44 replies to this topic

[jepherdy]

Hello Dragon Saga and Players,

 

This topic is just to share my idea, so I hope no one will react arrogantly. ^^

I just thought it would be better if the stats like Aim Rate, Evade Rate and Block Rate will be put back on the game because the game was so much better with these stats. So that, players will not focus only with a few stats like attack speed, critical damage or ATK/MATK and so on, and instead they should also focus on putting AIM rate for evade and block. 

 

The only classes that are so powerful in the game are just Summies, invokers and archers for a high DPS, if there will be at least evade, aim and block rate, again they will focus on other stats as well. Please make other classes enjoyable as well like ninja, savage, dragoon and overlord in PVP/BSQ/EMPORIA. It looks like mages and drakans are overpowering all other classes.

 

And it also seems that the game is all about element now, +20 weapons with high ATK/MATK is so useless when we talk about element dmg. I hope the game can consider balancing element in pvp big time. Instead make element more OP in PVE.

 

Again, I hope no one reacts rude here. haha

 

 

 

[AngMZ]

1) archers has high agi and can easily stack dps with evade. Someone is going to end up complaining about archers being overpowering later. Lets not forget about twins

2) I think blocks are working in game? I've seen ninjas and dragoons blocking quite consistently.

3) Elements used to be way more overpowered. The current ele system has nerfed it a great deal and I personally feel that the "rock paper scissors" basis for our current element system is a pretty good idea

[jepherdy]

Btw, also thieves can stack high evade due to high agi. But thats the reason why other classes should focus on aim rate to counter evade. And block doesn't work like before, there is only little chance you will block an attack, but when you are able to blocl an attack it only blocks a few percentage of the attack dealt. So pretty much block is not useful. Its like aim evade and block are just designs in the description

[Precrush]

https://forums.warpp...k-for-ninja-40/

 

Here's a few people's opinions on this from the most recent topic like this. I think your suggestion of just reverting it to work as it did before (from what I understand) is even worse than the one I linked because it's going to make mages even stronger. The thing with this game is that you can build any stat on any class because the things that once made the difference between the classes have been outdated for a long time now.

 

[jepherdy]

Maybe they can find a way to make evade and block balanced. cap it in someway players can not stack it to OP. But i really think they should put it back because dragon saga/dragonica included those stats not for nothing. They can put it back where it can't be over powering all other classes, because right now the only classes that rule the game are drakans and mages which is very unfair for all other classes. We know for a fact that the classes are not balanced that's why there are these kinds of suggestions from a lot of players, a lot of players with other classes wants to enjoy the game too most especially in BSQ/EMPORIA?PVP

 

[5143121023173906760]

I don't know if you thought about the consequences of such changes if you bring back Evade rate and AIM Rate...

Yes the strongest classes will loose some ATK speed, C.Damage and HLT. But what about the AGI / Evade rate based classes ? They're gonna loose some HLT aswell and they'll probably still die as fast, if not faster unless the way Evade rate is introduced is completely broken.

[Agitodesu]

Evade is the easiest stat to stack and I mean what if those invokers slap on some evade since all they use is hlt and 3 other less needed stats on armor gear. That means those dps that lack damage need to sacrifice more stuff for aim in order to hit them. For what? dodging x% of the 100 balls they shoot per second? Only thing that seems fair is block to be honest, just blocking a % of damage for only certain classes that fit appropriate, and maybe change evade buffs into a block buff. If block can reduce total damage+element damage by x% it would be better than the evade/aim rng. It would give the appropriate classes better sustainability than the mages.

[jepherdy]

Its exactly why they need make others stats active, even if they stack lots of evade, players will stack aim rate too then they will easily counter classes with high evade. its like rock paper and scissors and that's what they exactly did with element. which i think is very balanced. 

 

[Agitodesu]

So in this scenario where mages have maxed out evade because when they legend regular gear having HLT/AGI/% EVADE and whatever else they happen to max out Evade. They also happen to have HLT/AIM on weapon other 2 stats can fill since elements are 99% of damage. For accessories they can easily get Evade/Aim/Hlt and whatever floats there boat for the last stat. So by mix matching and legending/rr gear they can get everything done. Now Lets say im one of those players that have +4-15 gear and don't have 1000$ to spend, the gap gets bigger and feels more unfair. It just doesn't seem balanced. It's a mess, more stats = harder to balance for many reasons.

