131 replies to this topic

[ultrahiangle12]

Bots have been botting steadily since the beginning of the server. On Nov 7 the price of Elu was 85k. On Nov 8 Amistr Bag was implemented. That was 5 days ago. It's Nov 13 and the cheapest Elu vending now is 150k. The cause of the price jump of Elu is literally just the Amistr Bag. It has nothing to do with Ragial abuse or bots.

 

it is obviously impacted by both short term and long term factors/tends. the economy is not a trivial system that can be broken down into a few simple factors. (not to mention a psychological compenent which is hard to quantify)

 

i don't see what you are trying to say by pointing out that elu and ray cards had a big price jump as a result of amistr bag.

Edited by ultrahiangle12, 13 November 2017 - 11:53 AM.

[Seasmoke]

it is obviously impacted by both short term and long term factors/tends. the economy is not a trivial system that can be broken down into a few simple factors. (not to mention a psychological compenent which is hard to quantify)

 

i don't see what you are trying to say by pointing out that elu and ray cards had a big price jump as a result of amistr bag.

 

Yeah inflation from bots may be responsible for a single digit percentage of the price increase of Elu over the last 5 days. We're seeing a 75% increase in a very short period of time. I'm not trying to say it, I'm saying it. The hate towards the market, the suppliers, and ragial is completely misdirected in this case.
 

Edited by Seasmoke, 13 November 2017 - 11:59 AM.

[Cyncienta]

Bots have been botting steadily since the beginning of the server. On Nov 7 the price of Elu was 85k. On Nov 8 Amistr Bag was implemented. That was 5 days ago. It's Nov 13 and the cheapest Elu vending now is 150k. The cause of the price jump of Elu is literally just the Amistr Bag. It has nothing to do with Ragial abuse or bots. Same story with Raydric Card because it goes in the Amistr Bag.

There are lessons from econ 101. There are examples very clear like yours. And nope, no way to make it clearer.

And I referred the scamming for when someone offers to buy an item to a nobb for less than the real value. Now they can just check ragial an get the right price.
And it's the answer to all the questions about selling loot to npc.

Yes bit is a huge problem, and affect us all... for a while the firelock card was under 1mill z... bc if bots. So its affecting in different ways. We have this problem we need to think how to deal with it. I'm trying to see the positive here otherwise more ppl qutting and less fun in the game. I still do a lot of z with bot and abuses. It's not imposs task.

GMs could do better but there is a lot of burocracy too. And sigh.. Idk if we ever can make ppp see the positive side ever XD

[Amongluttony]

Are you comparing it to what's currently in the game right now? Or what you expect will be implemented from renewal? I should say I haven't played renewal so admittedly I don't know what's in store for the future of Odin. I'm judging Amistr Bag based on the items we currently have. Endure is an MVP Card. Greed can double farming speed depending on the map. Many of the other skills can be compared to having a third accessory slot. +1 to all stats may not matter much in renewal mechanics but it's still the most stats in any garment. Exp and Drops +2-5% is just a small boost but it's a unique effect that applies universally. 3 sp per kill speeds up farming immensely by cutting regen time, alleviating supply cost and freeing up weight limit. It has more defense than a Manteau without the class requirement. By what scale of power are you judging it?

 

This garment is better than the actual ones? yeah

Is OP? No

What is coming from renewal OP garments?

 

Heroic Back Pack [1] Give you greed skill lv 1 and depends in your stats and upgrade give you bonus, Example:

 

If your HBP is upgrade to +7 and your VIT is 90+ (only base VIT, the bonus stats dont help) give you resistance to neutral attacks 5%, if you HBP is upgrade +9 or higher give you another 5%

 

Archangel Wings [1] Enchants available via Silvervines, example: Heal Amount lv 5 Heal +20% / Increase the SP consumtion 15%

 

And finally the worse one, even with jRO kafra items is still the best garment right now lol, just check:

 

Fallen Angel Wings [1]

 

Luk + 2
Atk + 1 for every 20 base Str.
Matk + 1 for every 20 base Int.
Aspd + 1% for every 20 base Agi.
Increases long-ranged damage on targets by 1% for every 20 base Dex.
Increases critical damage on targets by 1% for every 20 base Luk.
Reduces damage taken from Neutral property attacks by 1% for every 20 base Vit.

