, it won't be ready soon enough to solve the immediate problems of people not being able to play, so they need to do something else, and a second, temporary server is the only realistic remaining thing to do.

 

It does have drawbacks though
Campitor is already spread thin and when the constant downtime, etc. happens on the new server, what's going to happen then?
If they hire new staff, they could easily hire outsourced or minimum wage workers to active ban bots since they say this is the main problem.

This server does nothing in the end but cause more problems than good.

[Panteperu]

So i guess that everyone saying that frigg server is not a solution (temporary at least) wont complain for the current unplayable lag then? 

Which most likely will continue to happen for the next week.

[SettlerofCatan]

Does no cm or gm feel like answering my question?

Wouldnt merging just fill odin with frigg bots, thus doubling the bot population every time you merge?

Seriously. Its not a hard question.

[Myzery]

The majority of the bots will stay on Odin because it's more profitable.

 

[HKHKHK]

 

 

What are your concerns regarding these plans?

I think you just opened a new playground for bots.

 

Stupid plan.

[Exuro]

I really hope these plans aren't final. It's nice to see a largely populated server after so long, and you just have to split it up again. Please don't. There may be other solutions that you can find in order to address existing issues, instead of just using a band-aid solution that is Frigg.

 

Even if it were to be a temporary server for now that will be merged into Odin, having it exist afterwards may still split the population of RE:START significantly. Maybe you can go ahead with this idea but just shut Frigg down for good once it gets merged back to Odin.

 

Edited by Exuro, 21 July 2017 - 08:23 AM.

[Esux]

The majority of the bots will stay on Odin because it's more profitable.

 

 

Nothing is stopping them botting both servers.

 

Also you can hoard thousands in KP items if you make bank early. Store em all and wait for the merge.

[jorgesward]

You don't think it better to increase the server host to withstand 8~10k players than to create another server to merge in the future? The time you would spare by adding bug fixes on both servers, the frustration of the players too ... If the Philippines manages for a 40k host, I believe you can get at least a 10k host.

[Highdrated]

I believe they came up with this solution because they cannot solve it.

They don't care they already got their money, why bother upgrading what they have if they know

for sure people are going to quit anyway. They just wanted that quick money grab from peoples nostalgia.

They want people to quit now after spending money and will prove that they didn't need an upgrade.

[ZinniaHani]

Trolling aside, I think there is a few words to be said about this whole thing. Before raging towards WP team the community may have to understand a few key points:

 

Concerning bots:

Botting is a major issue that a lot of MMORPGs have to face. Ragnarok especially, is a fairly cheap game. Spending additional weeks of development to secure the client, is often out of the picture.

Now, correct me if I'm mistaken, but WP is not even authorized to touch nor the client nor the sources of the server without asking their korean counterpart.

And I highly doubt Gravity is willing to spend that time in production.

 

Even though they would, there is only two solutions for them to really avoid bots and cheats.

1) Spend a few hundred thousands $ for a license of one of the famous and maintained anticheats, like Denuvo.

2) Develop a behavioral algorithm that would detect bots server side, and either automate the bans, or hand over a watch-list to GMs.

 

Both of these options include a lot of money, and a bunch of development time. Any other option would be just temporary.

 

Concerning lags:

 

There's two options.

Either it's actual lags, and the hosting service is too cheap to handle 5000 concurrent connections on a same server, which would seem... improbable. Knowing the packets exchange on RO is super low.

 

Or it's calculation problems.

You're playing a game that sits on a 20 yo engine with a client that still uses D3D.

The hardware isn't even the question if the engine is single threaded. You could have the best hardware in the world and overclock your proc, it'll still be overloaded on a game where any character can do 20 actions / second.

 

 

Concerning the split:

 

Knowing the above, it's a decent idea to split the population in two servers.

The server is currently a lot hyped and, as any game, the population will dramatically decrease in the next few weeks.

 

When the population will decrease, they will merge both of the servers again and give another bump of activity to the Restart adventure, which is a good idea on the paper.

 

However, it is just not going to work if it's done half-assed, without security measures to make sure people are not playing/botting on two servers.

Instead of having people mad once because of the split, you'll end up having people mad twice because of the split and the merge.

 

There are ways to think this through, however it is needless to say these are risk assessments that should have been mentioned way earlier before production.

Edited by ZinniaHani, 21 July 2017 - 10:36 AM.

[Amis]

Tldr: I think Frigg is a bad idea. It's worse than doing nothing, and it costs you more.

You guys keep surprising me with how you can kill the goose that lays golden eggs over and over again. If you make an alternate server that will get rolled into Odin, there will be more bots. There will be twice as many timed spawns and so you will accelerate the power curve of Odin when those items get rolled in. If you have to do it, the best compromise is a short lived server that gets rolled in once, and then is ended. And make it as short lived as possible - as soon as population drops enough (think 2 weeks to 2 months at longest), or you get the bots better under control, merge and terminate.

