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#76 Soda

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 09:51 AM

I want to add that you keep saying you don't care about PvP, YET YOU KEEP REPLYING AND REPLYING!

I was gonna point that out, glad i dont have to type all that ;p

Example: a raider may beat a champ or bourg 1v1 depending on luck of stuns and timing of pots. But in war, a group of aoe`ing champs or bourgs with their aoe stuns and grenades would have the upper hand vs a group of raiders.

Exactly, Its ridiculous how someone can even complain about raiders, when in fact a group of champs that aoes can pretty much take 4-10 ppl while tanking.(w/cleric healing plus pots)

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#77 Dusk1PS

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 10:13 AM

exactly. for someone who constantly says he doesn't care about pvp, he tends to find his way through all these balancing threads. Just Sayin'

But on topic with the nades. from my own experience of actually playing the class (arti to be exact). I think there should be maybe a longer cooldown. I've used only concussion grenades and I can stun lock people quite easily.

In my opinion, Although a class may not be the best head on 1v1. I think we should look at things on a war perspective. Example: a raider may beat a champ or bourg 1v1 depending on luck of stuns and timing of pots. But in war, a group of aoe`ing champs or bourgs with their aoe stuns and grenades would have the upper hand vs a group of raiders.

So I think the only change would be give it a lil longer cooldown.


While I understand what you are saying about the war perspective. That is a fictional simulation because you assume there would be even amount of champs, bourgs and raiders. I'm sure you know as well as I do. The sides are hardly ever even nor are fights ever even.

I pose a question for you, yes you can stun lock with your artisan. But if you ever tried bringing him into a war and fighting with it, you will find yourself having to stick to a group or you'll get picked off as sure as you breathe air. And will probably require a nade to escape your persurer if you even want a chance of surviving.

Sure you can stun lock the heck out of someone if you get the jump on them. Try running to the other side by yourself like a Raider would, you'll find you won't last long enough to even throw a grenade.
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#78 Soda

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 10:27 AM

While I understand what you are saying about the war perspective. That is a fictional simulation because you assume there would be even amount of champs, bourgs and raiders. I'm sure you know as well as I do. The sides are hardly ever even nor are fights ever even.

I pose a question for you, yes you can stun lock with your artisan. But if you ever tried bringing him into a war and fighting with it, you will find yourself having to stick to a group or you'll get picked off as sure as you breathe air. And will probably require a nade to escape your persurer if you even want a chance of surviving.

Sure you can stun lock the heck out of someone if you get the jump on them. Try running to the other side by yourself like a Raider would, you'll find you won't last long enough to even throw a grenade.

You know that artisans have aoe sleep right? So a grenade wud just be a back up for escaping.
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#79 Dusk1PS

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 10:29 AM

You know that artisans have aoe sleep right? So a grenade wud just be a back up for escaping.


Of course I do. Check my previous posts on this thread, I mentioned it several times.

More than likely, it'll end up failing and you require the grenade anyways.
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#80 tENLAVUU

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 10:59 AM

While I understand what you are saying about the war perspective. That is a fictional simulation because you assume there would be even amount of champs, bourgs and raiders. I'm sure you know as well as I do. The sides are hardly ever even nor are fights ever even.

I pose a question for you, yes you can stun lock with your artisan. But if you ever tried bringing him into a war and fighting with it, you will find yourself having to stick to a group or you'll get picked off as sure as you breathe air. And will probably require a nade to escape your persurer if you even want a chance of surviving.

Sure you can stun lock the heck out of someone if you get the jump on them. Try running to the other side by yourself like a Raider would, you'll find you won't last long enough to even throw a grenade.


actually to answer your question yes I've been to UW with my arti. I do pretty well on it. 47 proofs on one of the recent wars and he's not even fully geared. of course i understand in stacked wars you can't do much but that's a given. but on topic, the "weak bourg/arti" class isn't as dramatic as people make them out to be. I still think they are fun and do well in war and this is saying from personal experience in wars from both perspective; the one who gets grenaded and the arti himself.

Edited by tENLAVUU, 01 February 2011 - 11:07 AM.

