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Feb. Adjusted Damage WoE Feedback


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#51 Viri

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 03:17 PM

People didn't complain before BOO HOO I CAN'T SIEGE COMPETITIVELY ON MY LEVEL 60 SWORDSMAN. How is it any different? Go level.
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#52 Kadnya

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 03:26 PM

People didn't complain before BOO HOO I CAN'T SIEGE COMPETITIVELY ON MY LEVEL 60 SWORDSMAN. How is it any different? Go level.


It is indeed diferent, since renewal chamged a few things:

- First, is that preRE you could get to 8x+ level and start woeing in a week maybe. That was start woeing at 5% or less than maxing your chara. A good motivation to keep playing, if you can have fun early and improve later.

But in renewal, you cant start woeing that early. Levels are not exponential anymore so you won't get to a woeful level fast, neither you will be able to woe with the status formula being weighted too much...

- And second, in preRE, that swordman could do something more than being turned into a sitting duck being statuses all the time. Renewal brought us a lot of dissabling moves, and on top of that, made the old status impossible to resist other than by gear. Simple as this: if a game isn't fun, less people play it.

@Saphic: Yes, if woe was turned indeed into an end-game feature, because there are many other fun features to do until; I would agree that the status system makes sense... but there aren't such fun things to do. we have instead few broken instances, broken battlegrounds (which require you high levels too), broken/boring PVM... woe has kept RO alive for long time, and I would like to see a more generally accessible woe for everyone, at least until we start getting more fun content to do.

Edited by Kadnya, 13 February 2011 - 03:30 PM.

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#53 Viri

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 03:29 PM

At level 80 nontrans how much benefit were you to anyone in a serious WoE guild? Zero. Nontrans in general were worthless minus obvious things like priests. Who are you kidding?
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#54 Aeolus

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 03:36 PM

It is indeed diferent, since renewal chamged a few things:

- First, is that preRE you could get to 8x+ level and start woeing in a week maybe. That was start woeing at 5% or less than maxing your chara. A good motivation to keep playing, if you can have fun early and improve later.

But in renewal, you cant start woeing that early. Levels are not exponential anymore so you won't get to a woeful level fast, neither you will be able to woe with the status formula being weighted too much...

- And second, in preRE, that swordman could do something more than being turned into a sitting duck being statuses all the time. Renewal brought us a lot of dissabling moves, and on top of that, made the old status impossible to resist other than by gear. Simple as this: if a game isn't fun, less people play it.

@Saphic: Yes, if woe was turned indeed into an end-game feature, because there are many other fun features to do until; I would agree that the status system makes sense... but there aren't such fun things to do. we have instead few broken instances, broken battlegrounds (which require you high levels too), broken/boring PVM... woe has kept RO alive for long time, and I would like to see a more generally accessible woe for everyone, at least until we start getting more fun content to do.


Obviously you have not been playing this game for very long. In 2004-2006 or around that area leveling actually used to be hard, in fact it was harder than this renewal crap. You could not make it to 8x in a week or less. You could not make it to 7x in a week or less. (Unless you had really good slaves, and from what I'm getting from you I'm guessing this is the time you're saying it would take a person just starting out on RO to get to that level.)

Pre-Renewal 8x non-trans is not useful, the level range would probably be 9x. Trans became useful at around 85+.

And no that 6x swordsman is not useful at all in any kind of woe environment, although it's funny it really is not useful at all.

WoE has always been an End Game feature to RO although it has always been flexible with what level req's are needed to WoE. Because you could be level 1 and WoE. Although in other games like say WoW you need to be a certain level to participate in certain PvP aspects of the game.
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#55 Sapphic

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 03:51 PM

It is indeed diferent, since renewal chamged a few things:

- First, is that preRE you could get to 8x+ level and start woeing in a week maybe. That was start woeing at 5% or less than maxing your chara. A good motivation to keep playing, if you can have fun early and improve later.

But in renewal, you cant start woeing that early. Levels are not exponential anymore so you won't get to a woeful level fast, neither you will be able to woe with the status formula being weighted too much...

- And second, in preRE, that swordman could do something more than being turned into a sitting duck being statuses all the time. Renewal brought us a lot of dissabling moves, and on top of that, made the old status impossible to resist other than by gear. Simple as this: if a game isn't fun, less people play it.