 

My main point here is what exactly is the point of adding 2 busted stat system when they were removed for a good reason. Your logic doesn't make sense and if it does, it only applies to certain classes you personally want buffed. Because anyone can stack aim and evade without losing primary stats and benefit from it as a hyper stacked player. What you have is not rock paper scissors, it's more like buy 1 get one free for 5 payments of 69$ shipping and tax not included to completely outstack and debilitate anyone who doesn't have both in regards of the evade/aim system.

 

So as a new/casual player they would have to

 

First get the entire main set ie POS/Cerb rings/Hero acc/or anything

Second work on great IM sets to have optimal stats

Third Farm Elements and stack yourself with attacks or resists and both eventually so you don't die in 1 second (but you still do since you havent +20ed your gear)

Fourth Soulcraft to arti or legend, Legend prefereable in order to max out AIM so you can hit players that already maxed evade, while maxing out your evade/Hlt/agi as well

Fifth to enchant your gear to +20 so you don't die in 2 seconds with +0 gear with maxed resists.

Sixth to get basic CON/MAX HP/CD cards so you live longer

 

There are enough things for players to do in order to be viable.

For players that are already stacked you can just Reroll the stats. For newer players the gap just got bigger.

Edited by Agitodesu, 01 September 2017 - 07:59 PM.

[Rossbach]

The problem I have with evade is it leads to 3 things:

 

1. more of a difference between op and non op characters simply due to their stats.

2. Makes pvp more rng based. Why would you want an attack you landed fairly on the other player to miss? "rock paper and scissors" is not fun on a competitive scale and it's just a slap in the face.

3. it does not flinch the opponent ---> they attack you while you are still doing attack animation. This makes slow attacking skills at an even more of a disadvantage than they currently are. Yet again with #2 a hit that you should of fairly landed misses allowing them to get a free hit on you.

 

 

Also, ultimately even with adding 100000's of stats people will find the best ones that fit the meta then simply go with them. As such everyone is forced to go that route if they want to compete.

Edited by Rossbach, 01 September 2017 - 10:30 PM.

[Bustincaps]

Adding Evade back to the game will just make it a huge missing fest again, with all classes sacrificing everything in their build solely to stack Agi/Aim/Evade and half the classes not being able to stack enough Agi/Aim to hit the others. Warriors would be even more obsolete than they are now and PvP would be ruined. As of right now, you actually need to pay attention to where you're running in PvP since people can hit you. Why on earth would you want to go back to a time where certain classes could run around PvP areas effortlessly avoiding all incoming damage, flinches, knockbacks, knockdowns, etc.? The only players back in the day that actually enjoyed Evade were the Agi class players with too much real money to spend on the game, making completely OP characters that no one could even hit. The p2p and f2p gap is already big enough without this issue being re-implemented. We still have big spenders running around with godly stacked chars, but at least f2p players can hit them. I'm also not a fan of seeing non-Agi classes running around with squishy full Agi builds.... it's just weird and sub-par.

 

tl;dr  Evade/Aim/Agi is not the answer.

Edited by Bustincaps, 02 September 2017 - 09:58 AM.

[testg]

It seems that a lot if player keep thinking about evade in the past. The open minded will see how it can work in the future, right now evade and are useless stat that just take up soulcraft space and have not been changed or attempt to be changed in years. This prove that there is not enough developers and staff for this game as if there was some initial investment it would be a much more popular game. Many players here are very intelligent and can see how it can work or can't. But assuming that evade if returned will be the same is silly. Why would dev bring it back without change? I am not wanting or against evade but the thinking of players that automatically assume and say no with conviction is cringey.

For example an idea. What if evade was only limited to thief class? What if evade when proc only works against pattk for 5 second and mattk the next 5 second alternating? What if evade is cap at 5-10-20% etc? What if evade and aim are not related? What if Aim is change to % chance to bypass evade only? Or just say no and not use ur brain is ok too.

[5143121023173906760]

It seems that a lot if player keep thinking about evade in the past. The open minded will see how it can work in the future, right now evade and are useless stat that just take up soulcraft space and have not been changed or attempt to be changed in years. This prove that there is not enough developers and staff for this game as if there was some initial investment it would be a much more popular game. Many players here are very intelligent and can see how it can work or can't. But assuming that evade if returned will be the same is silly. Why would dev bring it back without change? I am not wanting or against evade but the thinking of players that automatically assume and say no with conviction is cringey.