 

Is not good enought? dont worry, there are enchants available and of course at your choice, a good example: Spell enchant lv 6 (+21 MATK -10% cast time)...oh i forgot, you can give 3 enchants the same time or different to the garment and the last one is more powerful Spell enchant lv 7 (+24 MATK -10 cas time)

 

So, this is what coming to Odin, no yet but soon, Archangel and Fallen wings come after of malangdo get implement (so after of 3rds class coming to the server), so... here are the garments release from Kafra shop to iRO (kRO have so many worse things, but in costumes lol) listed from weak to nightmare:

Amistr Bag actually in game (still trying to figure where is the OP thing everyone cry about it...)

Archangel Wings alone is just a garment without stats or power but with good enchants

Heroic Back Pack Here is where Nightmare start, there is no garment in the actual game or future beat it so yeah here is the 1st OP garment from Kafra shop.

Fallen Angel Wings Here is the problem, this is what you can call OP

 

As i already told you Fallen and archangel wings come after of 3rds class so dont worry, but since HBP is already with all effects from kafra and dont need enchants is there a chance to come into the server in any moment.

[Seasmoke]

Maybe I misunderstand the intentions of WP but I was under the impression that Odin would be a hybrid server between Classic and Renewal with custom balance tweaks, additions and omissions. Is the expectation of the community that Odin will follow in Renewal's footsteps?

 

It may be that those descriptions are incomplete, but I think Amistr looks as strong or stronger for farming than all of those garments except maybe HBP.

 

You could actually take the +9 effect from Amistr, put it on a slotted Hood or a Muffler and that item would be the new best in slot garment compared to what we had in the game before the Amistr was implemented. You could do the same thing with the +1 stats. You could do the same thing with the Exp/Drops effect. And the same thing with the random skill. Hopefully that illustrates how powerful it is?

 

People can say it doesn't effect WoE so it doesn't matter, but just ask them what equipment they're making right now and check what they're actually wearing. The people saying it doesn't "impact" the game are either ignorant or hypocritical because I guarantee you they are either wearing an Amistr or making one soon. PvE and WoE are married. That's kind of what makes RO interesting.

Edited by Seasmoke, 13 November 2017 - 03:45 PM.

[Panteperu]

The impact is too low to be noticed, +1 stats? That is nothing, maybe the +1vit and +1dex are the most useful, but:

Will the garment allow you to kill someone you couldnt kill before? No

Will the garment allow you to survive an attack you couldnt survive before? No

 

Exp? Drop? With Vip bonus you can get 175% exp if you add a 4% from the +8 upgrade, the total is 179% exp. Do you consider this broken?

The same goes with drops, add a +4% to you current 150% drop with vip. 154%.

[Kailash]

The impact is too low to be noticed, +1 stats? That is nothing, maybe the +1vit and +1dex are the most useful, but:

Will the garment allow you to kill someone you couldnt kill before? No

Will the garment allow you to survive an attack you couldnt survive before? No

 

The garment gives you convenience that you couldn't get earlier. Greed for example, is amazing for knights. Cards that go on accessories (hide, sight, magnum break) are not really needed anymore. You can just make an amistr bag with one of those skills, and use 2 other accessories. Allows you to min-max and saves you the trouble of swapping gear. I think that is pretty significant impact.

Edited by Kailash, 13 November 2017 - 07:27 PM.

[rhexis]

The impact is too low to be noticed, +1 stats? That is nothing, maybe the +1vit and +1dex are the most useful, but:

Will the garment allow you to kill someone you couldnt kill before? No

Will the garment allow you to survive an attack you couldnt survive before? No

 

Exp? Drop? With Vip bonus you can get 175% exp if you add a 4% from the +8 upgrade, the total is 179% exp. Do you consider this broken?

The same goes with drops, add a +4% to you current 150% drop with vip. 154%.

 

It may not be "overly broken", but it is easily the best garment available in game now, and it' not OP priced (unless you consider upgrading to +8/+9/+10.

 

You are also not considering that it comes with a skill.

 

Take for example you have a teleport skill + raydric, this opens up your accessory for another +4 stat item (Mantis Ring, Zerom Glove, etc). That itself is a great bonus IMO.

[Panteperu]

Still, it is far from broken.

 

If you dont want to switch equips, you can only carry 1 enchant, which will be replace for +3vit, on your accesory (broken?) or the sign accesory, which still wont allow you to 1hit ko anybody.

