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#1 Karazingah

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:28 AM

i thought flinch on first attack of chaincombo got removed from all class but mage still can bang you at the wall 24/7 with first attack of chaincombo and enough attack speed. no way to escape that lock.


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#2 testg

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:43 AM

I believe is only the x spam flinch that was removed. Also I dont see why this is an issue. There is a lot of variables for this lock to be successful. 1 you need fast computer 2 you need to try to push the player to the wall 3 you are ground lock and easily interrupted by another player in group pvp even if you lock another player to the wall 4 the damage is slow so more chance of being saved 5 ground lock depending on vs class is bad because of traps, blizzard, snow blue, fb, barba, rp, etc etc. 6 you have to be patient and wait for a player near the wall unless you are in water bsq map it is a bit easier but 360 control might give issues 7 hard to do when crowded pvp because of lagg. There are many ways to lock that you can never escape from beside this also.

Not sure if this is enough to ask for a nerf. Best to let the staff decide.
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#3 Karazingah

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 02:07 AM

you can argue like this with other class xspam also like overlord or ninja. still got removed


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#4 NeaDCampbell

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 02:33 AM

Additional to that they gain Superarmor. (kinda OP (Superarmor that is))

 

Just saying. xD


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#5 nighty007

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 04:15 AM

Well the only way to catch someone as mage or atleast as sorcerer is to spam the chaincombo. (BSQ .. )
We dont have any other catching skills.


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#6 NeaDCampbell

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 04:39 AM

C'mon has it really become a trend to talk down ones Class out of fake self-pity? (like certain Destroyers (LOL))

 

Sorcerer: Blizzard, Penguin, Ink, Time Freeze, etc

Invoker: Frog, Barbarian, Magnet, Other Awakening Stun, Mudfield, etc.

Summoner: Eletric AOE Bind, Chain Stun, Golgon bugged animation stun, Awakening Debuff (looks like chrystals getting crushed), etc.

 

Again pls dont pity yourself when you dont actually mean it. (and probably know it)

 

Otherwise we all would justify catching with

Overlord: Stumble
Ninja: Sleep Dust, Swift Attack

Archer: Shotdown, Snipe

etc. being the only things to catch with, when its actually not.

 

Back to Topic though.

 

I too would like to question what the reason was as to why the Flinch of Chain Combos was removed from melee classes but not for mages? (and the Superarmor thingy)


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#7 Fliederduft78

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 05:00 AM

Just for clarification.

 

Just the first flinch attack on the x attack was removed for all classes. Melee x combos that are able to flinch with second hit and after are still able to flinch.

 

The Z combo was never touched and so it still flinches.


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#8 NeaDCampbell

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 05:47 AM

Back in the Thread about Overlords Chain Flinch on the first X Attack removed

 

https://forums.warpp...-on-chaincombo/

 

I think what Popcorn said back then was very clear (Thread was about Overlords Chain Flinch)

 

It was stated that the flinch was removed from all other MELEE classes. Not ALL classes.

 

 


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#9 Popcorn

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:08 AM

All first flinches from all x-attacks of all classes has been removed. This is intended.

 

 


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#10 Bustincaps

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 09:05 AM

All first flinches from all x-attacks of all classes has been removed. This is intended.

 

It was removed because having a spammable flinch on the opening chain attack was considered too OP, and rightfully so. Since most classes don't have 2 different chain openers like mages do (X and Z), removing just the X flinch removed the problem all together. The reason for this thread is to mention that you guys seemingly overlooked the fact that mages have a second alternative, and can still spam a chaincombo attack to flinch-lock people, while all other classes no longer can. If melee classes must suffer from players falling through the back of their chaincombo if they start it too close to the enemy (due to the 1st hit not functioning as it should and pushing them back so the other hits connect) while also not being able to flinch-lock, I can understand why this is being brought up since mages have been dominating for a while and are still running around z-spamming.


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#11 Popcorn

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 09:56 AM

Will look into the Z spam thingy


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#12 Agitodesu

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 10:22 AM

Technically, you would have to give up massive dps if you are running chain combo on as an invoker. So basically for more cc, you give up damage. If the Z spam gets the flinch removed then the only thing that will be nerfed will be sorcs ability to catch players under blizzard, or push players into emblems in both lobby and bsq/ew. That would make it so that sorcerers would be a complete potato at catching whilst being a monster locker and the players going support invokers back to dpsing which everyone hates more than a few Z in a lock. People should try playing other classes or something and at least realize the weakness of the so said skill. Sorcs trying to catch with z is not a myth its true, players that say that on the forum aren't pulling that excuse out of their asses.

