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#26 RunningWild

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 12:28 AM

Classic RO w/ some of the newer Renewal balances to 1st/2nd classes would be fun.

 

Mainly I just want a functional Bowling Bash and Back Stab!


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#27 ragnadood2003

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 04:41 AM

3rd classes ruined renewal. Trans was already excessive, 3rd was the nail in the coffin. The game was better when you could get to 99 in a reasonable amount of time, and then worry about getting your end-game gear. PvP, WoE and the game in general died because your character is no longer relevant until you've gone through novice, first class, second class, trans class, third class, and then reached 170. It's a ludicrous grind and it turns many people off because the idea that you'll need to spend hundreds or thousands of hours playing the game just to compete in PvP or WoE is disheartening. What we needed was more class branches, not just higher tiers for existing classs. The worst part is that 3rd classes aren't even fun -- most of them look stupid and all of them play nearly identically because they all just spam overpowered AoE spells.

 

It's a classic story of too much being a bad thing. Existing mechanics should have been refined, bugs and typos should have been hammered out, more new monsters and regions should have been introduced, rather than just tacking on poorly-designed classes and overpowered cash shop items. People remember classic so fondly because simpler is almost always better.


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#28 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 04:53 AM

yo i respectfully disagree with your view point. The game might have completely faded away 10 years ago without 3rd class. New things promote people to play the game while progression is always part of MMORPG. Look at how diablo just rehash contents so you keep repeating the stages just on higher difficulty and how many people still play the game.

 

The thing is with how game content was delivered and run, not the concept of 3rd classes. Getting higher classes is completely necessary as part of new gameplay progression (or a breath of freshness in the same game) unless you want the game to pass on and people to move on to RO2, then RO3 or something. Sadly that path has sailed long ago- Gravity made so many attempts at RO successors that just completely flop and lost money, while RO1 remained its slow and steady cash cow.

 

 


Edited by blackCROSSCY, 06 September 2019 - 04:59 AM.

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#29 ragnadood2003

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 04:59 AM

yo i respectful disagree with your view point. The game might have completely faded away 10 years ago without 3rd class. NEW things promote people to play the game. Progression is always part of MMORPG. Look at how diablo just rehash contents so you keep repeating the stages just on higher difficulty and how many people still play the game.

 

The thing is with how game balance was run, not the concept of 3rd classes. Getting higher classes is completely necessary as part of new gameplay progression (or a breath of freshness in the same game) unless you want the game to pass on and people to move on to RO2, then RO3 or something. Sadly that path has sailed long ago- Gravity made so many attempts at RO successors that just completely flop and lost money, while RO1 remained its slow and steady cash cow.

Progression is definitely an integral part of any MMO, but the question is, does implementing more tiers for existing classes really improve the game? Would 4th, 5th, 6th classes make the game better just because they add "progression"? You need to stop somewhere, and having to work through five tiers of classes and hundreds of levels just for one character just feels like way too much. To me, leveling should be a means to an end, rather than a continuous goal. I'd like to progress by getting better and better gear and continually better versions of that gear. That's meaningful progression, but I don't think muddying the waters with more class tiers is. More classes (as in, branches for swordsman, mage, etc. or new 1st class branches entirely) would be awesome, but there needs to be a definable endpoint or you are never going to have a strong PvP community.


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#30 YangeWenli

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 05:05 AM

Progression is definitely an integral part of any MMO, but the question is, does implementing more tiers for existing classes really improve the game? Would 4th, 5th, 6th classes make the game better just because they add "progression"? You need to stop somewhere, and having to work through five tiers of classes and hundreds of levels just for one character just feels like way too much. To me, leveling should be a means to an end, rather than a continuous goal. I'd like to progress by getting better and better gear and continually better versions of that gear. That's meaningful progression, but I don't think muddying the waters with more class tiers is. More classes (as in, branches for swordsman, mage, etc. or new 1st class branches entirely) would be awesome, but there needs to be a definable endpoint or you are never going to have a strong PvP community.