[Seasmoke]

The impact is too low to be noticed, +1 stats? That is nothing, maybe the +1vit and +1dex are the most useful, but:

Will the garment allow you to kill someone you couldnt kill before? No

Will the garment allow you to survive an attack you couldnt survive before? No

 

Exp? Drop? With Vip bonus you can get 175% exp if you add a 4% from the +8 upgrade, the total is 179% exp. Do you consider this broken?

The same goes with drops, add a +4% to you current 150% drop with vip. 154%.

 

When you leave out the two most powerful effects on the item it seems like willful ignorance. Killing people isn't the only measure of an item's power. The power of the item isn't much of a problem to me. It's more a nitpick. I think the problem is that the quest is going away and new players won't be able to get it. I just find it strange that so many people on the forums like to say the item is not powerful while simultaneously farming the hell out of it. The history of Raydric and Elu prices tell the story.

Edited by Seasmoke, 13 November 2017 - 08:19 PM.

[Panteperu]

I am not sure if you have played ro or any other mmorpg game before. 

These are events, just like the halloween pets, new players wont be able to get them if they just joined, but the event will come back sometime in the future.

New events will be implemented and will be taken out, so is not a bigdeal.

 

This bag is not the ultimate bag, neither an exceptional one, i still stick to my mufflers, since i play many accounts, there is no way i can get 6-7 raydrics for me and wife for every account or even worse, one for every enchanted bag. 

 

Yet, i have made around 20+ bag already. 

[pandapants]

The biggest issue I have with the amistr bag is that is makes every other garment nearly obsolete. The effects are good, but not broken. However, compared to the other options available it leaves no interesting choices as a player. You're either optimal with amistr, or you're sub-optimal with a set of pauldrons

[RealGarion]

Edit : nvm

 

amistr bag by itself replaces every other garment that is currently avaible in the game.

 

 

 

Edited by RealGarion, 14 November 2017 - 02:35 AM.

[Navy]

Bots have been botting steadily since the beginning of the server. On Nov 7 the price of Elu was 85k. On Nov 8 Amistr Bag was implemented. That was 5 days ago. It's Nov 13 and the cheapest Elu vending now is 150k. The cause of the price jump of Elu is literally just the Amistr Bag. It has nothing to do with Ragial abuse or bots. Same story with Raydric Card because it goes in the Amistr Bag.

 

Then how come other stuff has 3x in prices as well. Firelock for example? Can you put a firelock in the amirst bag too, gee that would be awesome?

[Seasmoke]

Then how come other stuff has 3x in prices as well. Firelock for example? Can you put a firelock in the amirst bag too, gee that would be awesome?

 

I haven't been to Amatsu dungeon so I won't pretend to know what's going on with that one. I can only speculate.

 

Inflation plays an equal role on every item, so that's a small part of it. There are a lot of things that can affect the price of an item. If I remember correctly, Firelocks are gated behind a quest, so it's possible that they are underbotted. It also means that when those bots are banned it takes longer for new bots to replace them. So an increase in GM activity or an improvement in anti-bot measures can cause a sudden price jump.

 

One odd cause of a major price jump is when suppliers undervalue their items. Suppliers may sell an item at the accepted "average" many times before someone attempts to sell theirs for more with a happy result. It seems to happen with items that are in low supply because then Ragial doesn't have a lot of data on it. People tend to copy their pricing from whatever average Ragial displays, but a closer look might show that the average is calculated from only 5 or 6 instances of the item. That seems to be the case with Firelock Card. There are only 4-5 cards vending per day. Compare that to Raydric's average 10 per day. A small sample size needs to be treated differently. I wouldn't take it for granted that 5 other people trying to sell Firelock Card have attempted to overprice it and failed. In that case it's better to overprice it myself so that I can know for sure that I'm not undervaluing my item. If it fails I can always lower it. It's an experiment that costs nothing but time to perform, but if you aren't in a hurry to sell your item then that's okay. When no other forces are present, time increases the value of items because of inflation. (That's why liquidating your wealth in a "quitting sale" is a bad idea. Before you take a break, stock up on items that retain value past updates, like Ray cards. Then your wealth with grow at the rate of inflation and retain the same buying power that you had before you quit.)

 

The average for Nov 8 was 8.1m

 

Nov 9 was 7.9m

 

So it seemed to be steady or perhaps going down. One thing that can cause people to overprice an item is a lack of competition. If I look at ragial and see that I'm the only one vending a certain item today, I might overprice it because I know the buyer doesn't have an alternative. When given the choice to pay a little more, hunt their own, or wait another day, people will often pay more to have it sooner.