For example an idea. What if evade was only limited to thief class? What if evade when proc only works against pattk for 5 second and mattk the next 5 second alternating? What if evade is cap at 5-10-20% etc? What if evade and aim are not related? What if Aim is change to % chance to bypass evade only? Or just say no and not use ur brain is ok too.

Your example doesn't state anything about the evade system being changed. You're just adding conditions / nerfs won't change much.

The fact that in a AMMORPG you can completely bypass it is gamebreaking. In a game where you need to perform combos and can dodge attacks by simply moving it isn't fair for the majority of the attacks in the game.

At first, the gameplay thought in a way where it could be similar to fighting games. And so each hit landed contributed to your combos. Now the anility to RANDOMLY negate a hit and having a window to move out of the danger although you were being locked is just retarded and not interactive at all, especially in 1vs1.

If you want to play a game with evade rate, there are just so many MMORPGs out there that you can play instead. But people are don't, because they want to have control over moving, attacking and dodging. And adding a random factor to negate hits removes control on 2 of those.
Also the game already have random factors when it comes to crowd control effects, like stun or freeze and are already frustrating when you see that you landed a hit but your opponent is still moving like it was nothing adding more probability is just not how to address the issues that are related to the gameplay.



Sorry if I sounded harsh, but calling out players for not using their brain and that their thoughts are silly and cringey doesn't make you any smarter than them.

[testg]

Your example doesn't state anything about the evade system being changed. You're just adding conditions / nerfs won't change much.

The fact that in a AMMORPG you can completely bypass it is gamebreaking. In a game where you need to perform combos and can dodge attacks by simply moving it isn't fair for the majority of the attacks in the game.

At first, the gameplay thought in a way where it could be similar to fighting games. And so each hit landed contributed to your combos. Now the anility to RANDOMLY negate a hit and having a window to move out of the danger although you were being locked is just retarded and not interactive at all, especially in 1vs1.

If you want to play a game with evade rate, there are just so many MMORPGs out there that you can play instead. But people are don't, because they want to have control over moving, attacking and dodging. And adding a random factor to negate hits removes control on 2 of those.
Also the game already have random factors when it comes to crowd control effects, like stun or freeze and are already frustrating when you see that you landed a hit but your opponent is still moving like it was nothing adding more probability is just not how to address the issues that are related to the gameplay.



Sorry if I sounded harsh, but calling out players for not using their brain and that their thoughts are silly and cringey doesn't make you any smarter than them.

You've have done nothing but prove my point. Offere no other suggestion beside what you know about the previous systems. Whether or not evade is fix to be better or change or remove is yet to be seen but i doubt the dev and staff here will just return it the way it was if they decide. Obvious to me i have no preference as i said many times but this is a fact you overlook because of your thought process. No need to apologize to be harsh, words are words. And each mmorpg is unique and different in mechanic, i simply question why evade and aim is so useless and take up soulcraft space and set item effect etc. even on new items like event im weps.

You are very against your idea of evade, but it seem you may forget that if the staff decide to reintroduce then it will not be your idea of evade but different. Again you have done nothing but prove my point but thanks for your limited input. Also to borrow your word a lot thing in this game may seem "retarded" to people. Good thing it is simply an opinion.

[5143121023173906760]

You keep talking about a new way for evade to work and yet you present an evade rate of 5-10 % as an exemple therefore one can only understand that you're talking about the old evade.

If you have any idea of how you can make evade rate different then just tell us. How do you see how evade would work if it was re introduced ?
You only speak to make fun of people's opinion while giving one that is similar to the ones that want the old evade system back, but claiming that it will be different but doesn't explain how it will be different whatsoever.


The evade stat simply doesn't fit in this game nor this kind of game. There's a difference between bringing back a stat and revamping it completely / making a new one. And I'm all for making a completely different stat.

[Agitodesu]

From what I've heard, popcorn said newer stats aren't possible.The 7th set effect from the valkry sets don't even work. If they remove evade and aim from the soulcraft list, it would make free to play players catch up to the spending whales or have a solid chance to get good rolls. If by chance that popcorn can manage to rework or get outside the box on the new stat working around aim and evade, I'm also in like you said.