 

I can guarantee if you walk into some of the pvpers around here only spamming z with the pure intention of the topic where you can't do anything when a mage spams only that, the mage would lose. Not to mention that if a bunch of mages spam z on 1 person that is just the most ridiculous excuse to nerf a skill. there is no counterplay to any locks. A pally can chain combo xxz continuously with no fallback without a wall just like overlords can, savages can lock indefinately, Ninjas can use Rocket punch/Mist/Violent blow, sentinels can lock indefinitely, destroyers can roll/flash, same with summoners and twins, but just like any scenario if someone stops the other player then the lock is released.

 

Also Nea, not sure if that comment was on nighty007, I would like you to try catching a player with those skills by yourself to any pvpers around here, no self pity on that, it's blatant truth. A sorc may get a lucky catch or something with those said skills, but in reality why should a class be able to catch based on pure luck rather than skill? It goes completely against the main purpose of any arcade/fighting game like dragon saga. You just happened to name a buncha sorc cc skills as catching skills.

 

Also again in the end, the skill is a bit strong (I'm not ignorant) and requires the other player to be more cautious, it just needs some type of rework rather than just removing the mechanical structure of the skill if it is going to be changed at all.


Edited by Agitodesu, 24 September 2017 - 11:06 AM.

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#13 TurtleTuber

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 10:57 AM

U would still have the second z/x attack that flinches / knockback like all the other classes also.
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#14 nighty007

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 12:10 PM

C'mon has it really become a trend to talk down ones Class out of fake self-pity? (like certain Destroyers (LOL))

 

Sorcerer: Blizzard, Penguin, Ink, Time Freeze, etc

Invoker: Frog, Barbarian, Magnet, Other Awakening Stun, Mudfield, etc.

Summoner: Eletric AOE Bind, Chain Stun, Golgon bugged animation stun, Awakening Debuff (looks like chrystals getting crushed), etc.

 

Again pls dont pity yourself when you dont actually mean it. (and probably know it)

 

What is your main char name?
You obviously never played 80+ BSQ's based on the things you wrote.
And why would i act like my class (Sorcerer) is weak? I was one of the first people who said heals/slow heals and death buffs should be nerfed/removed ((LOL)). And i know sorc is pretty strong in BSQ because of the many cc spells he have, but in fact sorc has no single catching skills except his chaincombo spam, if you really think ink and time freeze (nobody even uses them in bsq) are good spells for catching you doing something wrong.

I have no problem when people have a different opinion or even are correct and im not, but i dont like it when people are being offensive in the way they write and pretty much have no clue about everything.


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#15 Nobbye

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 12:31 PM

I agree with Agitodesu. Removing flinch on z spam would make sorcerers almost useless in case of catching. Team pvp would require others to catch for you - leaving you as a sorcerer to maintain locks. Not even talking about 1v1.
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#16 TurtleTuber

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:14 PM

You dont need z attacks at all to play sorcerer, just saying. You can catch with fire emblem + blizzard as well as with other skills or how do you think people did pvp before chaincombos were added?

Im not even pro chain flinch nor against it but make it the same for all classes.

Also i do catch alot with time freeze, its an op skill. Dk why people ask campbell if he does pvp. Actually sorcerers awakening skills also have a crowdcontrol stun which no one beside me uses. Its pretty good in group pvp and BSQ.

Its actually a good class, yes its not so easy to catch with it but therefor it can tank, heal, lock and has great aoe skills and everyone can see how hard abused zspam is.

Edited by TurtleTuber, 24 September 2017 - 01:23 PM.

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#17 NeaDCampbell

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 01:46 PM

I do PvP alot actually but on a smaller selected PvP community. (and with different player-made rules)

 

"nobody uses that skill", "its harder to hit/use" and whatever.

 

Some catches, CC or stuns whatever u want to call it.

They come with certain requirements of players habits, position and hitbox awareness (or even HOW EXACTLY they work)

The matter is not if anybody uses them (just because nobody uses them doesnt mean its useless to even try them out)

WHEN do u cast a skill

HOW u cast it

WHERE you cast it

Those questions determine a skills usage and how it can be utilized if u experiment with it.

And maybe Combos that u thought of were impossible before can be made if u experiment long enough :p_hi:

Ofc spamming them 360° no scope in every direction and wondering why it wont hit doesnt solve the problem.

 

My Comments were never meant to be offensive but on the other hand we live in 2k17

I will even apologize for the pride(s) that got hurt.

 

Because of the Vibe I felt from the community lately,

I have commented on this thread in a harsh manner regarding it.

Hence I will think twice from now on before I post my honest opinion.

Sorry.

 

I will leave it as that tho its going off topic.


Edited by NeaDCampbell, 24 September 2017 - 01:51 PM.