[Shanedude]

Most of you are over thinking, the solution is multiple simple tactics layered, costs no $ to implement other then employee's time.

1. Every maint change the training grounds so bots are forced to update regularly.

2. Shut down portals to catch stuck bots. (you will get 10+ bots PER portal, plus any connected to the banned account)

3. Easy to use player based flag system.

4. GM go under cover to spend $15 to catch RMT'ers in the act. Banning as many as yo can trace back in history. (you will catch RMT buyers aswell


If you make two servers the bots will double up overnight by changing a few lines of text. Not good.






 

[Tofu]

4. GM go under cover to spend $15 to catch RMT'ers in the act. Banning as many as yo can trace back in history. (you will catch RMT buyers aswell

If you're suggesting the GMs should spend money "baiting" RMT sellers by actually purchasing zeny from them, that's a hilariously bad idea. You could start a business just scamming the GMs for money, and never need to give them anything. No need to even bot at that point.

[manoelsilva6666]

I think we should not   Friggs out   because of the new server....

[Himeyasha]

Technically if they ban that account and all the related accounts the "GMs" are "getting zeny" no?

 

They could also technically "chargeback" on the zeny seller as a customer. 

[Shanedude]

Bait and hook works. You ban every account associated with the zeny seller. 

Zeny made from bots will be destroyed, not resold in some sort of oceans 11 scam by gm's. 

They would also have hard proof of a third party profiting from their game. Legal actions might become possible? Im not sure how much profit RMT'ers take away from WP to make the while worth...

 

[Himeyasha]

Legal would not be worth it.

 

Unless the "damages" are north of 100K+ the lawyer fees alone will cost 20-30K for the intial and up to 100K itself given that you'd be trying to sue Chinese across international waters with dual laws. 

 

In all likelyhood the "zenyseller" would just close shop and reopen shop under a different name or address.

 

You can however, make things cheaper but once again that only works if you actually hardcore block the easy zeny production. 

Edited by Himeyasha, 21 July 2017 - 09:33 AM.

[Picotin]

For bots problem, is it possible to add an option, when you right-click on a character, named "Report as a bot" ?

In a corner of the reported player's game, it could open a window in which you should write some words, in less than 5 minutes, to prove that you're human.

If words are written correctly in under 5 minutes, the player can't be reported again for an hour.

If not, the player is just disconnected. If this player is reported 3 times in a row and failed to write the good words the 3 times, he could be temporarily be banned.

 

A player temporarily banned could have to wait 24 hours to play again.

And if he's banned 3 times, the third ban could be definitive.

 

I don't think it's something difficult to program. It can probably be done in a month if you take your time.

So... there's probably things to modify but it's just an idea.

 

Sorry for my approximate english ^^'

Edited by Picotin, 21 July 2017 - 09:59 AM.

[oBorba]

I already said in my last post, want to create a new server with very little bot?

 

1• Only 1 "Frigg" account per "WarpPortal" account;

 

2• Improved exp at the server start;

 

# I think that alone would already make the server more interesting, and without doubt, too few BOT'S.

 

  

[GoodVibesz]

For bots problem, is it possible to add an option, when you right-click on a character, named "Report as a bot" ?

In a corner of the reported player's game, it could open a window in which you should write some words, in less than 5 minutes, to prove that you're human.

If words are written correctly in under 5 minutes, the player can't be reported again for an hour.

If not, the player is just disconnected. If this player is reported 3 times in a row and failed to write the good words the 3 times, he could be temporarily be banned.

 

A player temporarily banned could have to wait 24 hours to play again.

And if he's banned 3 times, the third ban could be definitive.

 

I don't think it's something difficult to program. It can probably be done in a month if you take your time.

So... there's probably things to modify but it's just an idea.

 

Sorry for my approximate english ^^'

that feeling when I report legit afk players and have them banned 

 

good idea 

[Picotin]

that feeling when I report legit afk players and have them banned 

 

good idea 

 

That's why they aren't banned directly...

Have you really read what I wrote ?
 

But that's why I said there's probably things to change.

So devs could probably add an afk status for players inactive since a handful of minutes.

And afk players couldn't be reported.

There's a solution for all...

Edited by Picotin, 21 July 2017 - 10:21 AM.

[ChakriGuard]

One player per one active character which means active players have only 5 seconds to respond to a PM from GM. Fail to respond in 5 seconds = auto ban lol 

[TattooedChef]

I love how none of the staff is disputing that this is a horrible idea.......makes you wonder about WP huh?

 

[BestOneHere]

These are all very good anti-bot ideas.