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#81 Dusk1PS

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 11:17 AM

actually to answer your question yes I've been to UW with my arti. I do pretty well on it. 47 proofs on one of the recent wars and he's not even fully geared. of course i understand in stacked wars you can't do much but that's a given. but on topic, the "weak bourg/arti" class isn't as dramatic as people make them out to be. I still think they are fun and do well in war and this is saying from personal experience in wars from both perspective; the one who gets grenaded and the arti himself.


ps: leave artisans out, they are not a pvp class.


I guess you just proved Gojio wrong lol. 47 proofs in a war, I never could acheive that in a million years.

I never meant it was a giant gap of difference but you have to admit, we do get the short end of the stick compared to most classes and one of our only advantages we get, people want to nerf it. Sounds familiar with your Stealth/Cloak scenerio for Raiders or Mspd/Atk Pwr for Champs right? Except, we kind of deserve it for the money and work we put into crafting and lack thereof of combative ability.

Yes, your Arti is amazing. I highly doubt many can even keep up with that level of play. I couldn't even imagine it. That is probably why you are considered one of the better players of the game.

But, as Jagz has said, Fair is fair. If they nerf the grenade, others should equally be levelled off or we're just fodder. And it is no fun to be the fodder.
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#82 Gojio

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 11:24 AM

But, as Jagz has said, Fair is fair. If they nerf the grenade, others should equally be levelled off or we're just fodder. And it is no fun to be the fodder.


Or your skills should be improved and be balanced with others.
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#83 tENLAVUU

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 11:35 AM

But, as Jagz has said, Fair is fair. If they nerf the grenade, others should equally be levelled off or we're just fodder. And it is no fun to be the fodder.


Oh I agree on that 100%. You saw how many pages the champ thread got? xD anyways I just think they should open pegasus and let people voice their opinions directly to the GM like they did when ORLO first came out.
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#84 Santa1K

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 12:15 PM

But honestly I read some being surprised cause they were ganged by 3 bourgs, but try vs 3 of any class and you might find out that you get stunned all the time too.


I've tried 1v3 champs, they can hardly stun lock me i can get away pretty easily, but there are occasions when all their stuns hit.
I've tried 1v3 raiders, they cant stun lock me at all
I've tried 1v3 mages, they do stunlock sometimes, depending on their skill set(some have like 4 stuns including cleric stun) then u get debuffed, then thats the end of it.

Against all those i was still able to pot/eat food.

But against bourgs, I get decloaked then i cant even move/pot.
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#85 Metaleux

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:03 PM

I've tried 1v3 champs, they can hardly stun lock me i can get away pretty easily, but there are occasions when all their stuns hit.
I've tried 1v3 raiders, they cant stun lock me at all
I've tried 1v3 mages, they do stunlock sometimes, depending on their skill set(some have like 4 stuns including cleric stun) then u get debuffed, then thats the end of it.

Against all those i was still able to pot/eat food.

But against bourgs, I get decloaked then i cant even move/pot.


Well obviously I ment people who have an experienced gameplay. Same goes for bourgs, I am sure you can get out of it if they are not experienced players.
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#86 TankJr

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 01:25 PM

indeed,
compared to a scout a bourg is in every stat better (or nearly as good as) a scout

AND they got the nades

thats totally imbalanced!!!


as albe said: give any other class 100% stue pots, too or delete the nades for the bourgs
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#87 Phish

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:25 PM

Nerf grenades and nothing more: No
Nerf grenades and improve other dealer skills/while balancing other classes: Yes


I'd just like to point another thing out. All classes have some some sort of defense ort survivabilty.

Champs: High defense, High Hp, High mspeed, Strong offense (debuffs etc.) part of what makes them overpowered
Knights: Higher Defense/block rate, High HP, decent mspeed, range (for crossbows)

Cleric: Heals, magic defense/block rate, decent defense
Mage: Offense (debuffs, mute etc.)(although they are a bit lacking here because of how slow many skills are)

Raider: High dodge, decent mspeed, Cloak/Stealth (Katars), Higher dodge/defense (Duals),
Scout: High dodge, decent mspeed, range, stealth

Bourgs: Range, Good stuns (their survivability is reducing their opponents ability to attack them)
Artisan: Range Good stuns/sleep (slightly higher mspeed and hp than bourgs)




Take away the stuns, and they don't have much to survive off of. Not saying the grendaes shouldn't be balanced, but it is some food for thought.