 

This game so easy to lvl man can actually just leech gramps and bounty board to 175  in under a month without knowing how to play your char or any game mechanic  :heh: . Earning zeny Isn't as ez tho like in mobile ro  noob can ez farm zeny but here as newbie even with knowledge you wont have a good time.


Edited by YangeWenli, 06 September 2019 - 05:06 AM.

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#31 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 05:17 AM

Progression is definitely an integral part of any MMO, but the question is, does implementing more tiers for existing classes really improve the game? Would 4th, 5th, 6th classes make the game better just because they add "progression"? You need to stop somewhere, and having to work through five tiers of classes and hundreds of levels just for one character just feels like way too much. To me, leveling should be a means to an end, rather than a continuous goal. I'd like to progress by getting better and better gear and continually better versions of that gear. That's meaningful progression, but I don't think muddying the waters with more class tiers is. More classes (as in, branches for swordsman, mage, etc. or new 1st class branches entirely) would be awesome, but there needs to be a definable endpoint or you are never going to have a strong PvP community.

 

Dude we are only at 3 class progression, which is by no means a lot. Unless we're talking about a different game like [Removed]

 

When third class were first implement, there were a lot of people who were really excited about it and went back to play the game (I was one of them). It was definitely not a wrong decision. People just left when they realised how crappy the new system and class balance were delivered. Nothing to do with third classes. Remember, many people went back specifically for the third classes.


Edited by VModCinnamon, 06 September 2019 - 05:44 AM.
Mod Edit: Please do not attempt to bypass filter again.

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#32 ragnadood2003

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 06:50 AM

Dude we are only at 3 class progression, which is by no means a lot. Unless we're talking about a different game like [Removed]

 

When third class were first implement, there were a lot of people who were really excited about it and went back to play the game (I was one of them). It was definitely not a wrong decision. People just left when they realised how crappy the new system and class balance were delivered. Nothing to do with third classes. Remember, many people went back specifically for the third classes.

Sorry, I just don't buy that. I'm sure many people did return for the 3rd classes, but sometimes you get what you wish for. 3rd classes, objectively, killed PvP. Think about it, in the old days you could have some level 80 2-1/2-2 class, and with the right gear you could be holding your own in PvP within a few days/weeks of joining the game if you knew what you were doing. Try doing that now. Unless you pay your way, you are going to spend weeks, months or years getting to the point where you can go into PvP or WoE and actually compete, because 3rd classes are ridiculously overpowered and have a much higher level cap. The end game should be achieving incremental improvements to gear, not endless level grinding. They also stripped the game of variety: there was a time when you could make crazy builds like an int rogue that used fireblend and copied abilities to be an effective magic user. Try making funky builds like that now. Everything has been filtered in a small meta pool where the same items, same builds and same skills are the only thing that is relevant in any setting, and that's what killed the community. 


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#33 blackCROSSCY

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 06:57 AM

To each his own, i just point out why i don’t agree with you and that’s that. Nothing we talk about really changes anything that unless you wanna buy gravity out for 90M USD :)
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#34 Sigma1

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 07:47 AM

Actually around $95m (51% shareholder) lol.
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#35 Ashuckel

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 08:01 AM

Sorry, I just don't buy that. I'm sure many people did return for the 3rd classes, but sometimes you get what you wish for. 3rd classes, objectively, killed PvP. Think about it, in the old days you could have some level 80 2-1/2-2 class, and with the right gear you could be holding your own in PvP within a few days/weeks of joining the game if you knew what you were doing. Try doing that now. Unless you pay your way, you are going to spend weeks, months or years getting to the point where you can go into PvP or WoE and actually compete, because 3rd classes are ridiculously overpowered and have a much higher level cap. The end game should be achieving incremental improvements to gear, not endless level grinding. They also stripped the game of variety: there was a time when you could make crazy builds like an int rogue that used fireblend and copied abilities to be an effective magic user. Try making funky builds like that now. Everything has been filtered in a small meta pool where the same items, same builds and same skills are the only thing that is relevant in any setting, and that's what killed the community. 


