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Disable WoE pots OR hike their KP price


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#1 MyVictories

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 02:55 AM

WoE potions have dumbed down this server from the start, and continue to plague the meta despite every new update. They encourage a massive character imbalance, making their continued abuse bad for Odin's long term health.

The biggest change disabling woe pots would bring is making classes besides knight relevant again. Priests have been crying alone in their churches and alchemists are not even half as appealing as they ought to be. Let's not even get started on wizards right now being almost useless end-game, and the less said about trigger happy Gfisters who target even assassins in WoE, the better.

By disabling them selectively or completely, you encourage more cooperative play by making re:start less of a solo immortal-potter game that it is right now. It would also encourage smarter, more creative and competitive strategies in every aspect of RO, especially WoE and MVP hunting.

If you could work towards disabling them or maybe doubling or tripling their cash shop/silvervine price before the year ends, it would be a big balance shift for the current meta which will have a positive impact on server health and morale.

Re:start is already months old, the honeymoon period is coming to a close and it's about time the training wheels come off. If you are implementing stuff like upgrade events etc, "We need Woe potions to make some money" as a reason becomes less and less convincing as the server gets older. Other re:start servers are already moving beyond the woe pot abuse meta, iRO needs to plan for it, too.


Edited by MyVictories, 24 October 2017 - 04:01 PM.

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#2 Exuro

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 02:58 AM

I love WoE pots, although I agree that they need to make these harder to get eventually (but hopefully not too pay-to-win), especially when Alchemists arrive.


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#3 Hrishi

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 03:06 AM

Not that I disagree with WoE pots being bad for the server in general, but it's too late. Making this change now does not actually change much in the current state of the game. The cost of Silvervine is already quite high, so much that very soon it will not be worth using Silvervine in order to get WoE pots because NPC white pots will be cheaper. This doesn't even get into what happens when Alchemists and Ranked Slims come into the game.

 

I do not agree that Alchemists are unappealing, and if you think this is true you might have a severe misunderstanding about the mechanics of the class. WoE Pots are no substitute for ranked slims and any top tier WoE guild should be using ranked slims. Not only do they heal significantly more, but they also weigh less. WoE pots are frankly terrible in comparison.

 

Once Silvervine hit ~760k per box (off memory, I might be slightly off), you might as well start using NPC whites because their value becomes similar. And of course, Silvervine will continue to rise while White pots will stay the same. There is also the option of using the Halloween pet with Fresh Fish which is quite comparable to using WoE pots.

 

Therefore, I do not think it is fair to newer players to increase the cost now when the benefit is negligible. I would be all for disabling them entirely, but it's not something I think Warp Portal are prepared to do. But once again, it's too late. WoE pots have already pumped tons of zeny into the servers and that is not going away anytime soon, not even if you remove them.


Edited by Hrishi, 24 October 2017 - 03:07 AM.

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#4 toastbr0t

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 03:15 AM

Not that I disagree with WoE pots being bad for the server in general, but it's too late. Making this change now does not actually change much in the current state of the game. The cost of Silvervine is already quite high, so much that very soon it will not be worth using Silvervine in order to get WoE pots because NPC white pots will be cheaper. This doesn't even get into what happens when Alchemists and Ranked Slims come into the game.

 

I do not agree that Alchemists are unappealing, and if you think this is true you might have a severe misunderstanding about the mechanics of the class. WoE Pots are no substitute for ranked slims and any top tier WoE guild should be using ranked slims. Not only do they heal significantly more, but they also weigh less. WoE pots are frankly terrible in comparison.

 

Once Silvervine hit ~760k per box (off memory, I might be slightly off), you might as well start using NPC whites because their value becomes similar. And of course, Silvervine will continue to rise while White pots will stay the same. There is also the option of using the Halloween pet with Fresh Fish which is quite comparable to using WoE pots.

 

Therefore, I do not think it is fair to newer players to increase the cost now when the benefit is negligible. I would be all for disabling them entirely, but it's not something I think Warp Portal are prepared to do. But once again, it's too late. WoE pots have already pumped tons of zeny into the servers and that is not going away anytime soon, not even if you remove them.

woe pots heal more than whites

 

 

also +1 woe pots ruin the game, although it is a little late


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#5 MyVictories

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 03:34 AM

Not that I disagree with WoE pots being bad for the server in general, but it's too late. Making this change now does not actually change much in the current state of the game. The cost of Silvervine is already quite high, so much that very soon it will not be worth using Silvervine in order to get WoE pots because NPC white pots will be cheaper. This doesn't even get into what happens when Alchemists and Ranked Slims come into the game.