 

Evade system is better off worked into a block system. I agree with 514 and some other people here that the evade as a whole isn't very fair and can be somewhat frustrating to some. Back then where someone could have enough evade to afk in battle square for 20 minutes and not die wasn't that new. Of course that actually happened and is an extremity, where testg listed somewhere around 5-20%. There is some sort of logic to this, if you set the evade cap low, then everyone can stack it easily since it's a crappy stat that appears on every piece of gear whether you like it or not. It just implements another system that may or may not cause other stuff to change based on it. It's like adding a useless system for something like 5 %. If you add 20% likewise, it's an easy stat to stack on not to mention how the main point is that it's busted because not only does it evade the damage and elemental damage unlike block, you can also escape the knockdowns/freeze/etc. The middleground is something that would cause cancer because it's just there to be annoying to balance. Balancing skills and how certain classes change because of it is way too much work.

 

All I remember and am still salty is that players actually thought they were really good at a class when they had something like 70% evade and calls the other player trash. It's like you can't even combo 70% of the time and you can't catch 70% of the time and in the middle of your combo they get out and manage to catch you instead. Or afking with flags in bsq and no one could hit them and potions/cons were good enough to make up for the other damage dealt.

 

That is why reworking or removing completely is a better alternative to implementing the system again.

[Popcorn]

From what I've heard, popcorn said newer stats aren't possible.

 

That's not quite correct. But making a whole new stat is a lot of effort and very time consuming and I have a lot on my list to work on that needs to be achieved until early 2018. 

 

The team agrees that the old Aim/Evade system was totally broken and OP and absolutely useless how it was implemented. Also we agree on the fact that it is like a blank if you get those stats on any item. But as you once said (@Agitodesu) I have only 2 arms and one head. And I have to work with the team and I can't just do on what I would like to work on. We are making team decisions. And if the team decides that things are not prioritized it is like this. Besides this even if it would be able to decide everything on my own I would need more than 24 hours a day to get everything done I would like to achieve in a decent time.

 

Additionally I currently have no real idea how we could implement a fair new stat. If you have ideas feel free to share them but don't expect them to come into the came soon.

[Popcorn]

One idea I have and I would like to hear opinions about (in a clear and civil way) would be:

Please know that this are only my very own thoughts for now - nothing is planned nothing is decided by the team or anything. Also all amounts are hypothetical.

 

Offensive

Damage Block Rate (supersedes Evade Rate) - useful for PvP and PvE
 

If you have Damage Block Rate (DBR) 10.0% you can block 10% of the Damage of the enemy (Player in PvP, Monster in PvE) which is max. +5 levels above you. The higher the level of the enemy the lower the block rate will be.

 

No debuffs should be able to be blocked. Edit: and the max block rate needs to be capped at a certain amount.

 

 

 

Defensive

Damage Block Rate Decrease (supersedes Aim Rate) - useful only for PvP
 

If you have Damage Block Rate Decrese (DBRD) 25.0% and your enemy has a Damage Block Rate of 10.0% the enemy will only block 7.5% (25% less).

 

 

 

 

This system might have flaws, things I didn't think of yet, the question if it should be a success rate or a fixed amount (because you don't like randomness in PvP so I think you would prefer fixed), possible side-effects etc. Please don't bash on me for this idea. It was just a rough idea at the moment.

 

 

Edit: and sorry for my bad grammar. I am currently doing several things at the same time.

[testg]

One idea I have and I would like to hear opinions about (in a clear and civil way) would be:
Please know that this are only my very own thoughts for now - nothing is planned nothing is decided by the team or anything. Also all amounts are hypothetical.

Offensive
Damage Block Rate (supersedes Evade Rate) - useful for PvP and PvE

If you have Damage Block Rate (DBR) 10.0% you can block 10% of the Damage of the enemy (Player in PvP, Monster in PvE) which is max. +5 levels above you. The higher the level of the enemy the lower the block rate will be.

No debuffs should be able to be blocked. Edit: and the max block rate needs to be capped at a certain amount.



Defensive
Damage Block Rate Decrease (supersedes Aim Rate) - useful only for PvP

If you have Damage Block Rate Decrese (DBRD) 25.0% and your enemy has a Damage Block Rate of 10.0% the enemy will only block 7.5% (25% less).