Edited by Phish, 01 February 2011 - 02:33 PM.

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#88 Gojio

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 02:38 PM

Nerf grenades and nothing more: No
Nerf grenades and improve other dealer skills/while balancing other classes: Yes


I've shared this thought in many posts...
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#89 jagz

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:22 PM

47 my ass. I've been in every war since the night you got on your arti to try to make them look better than they are or something.

& When you run out of explosives, Have fun crafting more.

Manufacturers cost is going to be about 20 mill for a stack. :D
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#90 tENLAVUU

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:37 PM

47 my ass. I've been in every war since the night you got on your arti to try to make them look better than they are or something.

& When you run out of explosives, Have fun crafting more.

Manufacturers cost is going to be about 20 mill for a stack. :D




Posted Image

lol but anyways um yeah all i said was to give it a slightly longer cooldown. don't get all defensive about it lmao. i'm not great at arti but i still manage to get at least 20 proofs even in crappy wars or close to it.

Edited by tENLAVUU, 01 February 2011 - 04:43 PM.

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#91 jagz

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:44 PM

I assumed it was during one of those massively outnumbed JO losses, sorry. Not bad.

I do want you to go fight Phish or something, or even a mage like jstn, or a knight like sparkle, a raider like, well any of you raiders, and see how it goes, though.

I correctly predicted I would lose 50% to 0% versus Spazzy. Nades and all. Also that one time I beat your raider probably the only time i'd ever, as the 35% stun worked multiple times, and I still only had a couple % left.

- I do wish I could see the "Gotten" list of that war for you :D . It would be cool if they kept statistics on wars and stuff.

Edited by jagz, 01 February 2011 - 04:45 PM.

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#92 tENLAVUU

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:46 PM

you talked like you've never killed my raider in uw before or as if i rarely die.. common now. haha and i don't think i can even beat bryan on even my raider ;p and yes statistics wud be pretty cool.

Edited by tENLAVUU, 01 February 2011 - 04:50 PM.

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#93 Phish

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:47 PM

- I do wish I could see the "Gotten" list of that war for you :D . It would be cool if they kept statistics on wars and stuff.



I think you're on to something good...

Edited by Phish, 01 February 2011 - 04:47 PM.

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#94 tENLAVUU

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:53 PM

bottom line is people "exaggerate" way too much. in my opinion the nerfs are fairly easy to do. simple things like for bourgs, increase cd on grenades a tiny bit. for raiders their main dmg is the burn which does 4k (which i can understand may be too much) so i can see maybe put a longer cd on that too so it doesn't cast back to back. for champ, they do tons of dmg over time, maybe give them less debuffs they can do. stop thinking that everyone is out to get you or put your class down. im open minded about nerfs on any class even the class i like playing.

Edited by tENLAVUU, 01 February 2011 - 05:06 PM.

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#95 jagz

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:10 PM

you talked like you've never killed my raider in uw before or as if i rarely die.. common now. haha and i don't think i can even beat bryan on even my raider ;p and yes statistics wud be pretty cool.

I specificly said pvp but, yea i've killed raiders in UW, with like 7 other people hitting them at the same time.

well I didnt "say" pvp but, cmon !

Edited by jagz, 01 February 2011 - 05:11 PM.

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#96 PigGoesQuack

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:20 PM

I assumed it was during one of those massively outnumbed JO losses, sorry. Not bad.

I do want you to go fight Phish or something, or even a mage like jstn, or a knight like sparkle, a raider like, well any of you raiders, and see how it goes, though.

I correctly predicted I would lose 50% to 0% versus Spazzy. Nades and all. Also that one time I beat your raider probably the only time i'd ever, as the 35% stun worked multiple times, and I still only had a couple % left.