You realize that every problem you pointed out stems from the abusive cash shop power creep Gravity has been putting into the game since then, not actually the classes themselves.


As i said previously
 


A large portion of the "renewal is trash i don't like it" comes from the game's damage calculation changing and a lot of ppls gears turing obsolete. The game formulas themselves weren't the problem, the skills and class design werent the problem, it's where they went from there, pushing cash shop power creep harder and harder as the time went on. Even if the game had retained the pre-renewal mechanics, they could have replicated that -_-show regardless.

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#36 Scuba

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 09:39 AM

3rd classes ruined renewal. Trans was already excessive, 3rd was the nail in the coffin. The game was better when you could get to 99 in a reasonable amount of time, and then worry about getting your end-game gear. PvP, WoE and the game in general died because your character is no longer relevant until you've gone through novice, first class, second class, trans class, third class, and then reached 170. It's a ludicrous grind and it turns many people off because the idea that you'll need to spend hundreds or thousands of hours playing the game just to compete in PvP or WoE is disheartening. What we needed was more class branches, not just higher tiers for existing classs. The worst part is that 3rd classes aren't even fun -- most of them look stupid and all of them play nearly identically because they all just spam overpowered AoE spells.

 

It's a classic story of too much being a bad thing. Existing mechanics should have been refined, bugs and typos should have been hammered out, more new monsters and regions should have been introduced, rather than just tacking on poorly-designed classes and overpowered cash shop items. People remember classic so fondly because simpler is almost always better.

 

Yeah I pretty much agree with this.

 

Seems like a lot to ask someone to level 1-99 as a "warm up" then transcend and 1-99 again. Then tack on 75 more levels after that before you can do anything. While it might not legitimately be as difficult to level in renewal, the proposition does not look good on paper. Once you've done it and realize its not as hard as it looks its super easy to just churn out  175s.

 

The worst things renewal added were the level range penalty, stat point change (basically stats don't matter as long as you hit the breakpoints dictated by your equips), and status effect level difference buff. I'm not a big fan of the damage formula changes either but they are much less of a big deal to me.

 

The best things renewal added were the instanced bosses (Classic only  had a sealed shrine and Nidhoggur I think), and more build flexibility.

 

Classic's Novice training ground was much more effective at explaining how the game worked and setting noobs up for success compared to the izlude academy. The training grounds were much more compact, you were less likely to miss anything important, and if you knew what you were doing you could bypass most of it quickly and come out ready to class up on your new character. Renewal just feels a bit more nagging than classic did, maybe its more streamlined but it feels annoying to me personally. Id rather they fix the leveling and experience issues than compensate for it by adding bounties and TI dailies. Sure you can level without bounty boards or TI's but you're much worse off by doing so.

 

I still play renewal quite a lot though because I enjoy the level of customization I have over my character and I already have a lot of game knowledge so its not worth switching to something else for me. Its unfortunate that renewal couldn't have been handled better. But my version of better and other's version of better are always going to be different. So at the end of the day its just better to play the game for what it is.


Edited by Scuba, 06 September 2019 - 09:50 AM.

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#37 nyyaan

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 11:47 AM

3rd classes didnt ruin the game. OCPs didnt ruin the game. iRO is never P2W because there is a trade system and players can farm zeny to buy OCPs. Play RoM to experience what a real P2W is like.

 

Slow update ruins the game for PvM players. No WoE ruined the game for WoE players. Both is due to Warpportal/Gravity bad management. To make it worse, some players have some weird mentality like ... They cant win in WoE, so they just cheat because they cant get good through practicing in WoE. Their main gets nerf'ed, so they just rage quit because they're too noob to find a new way to play their nerf'ed class. They spend thousands of dollar on refinement and still failed, so they just rage quit because they couldnt control their spending. List goes on.