 

I do not agree that Alchemists are unappealing, and if you think this is true you might have a severe misunderstanding about the mechanics of the class. WoE Pots are no substitute for ranked slims and any top tier WoE guild should be using ranked slims. Not only do they heal significantly more, but they also weigh less. WoE pots are frankly terrible in comparison.

 

Once Silvervine hit ~760k per box (off memory, I might be slightly off), you might as well start using NPC whites because their value becomes similar. And of course, Silvervine will continue to rise while White pots will stay the same. There is also the option of using the Halloween pet with Fresh Fish which is quite comparable to using WoE pots.

 

Therefore, I do not think it is fair to newer players to increase the cost now when the benefit is negligible. I would be all for disabling them entirely, but it's not something I think Warp Portal are prepared to do. But once again, it's too late. WoE pots have already pumped tons of zeny into the servers and that is not going away anytime soon, not even if you remove them.

 

 

 

I don't see how it's too late in any regard, of course it would have an immediate impact on the game, it may be unfair to hike price right now, but is it really unfair in an economy that's already inflated most items for new players? If you hike their cash shop price, you make new players need priests and other support classes much more than they currently do. People would not be able to go from 0 to 99 in 4 days, again adding to longevity. Moreover, a server wide disable would change the game meta instantly. You would see a major drop in the importance of knights straight away, end-game parties would be more balanced with support classes being far more in demand which would benefit the full 2-2 releases as well. MVPing would become more creatively competitive again, WoE would be instantly impacted because everything would be happening 4x faster due to people actually, you know, dying to things that are not a Gfist.

Your point about brewers is only party valid, the problem is in thinking that every guild can have ranked potters supplying them to easily substitute WoE pots. If you discount the top 4 or 5 guilds in restart, most players will still rely on WoE pots with how accessible they are through the cash shop. If you disable woe pots, it will largely impact alchemists by making them the prime zeny makers in the meta simply because of no cash shop competition for their pricing. You also force players to think creatively and avoid dying easily if they cannot afford 1000 slim whites every woe. 

Silvervine hitting 750K will not be good enough either -  WoE pots weigh 2/3rds of what NPC whites weigh, added to the bigger heal buff advantage. Don't forget to factor in the SP item/recovery redundancy that woe blues have forced from the start of this server.

You can't kill the zeny inflation at this point, but you can change the meta. WP does not have rights to change the hardwired imbalance coded into the game right now, but this is a change that they have the control to make. Especially when other re:start servers have realized it and are moving in that direction. I don't mind stuff like upgrade events once in a while as long as that ensures everyone isn't playing an immortal character (knight) in every mode of the game.

 


Edited by MyVictories, 24 October 2017 - 03:38 AM.

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#6 Stephcake

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 04:02 AM

+1

The game would be way better without WoE pots.
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#7 bigcfromrbc

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 04:33 AM

-1 from me.   The WoE pots allow people to level alts.  It actually encourages it in my opinion.   Why?   It's easier.   People constantly buy WoE pots for leveling and WoE.    That's where the majority of my spending goes too actually.    Could I afford to buy whites from an NPC?  Sure.   It's not as effective tho.     If you raise the price of WoE pots you'd have to lower the price of BM's and such to compensate for it.    I spent more WPE on WoE pots then BM's and such.     Especially at the higher levels when I was grinding hard to level.    It would be dumb for them on the business end to remove the WoE pots.    Will people buy slims from alchemist?  Sure.   Will people continue to buy WoE pots?  Of course.   They won't remove a revenue source.   It's not smart business wise.    If they raise the price people will stop buying them.    You can run yourself out of business.   Being a business owner I know this.   I see it happen locally where I live.    People out price their customers.   Like a restaurant that I eat breakfast at about every morning.   He is slowly running off his business cause he continues to raise his prices.    A dozen eggs here cost 1.69 and that's retail price.   He gets them cheaper.   One egg cost 1.99.    I won't be going there to breakfast much more.    WoE pots are fine as they are.  Alchemist are coming out soon and they can make pots.   You don't have to buy WoE pots if you don't want to.    Leave the rest of us alone that does.


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#8 Stephcake

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 04:43 AM

You know how people saved money on pots without WoE pots?

By partying with priests, which would be encouraged if they didn't exist.

The complaints are less about "making things harder for people" and more about general game balance.

Edited by Stephcake, 24 October 2017 - 04:45 AM.