@Saphic: Yes, if woe was turned indeed into an end-game feature, because there are many other fun features to do until; I would agree that the status system makes sense... but there aren't such fun things to do. we have instead few broken instances, broken battlegrounds (which require you high levels too), broken/boring PVM... woe has kept RO alive for long time, and I would like to see a more generally accessible woe for everyone, at least until we start getting more fun content to do.

Yeah, 8x used to be really hard. I remember my first trans, getting to 2nd class took ages and 7x / 8x were a nightmare, I barely made it to 9x.

You can WoE early. We actually have a bunch of 135's in guild who are very effective (although they play classes that generally stay in the back) but we have a lower level RG that tends to do pretty okay. WoE is okay at 140's + it just gets good at 150. Stat effects are supposed to be annoying. Even if you stat effect less, if you aren't immune, you'll die anyway. What's the point? Having lower HP doesn't help either.

Are you really insinuating a Swordie could've done something in WoE? LOL.

WoE was always end game, you're just spoiled by the fact that it was easier to hit end game pre-renewal near the end. Like I said, you're focusing on the wrong issue. If it was fun to level, WoE would exponentially become more fun as you level up. You just stated all those problems about the non-WoE portion of the game. So we should ignore the major portion of the game and focus ONLY on WoE for lower levels? If WoE is fun and the rest of it is garbage, people will quit. If the other junk is fun then WoE will naturally become more and more fun. Stop posting, you're making yourself sound stupid.

Old status aren't impossible to resist you just need the levels.

BTW, stat effects can all be cancelled in some way. WoE is a team effort. Stop crying.

Edited by Sapphic, 13 February 2011 - 04:04 PM.

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#56 dragoonlordz

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 04:14 PM

At level 80 nontrans how much benefit were you to anyone in a serious WoE guild? Zero. Nontrans in general were worthless minus obvious things like priests. Who are you kidding?


You have no idea what your talking about, I'll point that out now for you. Pre-Renewal you did not have to be max level to take part, enjoy and not be raped by those that are max level. Renewal brought with it overly powerfull skills to deal with PvM which when carried over into WoE/PvP kept that extremely powerfull attribute, classes need balancing and living longer in WoE is a benefit not a burden which if people can't see that then they should get their heads examined. Before even Trans WoE was even better still people could take part whatever the level and enjoy it and again did not have to be max level to take down others.

Status level range noone should have 100% chance to inflict on someone else, I seen people complaining about how Howl effects them more so than not even at 150 and they moan about it, you cant have it both ways 100% chance to inflict yet moan when someone can inflict upon yourself just because your 150 does not mean you along with every other benefit of higher stats, higher dmg and health and sp as well as maxed out skill trees.. You do not deserve even more buffs as that is enough to keep all but the egocentric happy.

Also Aeolus WoE was never an endgame back in the early days, it became an endgame for some long long after 2003 when was introduced I believe. Having played from 2004 myself I know for fact all the guilds I joined in all those years, all of them any class and any level from 40 up would WoE and while alot of the lower levels did die the ones from 70 up seemed to hold their own very well. Then trans came and the lower levels died easier due to the large increase in dmg the higher ones were given for going trans from there onwards came the slippery slope to where we are now. Where we have 3rd classes and a massive level jump to 150 with huge bonuses beyond what they should get have made WoE worse due the increase in power they have over what came before and no balancing has yet solved it which is what we all waiting for.

"6x swordsman is not useful at all in any kind of woe environment" They made great spies and lookouts tyvm. We used to WoE with even novices which survived not only all the way to the emp room they didn't die even uptill we broke Emps. If you need proof heres one not only that but check my level only 66 myself at time but I started taking part at 50+ and had no problem taking down level 80-90+ by out thinking and quicker reactions. Renewal ruined it abit but the problem started with trans but it was bareable.. The reduction in damage gives people time again once more to react and come up with solutions which is part of what made the old WoE more enjoyable and more skillfull with it not being a one man/women show at 150 taking down everyone just based on level difference alone, once they balance the classes I'm hoping WoE will finally be back to its glory days but the reduction should stay in place atleast until the balancing is done.