 

RO game in general is a good game. Cant really compare Classic and Renewal. They both have its pros and cons. It's just no updates and players weird mentality that has brought the game to what it is. Gravity doesnt care too. iRO is a very easy F2P game and it generates so little revenue compared to real P2W game like RoM.

 

Also, congrats to all the remaining in-game active iRO players. You guys have proven to be the winners. iRO is like a game of survival. It only gets harder and harder as it enters its 17th year. Only the best who can adapt to changes gets to stay so long and noobs like me who cant adapt to changes lose and get removed from the game ie. rage quit  :heh:


Edited by nyyaan, 06 September 2019 - 11:56 AM.

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#38 JittersSnowpaw

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 02:20 PM

Whatever. lmao


Edited by JittersSnowpaw, 06 September 2019 - 02:40 PM.

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#39 junioran

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 03:03 PM

renewal is cooler


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#40 ragnadood2003

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 08:37 PM

You realize that every problem you pointed out stems from the abusive cash shop power creep Gravity has been putting into the game since then, not actually the classes themselves.

 

No, not every problem stems from that. 3rd classes are fundamentally flawed. 3rd classes introduced skills that vastly overpower any 1st/2nd/trans class skills, rendering them pointless and significantly reducing the variety of builds a player can make and still remain relevant in PvE and PvP. 3rd classes were designed to let you solo MVPs and thus have a ton of heavy hitting and/or AoE skills that negate the need to use anything except those skills. Combine this with the cash shop items you mentioned, and you have a recipe for disaster. There are many factors that went into what killed the game, but by every objective measure, 3rd classes added more negativity to the game than positivity. As I said earlier, we should have had more branches for 2nd/trans classes and more balanced items with unique abilities, rather than simply adding higher and higher tiers for existing classes and selling items that make every older item irrelevant. That's what killed the game. 


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#41 Scuba

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 03:44 AM

^I've actually talked about this in depth.

 

Just my thoughts on the class progression system and how renewal could have been tailored to fix the things that were wrong with the pre-renewal / transcendent era, instead of going the route they did. The opinion seems to not be as popular as you'd think. Video was not what I would call "well received". As I said before its mostly just my ideas on how I wish things were, which differ from everyone else. Everyone has their own version of a perfect RO. The reality is none of us will ever get our perfect game so appreciate what we have.

 

Spoiler

 

tl;dw: Leveling process should have been put in a transcendent exp curve from the beginning from 1-99. Once job 50 you would do another job change quest to become either transcendent or 3rd class. Skills would have to be shuffled around so that classes have a clear "identity". This works out much better than you might expect. For example, if you were an 85/50 assassin you would become either Sinx or GX. Sinx's identity is the poison tree, GX is the blade tree. This would allow players to experiment with what play-style they like within a class before they full commit to it for the last 15-20 levels of the game. I always had a problem pre-transcendent hitting job 50 then being bored out of my mind the rest of the time, because you don't get to make any more choices. This solution would remedy that and cut out the tedium of rebirthing.


Edited by Scuba, 07 September 2019 - 04:23 AM.

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#42 yssupymaerc

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 04:29 AM

Dude that was an interesting video. Do you maybe have some ideas for a new game using RO engine? i was hoping that instead of updating RO they would make another game with different story, maps, monsters, and class progression but still use the same RO engine and mechanics, maybe with some enhancement and balancing, just keep the 2d in 3d graphic and game control. I'd totally play that even if it's PS.


Edited by yssupymaerc, 07 September 2019 - 04:31 AM.

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#43 mikkotinamide

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 08:36 AM

 People remember classic so fondly because simpler is almost always better. nostalgia. 

Classic's clunkiness and [Removed] mechanics would not even be good enough for a game released in 2005.


Edited by VModCinnamon, 07 September 2019 - 10:59 AM.
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#44 Scuba

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 08:49 AM

Dude that was an interesting video. Do you maybe have some ideas for a new game using RO engine? i was hoping that instead of updating RO they would make another game with different story, maps, monsters, and class progression but still use the same RO engine and mechanics, maybe with some enhancement and balancing, just keep the 2d in 3d graphic and game control. I'd totally play that even if it's PS.