- I do wish I could see the "Gotten" list of that war for you :D . It would be cool if they kept statistics on wars and stuff.

Well Jagz you assume that bourgs and artis are such a underpowered class when it comes to war or a pvp, but honestly they aren't. Vuu and I have encountered a 1v1 in war with his arti.I fought vuu first, at first cloaked/stealthed. You would probably immediately assume that the arti has no chance and will die, that is incorrect, Vuu doesn't play your style. Vuu simply out ran me until i my stealth ran out. We got a fair 1v1. Vuu aspeeded me and stunned me of course, i cloaked, right here you would probably assume that he is screwed, but he was far from it. The moment we were fighting he never missed one aspeed hit, nade, nor skill, I cloaked to try to fight him, but I was already more than 1/4 off the way dead, if you don't know, when a raider is in combat and stealths/cloaks, he has to stun the enemy so he can retarget, but my stun was already blocked by his nades, when my mystic and triple slash failed. Within 3 seconds of me trying to escape with high mspeed, which he too had high mspeed, i was dying, eventually i couldn't escape for he had me targeted in cloak and had higher mspeed.


Another example, the reason you stand no chance most of the time against a champ or a raider is because your slow. If i recall, i can't kill your bourg antheum or neverthless, because most of the time they stun me and run and repeat the process, as where you stand and fight against the odds, not using your stun aoe to its advantage to escape and run, instead you stand their aoe and will scroll most of the time.

Look at TurtleG, he is a bourg just like you! Difference? His style. When in trouble ( against the odds) he can stun and mspeed stun aoe and succesfully escape without scrolling, why can't you do that? You always say that you stand no chance against us, if i remeber, the bourgs with decently mspeed live most of the time and don't have a problem escaping.
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#97 jagz

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:25 PM

You scroll like it's your job, 1 scroller calling out another scroller for scrolling is beyond hilarious.

G also does little damage upon AOE'ing in his precious gears. It's good, but, that's where our playstyles vary, I go for big damage not graceful fast running in a thick square of medic cross symbols like you.

As for the topic at hand, I'm taking any Kyoudai vs Kyoudai engagement when judging class strength with a grain of salt.

Edited by jagz, 01 February 2011 - 05:26 PM.

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#98 PigGoesQuack

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:29 PM

You scroll like it's your job, 1 scroller calling out another scroller for scrolling is beyond hilarious.

G also does little damage upon AOE'ing in his precious gears. It's good, but, that's where our playstyles vary, I go for big damage not graceful fast running in a thick square of medic cross symbols like you.

As for the topic at hand, I'm taking any Kyoudai vs Kyoudai engagement when judging class strength with a grain of salt.

I scroll like its my job? Hhahahahahahha, ask any of your rc/fg buddys, i'm sure i die and just rebuff, since i have too every 7 minutes anyway.
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#99 PigGoesQuack

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:34 PM

You scroll like it's your job, 1 scroller calling out another scroller for scrolling is beyond hilarious.

G also does little damage upon AOE'ing in his precious gears. It's good, but, that's where our playstyles vary, I go for big damage not graceful fast running in a thick square of medic cross symbols like you.

As for the topic at hand, I'm taking any Kyoudai vs Kyoudai engagement when judging class strength with a grain of salt.

I apologize that i do my best to survive,as for you it requires no effort when just about every cleric/aoe is on your side. Unless your pride gets the best of you, SIMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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#100 jagz

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:42 PM

I apologize that i do my best to survive,as for you it requires no effort when just about every cleric/aoe is on your side. Unless your pride gets the best of you, SIMBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


Yea, It's a nerf BS cause all bourgs are on the opposite side of Kyoudai thread, Yea I've known that since the beginning, thanks.

Again as to the topic onhand, You all have very little to worry about as far as grenades, Anyway. I'm done making them as it's incredibly time consuming and it's not exactly free, either.

Though If I use to help me escape, A valid play technique to you, Dont :D. <-- ahh interesting filter for female dog.

Edited by jagz, 01 February 2011 - 05:42 PM.

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