This system might have flaws, things I didn't think of yet, the question if it should be a success rate or a fixed amount (because you don't like randomness in PvP so I think you would prefer fixed), possible side-effects etc. Please don't harass me for this idea. It was just a rough though at the moment.

The idea is not bad but the question to me is where the variation would be. If its all class then all class can expect to get the same dmg reduc at lvl 85 once they max the stat so this is a concern unless you can do something where it is either focus more on one stat then the other- similar to your element systems change.

Is this intend for all class and if all class will some class have more than other?

[Popcorn]

The idea is not bad but the question to me is where the variation would be. If its all class then all class can expect to get the same dmg reduc at lvl 85 once they max the stat so this is a concern unless you can do something where it is either focus more on one stat then the other- similar to your element systems change.

Is this intend for all class and if all class will some class have more than other?

 

I see your point. I think it should be available for all classes, but for example X-Spam classes could have a lower Damage Block Rate Decrease cap because they deal enough damage (especially Summoner and Invoker) that there is no need to reduce the enemies Damage Block Rate. 

 

As I said this are just thoughts yet. Nothing is planned out or anything. Everything's hypothetical.

[Agitodesu]

I'd like to mention it should block total damage, because like you should know by now complaints are elemental dps based on x attacks. Nerfing 15 damage to 14 from an invoker is not gonna negate the 3200 from elements. Fair balancing in the pvp scene in lobby and possibly EW, In battlesquare it will be harder for other classes other than summoners/destroyers/invokers/sorcs to kill players with death buffs, that also means those who arent those classes already have no chance which will make the gap bigger.

Edited by Agitodesu, 11 September 2017 - 12:09 PM.

[Popcorn]

I'd like to mention it should block total damage, because like you should know by now complaints are elemental dps based on x attacks. Nerfing 15 damage to 14 from an invoker is not gonna negate the 3200 from elements.

 

Yes final damage. That was my thought as well.

[Agitodesu]

How about the general block, where it only blocks non elemental damage specific to the ninja/dragoon/(twin but has 0 base block). The skill tree for those classes that include block would that get an extra oomf too, now that something hypothetically more useful stat has appeared?

Edited by Agitodesu, 11 September 2017 - 12:13 PM.

[testg]

I see your point. I think it should be available for all classes, but for example X-Spam classes could have a lower Damage Block Rate Decrease cap because they deal enough damage (especially Summoner and Invoker) that there is no need to reduce the enemies Damage Block Rate.

As I said this are just thoughts yet. Nothing is planned out or anything. Everything's hypothetical.

This seems fair so assume that certain class can achieve higher than others for balance. Also hypothetical that it should not be flat block dmg rather % base because of block is flat reduction then it can completely block skills that which proc only by dmg. For example a sorc will do 200 blizzard dmg, if flat block dmg procs and reduc is 200 dmg or more then it will not be affected by blizzard. Unless this is intended. So % of dmg reduc might be better option.

[Apocryphos]

Anything that passively opens a window of opportunity to counter in mid combo by ANY chance is game breaking [keynote passively]. There are active way's in getting out of combo by pressing c and using some sort of super armor /pseudo super armor or for twins using weave in a given window/timeframe.  Ofc this doesn't apply to mage classes since they're kit guarantee's enemy lock down. There's an existing passive out there that is semi OP it's called crazy soul, it's description says something along the lines of 30% chance of ignoring flinch. This is a cancerous skills for physical classes because it ignores hit confirm's all together, this 30% is so broken it can ignore flinch/lift of a storm blade all together, you can't expect to hit that 30% several times in a row can you but nonetheless it's only super armor so they are still vulnerable to debuffs. (ofc it could be a wrong description, to me it seems like 30% chance to activate super armor for 2 seconds.)
So compromise, most player's don't want a passive factor that's not decided by skill? So make it an active dodge a skill similar to that of Twin's weave, change ninja's katar blocking to weave change paladin's shoulder tackle to have block, simple this way a brain is required to dodge/block skills like twins. Now should every class have an active dodging skill? Or am i spouting nonsense then just quickly shoot this idea of my version of compromise.
 
As for DBR/DBRD if you're looking for stat's to supersede aim/evade. I feel like making player's more tankier than they currently are would be counter intuitive. but i'll think of something eventually.

Edited by Apocryphos, 11 September 2017 - 01:30 PM.