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#9 MyVictories

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 06:02 AM

-1 from me.   The WoE pots allow people to level alts.  It actually encourages it in my opinion.   Why?   It's easier.   People constantly buy WoE pots for leveling and WoE.    That's where the majority of my spending goes too actually.    Could I afford to buy whites from an NPC?  Sure.   It's not as effective tho.     If you raise the price of WoE pots you'd have to lower the price of BM's and such to compensate for it.    I spent more WPE on WoE pots then BM's and such.     Especially at the higher levels when I was grinding hard to level.    It would be dumb for them on the business end to remove the WoE pots.    Will people buy slims from alchemist?  Sure.   Will people continue to buy WoE pots?  Of course.   They won't remove a revenue source.   It's not smart business wise.    If they raise the price people will stop buying them.    You can run yourself out of business.   Being a business owner I know this.   I see it happen locally where I live.    People out price their customers.   Like a restaurant that I eat breakfast at about every morning.   He is slowly running off his business cause he continues to raise his prices.    A dozen eggs here cost 1.69 and that's retail price.   He gets them cheaper.   One egg cost 1.99.    I won't be going there to breakfast much more.    WoE pots are fine as they are.  Alchemist are coming out soon and they can make pots.   You don't have to buy WoE pots if you don't want to.    Leave the rest of us alone that does.

 

Well then from a business standpoint, it also makes sense for WP to have Mystic card albums in the cash shop right now, to enable MVP cards from day 1 and have them sold in the cash shop as premium items, to enable GTB card in the game, to sell all these costumes with the buffs they were meant to have, and so on.

But they're not doing any of these things on re:start, because they are trying to achieve game balance rather than just let it turn into a cash cow fest server that shuts down after 3 months of nostalgia value has run out.

Disabling woe pot meta goes along these same lines. It introduces an instantly positive change that no other current modification can make to restart. The server is older now, as I said, the training wheels can come off. Odin doesn't need EZmode anymore especially when it has completely broken game balance (read: knight v/s any support char)

For every second that any character takes damage (or loses SP) and can't woe pot it back immediately, a support skill or buff gains more value. This applies to PvE as well as WoE. They are releasing all 2-2 next month which is a LOT of support play, it would make even more sense to disable a game changing cash shop item in order to maximize the inherent value of all the new characters being introduced. 

To further simplify the infallibility of the logic here: the more valuable an individual's HP and SP is, the more the current meta people are playing in will align with how RO was originally designed to be. Right now it has no value, because it can be infinitely replenished if you're rich iRL or just have some zeny at hand. And if you're a knight (already OP on restart) then it makes you a walking god in every mode of the game, further more killing the value of other classes, killing creativity and most certainly killing long term competition and economies.


Edited by MyVictories, 24 October 2017 - 06:04 AM.

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#10 bigcfromrbc

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 06:16 AM

All WoE pots does is further expose the weakness of other classes.  


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#11 Niriw

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 06:34 AM

WoE pots are fine, once Silvervine gets too expensive (which will be fairly soon it seems) Alchemists will be go-to choice for HP healing items and Strawberry farmers for SP. And if someone wants to pay 5c for the convenience of having potions anywhere, let them pay for it.

 

Let's see what happens when Kiel and Biolab comes into play, or Hugel, Abyss Lake and Juperos, I doubt people will be able to solo those place, parties should be the norm. Yes it sucks and has sucked up to this point, but removing them right now, is not a good idea.


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#12 Rathlord

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 06:50 AM

All WoE pots does is further expose the weakness of other classes.  

 

You are remarkably short sighted. It exposes the *normal, intended* weakness of all classes in the game. Wasn't ever meant to be played like this. I agree with OP, at the very least they need to be disabled for WoE for the good of the game. Anyone playing WoE right now can see the remarkable tedium that the pots cause, the imbalance (sins are basically unplayable, we gonna talk about that?), and the pressure to spend real money or be at a zeny disadvantage compared to other players if you can't.

 

We try to buy sv boxes for our members that need them for woe, but this is a *significant* cost for us. In addition to the points already brought up, WoE pots make it easier for guilds that are already big and in control of castles to stay that way, because castle loot means they can afford WoE pots for their members. Whereas smaller guilds and those just starting up may not be able to afford them, leading to them being unable to take castles, leading to a feedback loop where the small stay small and the big get bigger. This might sound good to some of you in the bigger guilds, but if you feel that way- shame on you anyway.

 

For a healthy server, especially in WoE, this is a change that needs to happen. I am generally okay with WoE pots in pve content, but ironically WoE pots really shouldn't be in WoE.