Spoiler


The sooner people realise that an MMO is for many not a very few elitists who if continue to push people away by ever increasing power difference between the top tier and the ones trying to reach it, which is especially seen with the bad game mechanics of how WoE did get worse as each new superior classes got created and the added jump of level range hike along with there 150 bonuses in PvP.. You keep pushing the friendly nice people away to fuel your e-peens and feed your egos sooner or later it really will just be a dozen people left playing with you. The rest will lose interest if they are forced out of an aspect of a game which could hold alot of enjoyment and even competition someone to play against later. Due to level being more important to WoE than skill or gear or willingness to participate, just for the fact someone gained some more levels has no skill and crappy gear can kill you even if your a better player than them because anything they do has 100% chance to effect you if your below just 15 levels lower than them imho is just not a good game mechanic, just because eventually it can be leveled past does not make a bad concept into a good one.

Edited by dragoonlordz, 13 February 2011 - 04:53 PM.

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#57 sgvince

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 05:13 PM

hey GMs, damage is fine somewhat. but can you guys work on the debuffs now? woe is a game of debuff really. howl? i mean howl would be fine if it didnt jack up instant cast skills. even bwing! can you also disable area reflect? its the dumbest skill there is. literally makes RGs untouchable while they can pretty much mow down everyone. masquerade weakness pierces FCP? 50% break chance on any gear for pinpoint? even the 160 MS in bio3 cant break my gears that often.
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#58 Sapphic

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 05:14 PM

Hello, they would be 150 if leveling was fun. 150 is end game... are you saying the game is stopping you from leveling after 125?

Lol @ elitists. Oh boy, WoE wasn't end game for probably over 6 years? WHO CARES? RO in the past was retarded. Monsters didn't use skills, you could Counter Attack MVPs to death, ETC. If you want to go back that long then getting 1% an hour at 98 was the norm so this Renewal leveling now must be a BREEZE. Why aren't you 150? It's so fast compared to back then. What a dumb argument, shut up.

Why make WoE better for lower levels when you should just make it more enjoyable to get to 150? You're not going to de-level, so WoE should be balanced around being 150, not 130.

You're even playing one of THE easiest/fastest characters to level. Jesus.

Edit: LOL again at Swordies being useful in WoE.

Edited by Sapphic, 13 February 2011 - 05:35 PM.

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#59 Snewt

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 05:32 PM

If anything the reduction helped you out more because you're an AB...
The only reason you were dying more is probably because the alliances are actually 'even' now. Also you weren't defending a castle for once which again makes it easier to not die. The blanket reduction is fine imo. Although I do agree with Haseo and Delta that they need to buff warlocks damage maybe a bit. Even though they are a disable class now instead of being a 'glass cannon.


I just wanted to point out that I wasn't trying to start drama between alliances, there are still some skills that need nerfing/adjusting. Next time I'll be sure to fraps so I can figure out what is actually getting me killed :Emo_14:

Also if you wanted to talk about "even" alliances, it was far from even last night. :< I'm surprised we got as far as we did with what we had.
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#60 Akin

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 05:45 PM

WoE was fine last night. I was only on for a short while but I did notice far less OHKOs.

This is off topic, but as for the status resistance thing, my main issue is that because there are so many stat points to be had by 150, that it's too easy for a person to make a build that is immune to almost all of the original status effects (especially with new gen foods), and not suffer drastically (or really at all) when it comes to dealing damage. It would be much better IMO if they made the immunity come from the base stat instead of the total one (that or raise immunity to 120 total).

And while I'll agree that competitive WoE is an end game feature, I don't feel like it simply shouldn't be fun if you're not 150. I still find WoE fun and I'm not 150, but I have a feeling that those who are frustrated are frustrated because they find themselves in a guild that isn't working together as a team. The problem is is that PvM leveling in Renewal doesn't reinforce the need for or teach people how to work as a team. Destroying class synergy by giving everyone a means to level solo (outside of ABs) was a very poor decision by the devs over at kRO (damn knuckleheads). As Sapphic said, if they fix interclass synergy by improving partying, people might learn how to play together as 3rds and WoE will become fun again. Especially now that GOD items aren't giving the type of buffs they did pre-renewal.

Basically, PvM is a tool to teach cooperation so that you can succeed in WoE, unfortunately it's not doing that currently. It's Game Design 101 kRO, please go back to the drawing board and get it right.
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#61 dragoonlordz

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:20 PM

Hello, they would be 150 if leveling was fun. 150 is end game... are you saying the game is stopping you from leveling after 125?