 

Nov 10 has a sudden jump to 14.6m average. So what happened between Nov 9 and 10? This Blacksmith called B*** (supposed to censor names) probably saw a lack of competition and attempted to overprice his card. The next person may have seen a lack a competition too and simply undercut B*** at 13m. The higher price is validated every time someone buys it. Because of B***'s first experiment, suppliers found a new value for Firelock Card. Keep in mind that buyers are not victims here. Nobody forces a buyer to buy anything. If this new value of 14m is not worth it, then nobody will buy it. The fact that people do buy it validates the higher price. We can only say that for certain because we know that every individual buyer has the freedom to go hunt their own Firelock Card if they thought the price wasn't worth it. The worth of an item is simply what the buyer is willing to pay compared against what the seller is willing to accept. The worth of an item is different to every individual and every individual transaction.

 

Ragial doesn't reflect an item's worth, it only displays data that may or may not help us determine what it is worth to ourselves. So guys please don't misuse the data and then blame the robot that collected the data. Damn I went on a hell of a tangent.

Edited by Seasmoke, 14 November 2017 - 08:55 AM.

[Navy]

I haven't been to Amatsu dungeon so I won't pretend to know what's going on with that one. I can only speculate.

 

Stuff

 

 

Amatsu is very heavily botted, but they seem to get caught a lot. As far as Ragial for supply and demand, again wrong. If you look at the actual vend history of people, you can see that some vendor previously tried to sell them for cheaper.

 

Firelock was just one example, if you want more look at orc baby, penomena. Overnight increase by 3-4 and 10x fold.

 

There is a clear zeny overload issue if people actually buy for those price.

[Seasmoke]

Glad to hear they're getting caught. I'm looking at the same list. Which vendor are you talking about? It looks like a sudden jump on Nov 10 and then a rapid but linear rise to the present.

 

Look at something like Bathory Card that has remained in the 5m range throughout the supposed zeny overload period. Since zeny can be used to buy anything supplied, zeny inflation acts on all items equally except items that come from an NPC. So unless we can think of a downward actor on Bathory that stopped it from doubling and tripling in price like these other items, then inflation isn't the cause for those prices double and tripling. More likely, supply for those specific items has shrunk or demand for them has grown.

 

Demand for Orc Baby has increased because of Amistr Bags. Demand for Penomena has increased because of the Juperos, KH and LH announcement. Firelock is still a mystery to me but perhaps someone with more insight can shed some light on why it tripled from Nov 9 to 11.

Edited by Seasmoke, 14 November 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[hansibaer]

complain for inflation and ask for bots. omfg. there is no limit in stupidness. PLEASE turn off your pc and go to school...

[iamSMOKIE]

I have a theory on why prices are going up. I believe rich bot users or rich market geniuses are buying up everything on the market that people need and selling it for 3x or 4x as much.

[Panteperu]

Most likely its zenny buyers feeding the hype and paying whatever price for equips and silvervine since they can buy "cheap zenny"

I wonder how far are we, before silvervine price reaches 10m

[3760131101140636877]

Just enjoy the game, and wait it close

[DisposableHero]

I have a theory on why prices are going up. I believe rich bot users or rich market geniuses are buying up everything on the market that people need and selling it for 3x or 4x as much.

 

You are aware this happens regularly, right?

[Coderie]

I have a theory on why prices are going up. I believe rich bot users or rich market geniuses are buying up everything on the market that people need and selling it for 3x or 4x as much.

To be honest you don’t need to be a genius to figure this out. If someone undercuts the market of course you should buy it and profit with your patience.

[Bazzz]

as someone who played loki iris valk ymir and classic this is not crazy, this is exactly what happens on iRO servers every single time. Look at 100kp for 20m or w/e it is on renewal when we pass that then you can call it crazy. 

[RealGarion]

as someone who played loki iris valk ymir and classic this is not crazy, this is exactly what happens on iRO servers every single time. Look at 100kp for 20m or w/e it is on renewal when we pass that then you can call it crazy. 

Its bound to happen here aswell ,will take some time though.

 

We could as a player base try to establish a reserve/alternative currency to zeny ... ... but thats pretty much a monster internal community project... 

 

 

Edit: Silvervine could have been a reserve currency and has some of the crucial steps already taken to be just that, but some essential parts are sadly missing

Edited by RealGarion, 16 November 2017 - 09:01 AM.