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#13 Stephcake

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 07:08 AM

You are remarkably short sighted. It exposes the *normal, intended* weakness of all classes in the game. Wasn't ever meant to be played like this. I agree with OP, at the very least they need to be disabled for WoE for the good of the game. Anyone playing WoE right now can see the remarkable tedium that the pots cause, the imbalance (sins are basically unplayable, we gonna talk about that?), and the pressure to spend real money or be at a zeny disadvantage compared to other players if you can't.

We try to buy sv boxes for our members that need them for woe, but this is a *significant* cost for us. In addition to the points already brought up, WoE pots make it easier for guilds that are already big and in control of castles to stay that way, because castle loot means they can afford WoE pots for their members. Whereas smaller guilds and those just starting up may not be able to afford them, leading to them being unable to take castles, leading to a feedback loop where the small stay small and the big get bigger. This might sound good to some of you in the bigger guilds, but if you feel that way- shame on you anyway.

For a healthy server, especially in WoE, this is a change that needs to happen. I am generally okay with WoE pots in pve content, but ironically WoE pots really shouldn't be in WoE.


This. Well said.
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#14 MuffinMikey

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 07:12 AM

-1 


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#15 Niriw

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 07:19 AM

You are remarkably short sighted. It exposes the *normal, intended* weakness of all classes in the game. Wasn't ever meant to be played like this. I agree with OP, at the very least they need to be disabled for WoE for the good of the game. Anyone playing WoE right now can see the remarkable tedium that the pots cause, the imbalance (sins are basically unplayable, we gonna talk about that?), and the pressure to spend real money or be at a zeny disadvantage compared to other players if you can't.

 

We try to buy sv boxes for our members that need them for woe, but this is a *significant* cost for us. In addition to the points already brought up, WoE pots make it easier for guilds that are already big and in control of castles to stay that way, because castle loot means they can afford WoE pots for their members. Whereas smaller guilds and those just starting up may not be able to afford them, leading to them being unable to take castles, leading to a feedback loop where the small stay small and the big get bigger. This might sound good to some of you in the bigger guilds, but if you feel that way- shame on you anyway.

 

For a healthy server, especially in WoE, this is a change that needs to happen. I am generally okay with WoE pots in pve content, but ironically WoE pots really shouldn't be in WoE.

Assassins have always sucked for WoE, they are barely viable with EDP and using the double SB glitch (which I don't know if it works anymore), and from what I've read, GX also sucks on 3rds for WoE (they seem to be the kings of instance runs though). Right now, all they can do is spam GT with status jur.

 

If you are a smaller guild and don't have money to give your members WoE pots as a GL, I recommend doing guild fun raising events, it's easier to buy SV for cheap if you bulks of it. Or even better, don't use SV and instead hand out alternative healing methods, Mastelas and Strawberries, and even YBerries or YSeeds for your monks and knights, these methods are far more efficient, but they require effort to acquire.

 

Removing them right now, would hinder new players, everyone had a chance to use them, don't screw people that are just coming in and might need them for leveling, since leveling parties are far more rare than they were 1 month ago.


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#16 senpa1

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 07:34 AM

I don't think they will remove them. The price is naturally increasing though. 


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#17 bigcfromrbc

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 08:31 AM

Nothing shortsighted about it.    The issue for WoE isn't the pots, but its the role of the classes.    Even with the release of the new classes Knights will reign supreme.   Even if you remove the pots that fact isn't changed.     


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#18 Stephcake

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 09:07 AM

Assassins have always sucked for WoE, they are barely viable with EDP and using the double SB glitch (which I don't know if it works anymore), and from what I've read, GX also sucks on 3rds for WoE (they seem to be the kings of instance runs though). Right now, all they can do is spam GT with status jur.

If you are a smaller guild and don't have money to give your members WoE pots as a GL, I recommend doing guild fun raising events, it's easier to buy SV for cheap if you bulks of it. Or even better, don't use SV and instead hand out alternative healing methods, Mastelas and Strawberries, and even YBerries or YSeeds for your monks and knights, these methods are far more efficient, but they require effort to acquire.

Removing them right now, would hinder new players, everyone had a chance to use them, don't screw people that are just coming in and might need them for leveling, since leveling parties are far more rare than they were 1 month ago.

Part of the reason leveling parties are rarer is because with WoE pots, people just solo, though.

Removing them would increase party play.

Also, from what I've heard: pRO actually did remove the box we have and replaced it with just blue pots - which is an option I'd approve of. (Disclaimer: hearsay, haven't confirmed it)

Edited by Stephcake, 24 October 2017 - 09:09 AM.