You're even playing one of THE easiest/fastest characters to level. Jesus.


I don't recall saying anything was stopping me from getting to 150... It's my own personal decision not to grind upto it yet.

Lol @ elitists. Oh boy, WoE wasn't end game for probably over 6 years? WHO CARES? RO in the past was retarded.


Server population would disagree with you, alot of people cared.

If you want to go back that long then getting 1% an hour at 98 was the norm so this Renewal leveling now must be a BREEZE. Why aren't you 150? It's so fast compared to back then. What a dumb argument, shut up.


My IQ dropped 50 points just reading your reply, I would like them points back please if you would be so kind. That is accomplished by you saying something intelligent for a change. If you truly are the new breed of iRO player then I seriously fear for the state of this game in the future and the mentality and maturity of the player base in years to come.

Edit: LOL again at Swordies being useful in WoE.


Like I said in my post, they used to be part of the fun and even had some uses, might I suggest you go back and read again. A vast amount of people preferred the old WoE due to the fact pre-trans all classes seemed to have roles to play and the level required to participate was more lenient which allowed more people to enjoy it, after trans and pre-renewal iRO was still balancing out the classes but they had reached a stage where it was still fairly enjoyable for most people but naturally started to outcast certain level ranges and classes. Then came renewal itself which threw a major spanner in the works as they hadn't completed balancing on trans fully yet had all these new game mechanics and classes and level hike. Due to that we are now at the stage where not many people were truly enjoying the WoE aspect anymore, which is why both the GMs and the players are trying to find solutions with the damage reduction being the latest thing they are trying and as far as I am concerned is a good temporary measure until the classes become more balanced. Also if you may remember they tried to do a level variable WoE event which was very popular if I recall correctly now why do you think that was? I shall spell it out for you, it's simply because the more people you involve in an activity the more fun it becomes and the more likley they will decide to take part later on at 150 but to exclude them with massive debuffs in the way of huge buffs for only 150 and lack of balancing will put them off caring enough to take part at a later date.

P.S. If your not contributing and merely trolling or flamebaiting please stop talking as your doing yourself no justice at all in the eyes of others.

Edited by dragoonlordz, 13 February 2011 - 07:37 PM.

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#62 Puppet

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:33 PM

WoE was a pot fest.


woe has always been pot fest where you been?
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#63 Aeolus

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:43 PM

Also Aeolus WoE was never an endgame back in the early days, it became an endgame for some long long after 2003 when was introduced I believe. Having played from 2004 myself I know for fact all the guilds I joined in all those years, all of them any class and any level from 40 up would WoE and while alot of the lower levels did die the ones from 70 up seemed to hold their own very well. Then trans came and the lower levels died easier due to the large increase in dmg the higher ones were given for going trans from there onwards came the slippery slope to where we are now. Where we have 3rd classes and a massive level jump to 150 with huge bonuses beyond what they should get have made WoE worse due the increase in power they have over what came before and no balancing has yet solved it which is what we all waiting for.


Well maybe you just played in bad guilds? WoE has always been for the higher level people just like any pvp aspect in an MMO. Although there maybe some fun with PvP'ing on a low level char for some of them like WoW where there are certain level req's like 10-19, etc. RO tried to implement that in the old style pvp but it never got popular. I was actually in Eternal a while back but I played a wizard back then and yes I WoE'd on a 8x wiz but I felt useless, so I leveled up and got to 9x and actually felt like I was doing something.
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#64 dragoonlordz

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 06:51 PM

Well maybe you just played in bad guilds? WoE has always been for the higher level people just like any pvp aspect in an MMO. Although there maybe some fun with PvP'ing on a low level char for some of them like WoW where there are certain level req's like 10-19, etc. RO tried to implement that in the old style pvp but it never got popular. I was actually in Eternal a while back but I played a wizard back then and yes I WoE'd on a 8x wiz but I felt useless, so I leveled up and got to 9x and actually felt like I was doing something.


Which person were you in Eternal as I was there for most of the time I should be able to recall you. Many many wizards around level 80+ who took part did not feel the same way, so you cannot fault the level ranges just based on your own inadequacies emotionally (I only used that term because you said yourself felt inadequate at 80 so not having a digg at you personally) regarding being level 80 compared to 99 as alot of people found themselves to be very good in the 80s even in the 70s whether via precasts or part of the defense team.