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#18 Nobbye

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 02:08 PM

You dont need z attacks at all to play sorcerer, just saying. You can catch with fire emblem + blizzard as well as with other skills or how do you think people did pvp before chaincombos were added?

Im not even pro chain flinch nor against it but make it the same for all classes.

Also i do catch alot with time freeze, its an op skill. Dk why people ask campbell if he does pvp. Actually sorcerers awakening skills also have a crowdcontrol stun which no one beside me uses. Its pretty good in group pvp and BSQ.

Its actually a good class, yes its not so easy to catch with it but therefor it can tank, heal, lock and has great aoe skills and everyone can see how hard abused zspam is.


Yes you dont need them. But shoes also help you with running no? Sorcerer is useful class nevertheless the z stun, just dont understand why you want some classes to not have 1v1 utility against the classes you play? Think wider please.

Sorry for my opening here, just cant watch from the side anymore this kind of attitude. Just a reminder, invokers have the same z spam.
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#19 testg

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 02:52 PM

I propose the staff to also look at archer chain combo stun that has no cd and can infinite lock with no mp cost since we are on the subject of locking and chain combo.
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#20 Agitodesu

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 03:22 PM

Along with that the "fancy" combos aren't supposed to be possible. You can only roll once before a finisher such as the stun. So multiple rolls in either direction were never intended.


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#21 TurtleTuber

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 09:12 PM

Isnt that offtopic? Im sure there were enough debates regarding that topic?.

@Nobbye as i said i dont really care if z stun has flinch or not but make it the same for all classes.

Also i dont see whats the sense of zspming anyways in 1o1? I only use z attack to push / keep them in blizzard and there it doesnt really matter if 2nd or 1st hit flinches.

Using it to spam someone against the wall or to abuse its superarmor everytime u press it to ignore launches / knockbacks as long as u want is clearly a type of abuse.
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#22 Onyzer

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 10:36 PM

I propose the staff to also look at archer chain combo stun that has no cd and can infinite lock with no mp cost since we are on the subject of locking and chain combo.

 

Every class can infinite lock, come on (or at least "disable" the enemy). Even if you need spells, the MP cost isn't huge, and using spells is easier than chain combo in general.

 

Along with that the "fancy" combos aren't supposed to be possible. You can only roll once before a finisher such as the stun. So multiple rolls in either direction were never intended.

 

Yes, that's what the description says. But I don't think it would be a good thing to fix it, since it is a game mechanic now.

 

 

Regarding the Magicians' Z-combos flinch, I think it's not needed to remove it. Sorcerers already have a lack of catching abilities. If people consider it too OP on Invoker (which is not in my opinion) then I guess you can disable it only for Invokers ?


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#23 testg

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 03:21 AM


Isnt that offtopic? Im sure there were enough debates regarding that topic?.

@Nobbye as i said i dont really care if z stun has flinch or not but make it the same for all classes.

Also i dont see whats the sense of zspming anyways in 1o1? I only use z attack to push / keep them in blizzard and there it doesnt really matter if 2nd or 1st hit flinches.

Using it to spam someone against the wall or to abuse its superarmor everytime u press it to ignore launches / knockbacks as long as u want is clearly a type of abuse.

Super armor is bugged for years and does ignore knockdown on occassion so this can be remove or fixed however staff wants. Again with the word abuse. You are delusional when you say locking an opponent to the wall is abuse. The situation has to be correct for this to happen. Casting barbarian when a player is on the floor is also abuse. Using fb on air and floor is abuse. chain combo stun forever is abuse. sorc freeze lock is abuse. Sd + hammer is abuse. You want this to go on? All of it is avoidable your lack of skills to avoid such a situation is want needs rework.

Posting nonsense on forum to nerf classes is abuse.

Edited by testg, 25 September 2017 - 03:23 AM.

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#24 testg

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 03:32 AM

Every class can infinite lock, come on (or at least "disable" the enemy). Even if you need spells, the MP cost isn't huge, and using spells is easier than chain combo in general.

You missed my point. If we look at the way some players here look at it then everything is abuse and needs to be remove. Also for archer rolling stun the fairest thing might be to give internal cooldown for it like summoner zx stun to prevent infinite lock. But my logic says it is not needed because it is avoidable and leaves the caster open to get stun or frozen etc. just like mage z attk.

Edited by testg, 25 September 2017 - 03:33 AM.

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#25 TurtleTuber

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 04:20 AM

Casting barb when someone is at the floor is no abuse and a bad comparision. How are you supposed to hit someone if you cast it in the air??

And if you say the easy spamable flinch/ superarmor is totally okay then its fine.

But why did it got removed for the other classes if theres no problem with?
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