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#19 Xellie

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 09:13 AM

I think it's too late to remove them, the damage is done. Those of us who wanted to max level / level alts have done so. We can look behind us and say "well it would have been more fun to party" but the fact is that there's nobody left for newer/lower level players to party because we all shot ahead with WoE pots. 

 

There's no point leaving them stranded. The WoE pots have to stay due to the decreasing population. 


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#20 EwoI

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 09:51 AM

I can barely afford to WoE right now with the price of silvervine, so nah? I'm having to ask guildies for silvervine in order to leech them because I can't otherwise.

 

Sounds like a good change to scare away the players that don't drop $50 a month.

 

 

Part of the reason leveling parties are rarer is because with WoE pots, people just solo, though.

Removing them would increase party play.

Also, from what I've heard: pRO actually did remove the box we have and replaced it with just blue pots - which is an option I'd approve of. (Disclaimer: hearsay, haven't confirmed it)

 

That's not true at all. Most of the reason people don't party is the renewal mechanics. (Also there is loads of people partying in GD ;) )

 

Priests can't support any decent party with that 1200 heal.

 

Removing them will just make people quit so even less parties.


Edited by EwoI, 24 October 2017 - 10:09 AM.

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#21 Stephcake

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 11:29 AM

If your heal is that low, you're doing it wrong :P

I agree that Renewal mechanics screwed priests over first, but you can't deny there would be more of a demand for priests if WoE pots didn't exist.
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#22 Dythe

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 12:37 PM

If your heal is that low, you're doing it wrong :P

 

Yeahhh... Maybe a fresh/undergeared priest but such a priest shouldn't be solo-supporting a more serious party anyway. Especially not without bard/dancer out yet.

 

Anyway +1 to this, I agree that the WoE pots make many aspects of the game either more trivialized or more imbalanced.

 

Also plenty of people still level alts and do parties still so I dunno why people are saying that isn't a thing. Plus WoE pots or no, if parties truly didn't exist, FS acos would still be up a creek, unless you just leech yourself. But that's really not something that should be expected, much less considered mandatory.


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#23 bigcfromrbc

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 02:01 PM

I have trouble finding a party on my Wiz.   A lot of times when I do finally have one my leveling is limited since I had to spend so much time looking.


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#24 MyVictories

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 03:57 PM

I have trouble finding a party on my Wiz.   A lot of times when I do finally have one my leveling is limited since I had to spend so much time looking.


^ Wizards, priests, and any other support or flee based character (looking at you, blacksmiths) have a tough time getting parties because everyone just wants woe potting solo knights in their party.
 

 

Assassins have always sucked for WoE, they are barely viable with EDP and using the double SB glitch (which I don't know if it works anymore), and from what I've read, GX also sucks on 3rds for WoE (they seem to be the kings of instance runs though). Right now, all they can do is spam GT with status jur.

 

If you are a smaller guild and don't have money to give your members WoE pots as a GL, I recommend doing guild fun raising events, it's easier to buy SV for cheap if you bulks of it. Or even better, don't use SV and instead hand out alternative healing methods, Mastelas and Strawberries, and even YBerries or YSeeds for your monks and knights, these methods are far more efficient, but they require effort to acquire.

 

Removing them right now, would hinder new players, everyone had a chance to use them, don't screw people that are just coming in and might need them for leveling, since leveling parties are far more rare than they were 1 month ago.


New players do not need a cash shop infinite recovery item to level. That is a crutch that we got dependent on, but new players are the last ones to need them. It's like playing RO with cheat codes on. It was never designed to be this way, people leveled and had fun just fine in the old days of RO when having support characters in your party was actually a thing, people hunted together to survive. 

So what if it slows the leveling process down? Wasn't getting to 99 supposed to feel good in the first place? Now people can do it in a week and just sit AFK at a guild spot waiting to play WoE 2 hours a week. What a terrible meta for server longevity.


Disabling WoE pots, at least in selective areas of the game (woe) if not in all aspects, is the change restart needs, even if isn't something all players may want. It's like a drug old players are used to, they will be in withdrawal if they are initially disabled, but it would be extremely healthy for server longevity even if disabled at this point (we still don't have all 2-2), and it would instantly shift character balance. My main is a knight, but I would absolutely love for knights to not be the only thing anyone wants to play alongside.


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#25 EwoI

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 05:24 PM

Disabling WoE pots only benefits the players that actually spend money in the game. They can still sell KP items to buy whites / strawberry. You're actually making it pay to win.

 

This only hurts free to play players and pushes those players to either move on or consider activities that might harm their account.


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