Edited by dragoonlordz, 13 February 2011 - 07:41 PM.

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#65 Ralis

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:35 PM

woe has always been pot fest where you been?


Sorry, guess I needed to elaborate.

WoE was more of a pot fest.
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#66 Aeolus

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 07:54 PM

Which person were you in Eternal as I was there for most of the time I should be able to recall you. Many many wizards around level 80+ who took part did not feel the same way, so you cannot fault the level ranges just based on your own inadequacies emotionally (I only used that term because you said yourself felt inadequate at 80 so not having a digg at you personally) regarding being level 80 compared to 99 as alot of people found themselves to be very good in the 80s even in the 70s whether via precasts or part of the defense team.

Cast's For Zenny. Once again I think you're stretching the truth a little bit, yes they may feel useful but they actually really wouldn't have been back then. Oh look I can cast storm gust in like 50 seconds (Obviously an exaggeration.) But you get my point. I guess 8x was alright non-trans mainly after you got 85 it was a lot better. But still you weren't anywhere near as useful as being 99. Which is what WoE often boils down to. Who can be the highest and have the best gears.
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#67 dragoonlordz

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 08:09 PM

Who can be the highest and have the best gears.


That is the worst kind of WoE anyone could ever imagine where an aspect of the game doesn't boil down to who has the most skill or team play but merely your ability purely derives from your level and whatever gear you bought or borrowed. Back then skill meant something now as you say yourself (for which I take offense too) all comes down to level and gear neither of which are remotley hard to get if so wished.
With levels coming only from time spent and gear from relying on others stronger than yourself or more organised or even at best situation, back to merely time spent again this time hunting items instead of monsters. Neither has any relationship with skill/ability within a PvP based enviroment. Posted Image

Never heard of your Wiz which would mean you were not in the guild for long or did not stand out from the crowd or maybe might have only joined after I quit iRO for while before coming back. Looking at your alts on ROPD, seems you had a character called Bear though.. Now there was a toon named Bear but he was a wizard on Iris who scammed alot of people guild leaders mostly even Eternals guild leader Bobby and then Bear vanished then probably renamed his character with all the scammed gears.
I'm going to assume the two names one of your toon and this wizard from Iris with same name are just a coincidence for your reputations sake.

One last thing who do you think you are to say "yes they may feel useful but they actually really wouldn't have been back then", what you consider useful is not gospel and while you may have felt useless it does not mean all other wizards within that level range were as bad as yourself.

Because you find it easier at 99 does not mean others more skilled at their class would not be able to contribute very much so during WoE even in the 70-80s.

Now one would hope your better at your class than you was back then of which you admit you felt yourself to be inadequate at the time but if your desire for WoE is purely based on "Who can be the highest and have the best gears" then I guess we can not see eye to eye on the matter and I will leave it there as this is detracting from the actual topic.

Hopefully the GMs will read what people have said and will let us know in time what their plans are regarding the balancing issues and other such things we have been discussing. But I hope they keep this damage reduction until they figure out what they are going to do with regard to the balancing of the classes.

Edited by dragoonlordz, 13 February 2011 - 08:26 PM.

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#68 Luckywhiterabbit

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 08:27 PM

seriously why don't we have level tiers for pvp style games instead of forcing everyone to be at max lv to compete? Isn't that logical?
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#69 Sapphic

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 09:00 PM

All I can say is "lol" again. Way to insult me then tell me not to be a flamer. GJ. (All your replies were completely irrelevant to the point I was making btw, which is that leveling should be more fun).

Adapt to the new RO and ask the GMs to make leveling more fun, not change WoE to make it how you THINK it was in 05. Such a waste of time. "Blah blah was so much better back then." No one cares. It's not going to revert back.

Lol @ levels = ability. Why don't you just quit, because you're playing an MMO. Have you not realized this? Gear and levels makes my character better? What a concept!

Btw, if you can't tell people with different skill levels apart, then clearly all you're seeing are a bunch of baddies.

Edit: "new breed of RO player" what. You don't even know how long I've played for. Way to assume something that doesn't even matter. Dumb.

Edit 2: Last post on this. It's gone way too off topic.