 

I wouldn't know the first thing about how to make that happen. I mean if I was the lead developer and could tell other people what to do all the time and they'd just do it I have tons of thoughts. Wanted to stay away from PS discussion and stick to the core concept of class restructuring. If gravity or someone else wants to run with it I'd 100% play it. The idea is free. Easier said than done I'm sure. I think the story, maps and the monsters RO has are great, I just think they have really bad numbers and illogical progression.

 

When you break the game down to its core, its your numbers vs their numbers. So the only true difference between classes is how they apply those numbers differently. Is it damage over time, does the damage scale, is it AoE, is it single target, does it apply a consequential status effect, is it increased by card %, is it reducible, what stat numbers does it scale with, etc.? The way the characters distribute these numerical levers is what gives them a unique feel. So as long as a class is applying numbers in a unique way it can resonate with different types of people's preferences better. Instead of homogenizing it.


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#45 ragnadood2003

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:43 AM

Classic's clunkiness and [Removed] mechanics would not even be good enough for a game released in 2005.

Do you have an actual argument? Writing off any criticism of modern things as "nostalgia" is a bad argument and always has been. People prefer classic because it wasn't bloated with garbage features and retarded design decisions. People prefer classic because:

 

- it had a better economy with less inflated prices

- a better experience/leveling system that allowed you to hunt where and how you wanted to

- more balanced classes with a greater variety of relevant builds

- less bloated item roster with fewer pointless and repetitive items

- no overpowered cash shop items

- no 3rd classes making every subsequent class/older skill irrelevant

- a better UI (for example, why did they need to remove job exp% display?)

- renewal completely -_- up monster stats and item drops (a Coco is almost as powerful as an Orc warrior LOL)

- renewal messed up monster distribution or removed monsters entirely (no more high orcs in west orc village? no more thara frogs in byalan? wtf)

- renewal destroyed any chance of a good PvP/WoE community due to the pay2win format and ridiculous necessity of grinding to 170/3rd class

- renewal added needless things like beyond +10 upgrades just for the sake of progression, at the cost of balance

- renewal made MVPs and (all hunting areas in general) solo-able, killing any need to interact with other players or party

- renewal streamlined mechanics that hurt immersion and fun ("channels" for new players in pront/izlude, DBs being limited on many maps, etc.)

 

… on and on and on. If you think people only like older things because of nostalgia, maybe you're the one with nostalgia for the -_- show known as renewal. Outside of a few quality of life improvements and some new content, renewal is, by every objective measure, a worse game than classic. Sorry, but you're wrong. 


Edited by VModCinnamon, 07 September 2019 - 11:00 AM.
Mod Edit: edited in quote.

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#46 Demun

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:24 AM

Do classic tards also play using dial-up modems, pentium 4 and on windows xp?

 

That is an oddly specific ... a recollction perhaps?

 

And Yes Being a classic tard i did play it then on that machine , when it was actually classic 


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#47 yssupymaerc

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 12:14 PM

your 2nd sentence is what i was wondering. it will be an interesting topic for discussion/video to talk about creating your own world using RO engine. I don't dislike RO's story now. But i wonder what if gravity gives us an opensource world edit like in warcraft 3. i really liked playing random custom rpg maps in wc3. i'm curious to see what people will come up with opensource aegis. i'm sure gravity could have made a profit out of that somehow. Also considering how popular moba genre has been the past 5+ years, i've wishfully waited for gravity to make their own moba with RO graphic and mechanics lol.