To the GMs: I like the WoE reduction, but please balance it out for the already weaker classes like Warlock and Mechanic. Overall, it creates more reason to work together so I enjoyed it thoroughly.

Edited by Sapphic, 13 February 2011 - 09:07 PM.

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#70 Pril

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 09:08 PM

seriously why don't we have level tiers for pvp style games instead of forcing everyone to be at max lv to compete? Isn't that logical?

KVM was originally divided into different level ranges. They however did not create new level ranges for 100+ and just lumped them all into the 80+ category.
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#71 Andini

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 10:01 PM

lvls/gears in woe have always made a difference in woe. sure, you could help out a guild being a 80 bard prerenewal just as you can help a guild being a 130 maestro but you are most effective in survivability and the things you can do at the max lvl, 99 then 150 now. 150ing is not a grind anymore with all the events and things put in, there are a lot of 140+ people.

it used to be people complaining early renewal that most of the first 150s were too high lvled and that they couldnt match up at all. then they lvled and then realized oh man, it's not bad at all.
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#72 Myzery

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 01:34 AM

That is the worst kind of WoE anyone could ever imagine where an aspect of the game doesn't boil down to who has the most skill or team play but merely your ability purely derives from your level and whatever gear you bought or borrowed. Back then skill meant something now as you say yourself (for which I take offense too) all comes down to level and gear neither of which are remotley hard to get if so wished.
With levels coming only from time spent and gear from relying on others stronger than yourself or more organised or even at best situation, back to merely time spent again this time hunting items instead of monsters. Neither has any relationship with skill/ability within a PvP based enviroment. Posted Image

Never heard of your Wiz which would mean you were not in the guild for long or did not stand out from the crowd or maybe might have only joined after I quit iRO for while before coming back. Looking at your alts on ROPD, seems you had a character called Bear though.. Now there was a toon named Bear but he was a wizard on Iris who scammed alot of people guild leaders mostly even Eternals guild leader Bobby and then Bear vanished then probably renamed his character with all the scammed gears.
I'm going to assume the two names one of your toon and this wizard from Iris with same name are just a coincidence for your reputations sake.

One last thing who do you think you are to say "yes they may feel useful but they actually really wouldn't have been back then", what you consider useful is not gospel and while you may have felt useless it does not mean all other wizards within that level range were as bad as yourself.

Because you find it easier at 99 does not mean others more skilled at their class would not be able to contribute very much so during WoE even in the 70-80s.

Now one would hope your better at your class than you was back then of which you admit you felt yourself to be inadequate at the time but if your desire for WoE is purely based on "Who can be the highest and have the best gears" then I guess we can not see eye to eye on the matter and I will leave it there as this is detracting from the actual topic.

Hopefully the GMs will read what people have said and will let us know in time what their plans are regarding the balancing issues and other such things we have been discussing. But I hope they keep this damage reduction until they figure out what they are going to do with regard to the balancing of the classes.


He didn't play Iris, the real Eternal was on Loki forever ago.
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#73 Cylon

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:15 AM

+1 for the reduction in damage
+1 for moving in the right drection
+1 for making woe better
= +3??
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#74 dragoonlordz

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:17 AM

+1 for the reduction in damage
+1 for moving in the right drection
+1 for making woe better
= +3??


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#75 Wizard

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 09:40 AM

If anything the reduction helped you out more because you're an AB...
The only reason you were dying more is probably because the alliances are actually 'even' now. Also you weren't defending a castle for once which again makes it easier to not die. The blanket reduction is fine imo. Although I do agree with Haseo and Delta that they need to buff warlocks damage maybe a bit. Even though they are a disable class now instead of being a 'glass cannon.'


Nooooo!!! don't remind me that... I don't wanna be a disable class now... lol... I was happy with 40% reduction with magic... having 60% reduction is way too low for our matk... if it were the case, at least let us have our old matk (pre-renewal matk went up to 23XX w/o god items/hibram shoes)... with that matk this 60% reduction can be justified... but as of it is right now, with barely 14XX matk top, we can't have that 60% woe reduction...

As I said before... everything is ok now... but after a while guilds are going to be running out of money to keep themselves alive... pots/seeds are not that cheap but it will get harder and harder to hunt after drop penalty...

Anyway... any word of Heim? what is he planning to do after this next maintenance?
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