 

anyway i completely agree with you. i never thought of that but what you said makes sense to me. I'm personally fine with the current progression of the game except for the OP cashshop that completely replaces most of the actual content equipment. But your version of class and level progression would have been better and logical. Branching within the same tier (1 -> 2-1 -> 3-1,3-2) instead of going higher (2-1 -> 3-1 (rebirth) -> 4-1 (3rd class)). They can even introduce 2-3 classes. They'll eventually have to increase the level cap but they can do it gradually (1~5 levels at a time) and just introduce new skills instead of a whole new class tier. And with monsters they could have played around more with the AI instead of mostly increasing level, mhp, and damage.


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#48 funny4life

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 05:28 PM

Clearly everyone wants classic to come back. 


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#49 Scuba

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 05:53 PM

To be clear, thats not what I'm saying. While its fun to think about, reality matters too. Classic was a dead-end. We don't get any patches for renewal, and its hard to imagine a world where a progression / revamped Classic server would ever work out. Like we can talk circles all day about how this or that would have been better. But its over and done with. Even if classic was objectively better in every way, Gravity parent company is committed to ignoring iRO and pivoting to mobile. Their entry into the mobile space has been their number 1 priority on their annual report for years now. The support for such a thing is long gone.


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#50 mikkotinamide

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 07:22 PM

- it had a better economy with less inflated prices

Lol. It didn't. Economy had gone bad even before pre-renewal. Inflation is almost always inevitable without a total overhaul of monetization and itemization.

 

- a better experience/leveling system that allowed you to hunt where and how you wanted to

Leveling weeks to months just for a single level? Lol

 

- more balanced classes with a greater variety of relevant builds
There were more useless classes and redudnant skills back then. 

 

- less bloated item roster with fewer pointless and repetitive items

Alexa, what is power creep

 

- no overpowered cash shop items

Again, this is a problem of monetization. RO going f2p was poorly planned and implemented. 

 

- no 3rd classes making every subsequent class/older skill irrelevant

Tons of 2nd job classes has always been irrelevant even before renewal. 

 

- a better UI (for example, why did they need to remove job exp% display?)

Seriously, are you sure you're still talking about RO? 

 

- renewal completely -_- up monster stats and item drops (a Coco is almost as powerful as an Orc warrior LOL)

item drops has always been bad.

 

- renewal messed up monster distribution or removed monsters entirely (no more high orcs in west orc village? no more thara frogs in byalan? wtf)

Err pretty sure a lot of monster relocation were pre renewal. And why is this even a bad thing. At this point, I'm inclined to think you're talking about early 2000s classic RO and you've missed some pre-renewal changes. 

 

- renewal destroyed any chance of a good PvP/WoE community due to the pay2win format and ridiculous necessity of grinding to 170/3rd class

It has always been pay2win ever since they made it f2p. Renewal didn't cause it. Granted, it magnified it.

 

- renewal added needless things like beyond +10 upgrades just for the sake of progression, at the cost of balance

+10 upgrades were just as overpowered back then because different defense mechanics. 

 

- renewal made MVPs and (all hunting areas in general) solo-able, killing any need to interact with other players or party

Agree but it was only because of lack of content as is the case in most flaws in renewal - slow and limited content over the years made this possible. 

 

- renewal streamlined mechanics that hurt immersion and fun ("channels" for new players in pront/izlude, DBs being limited on many maps, etc.)

Why is this a bad thing? It could have been handled better but DB was being abused for newer players. Although it was pointless since there arent many new players, lol. 

 

… on and on and on. If you think people only like older things because of nostalgia, maybe you're the one with nostalgia for the -_- show known as renewal. Outside of a few quality of life improvements and some new content, renewal is, by every objective measure, a worse game than classic. Sorry, but you're wrong. 

Have you been living under a rock? The gaming industry is thriving off of nostalgia - remasters and remakes left and right. 

 

Almost half of your arguments are just disguised back-in-my-day rants, nothing more. 

 

Renewal is far from perfect but why would you want to have a game with zero updates with mechanics conceived decades ago? RO was never good as you make it out to be. Hence, nostalgia. 

Serious question, do you also use windows xp and pentium 4 because windows 10 is bad and newer hardware made everything worse? 


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