77 replies to this topic

[meaning42]

You mean that interacting with the killer but not the killed would make you get less than full exp?
That would make support classes level slower, while melees with crap dmg would still get full exp, so this would be unfair, unless the melees got reduced exp from doing unnoticeable help, but that would almost bring you back to what we have now.

Now the problem is whether it's possible to implement this. It comes down to the question:
After A interacts with B, does the server now who A was?

Example
When a priest casts Blessing on a RK, does the server know who this Blessing came from afterwards?

Thats not what I was saying persay, I was trying to say what you said:
"When a priest casts Blessing on a RK, does the server know who this Blessing came from afterwards?"
As long as Player "A" lets say a bard, has influenced the party with Song of Lutie or Magic Strings or somethin, he should get 100% exp as well. but in the case he has to recharge or something, he should still get decent exp, maybe like right now, 50% or something.

I can still see some problems with this thing though, for example if they have a sage/professor in the team that is there for the sole purpose of refilling peoples SP, if noone needs SP during 5 monster kills, and he has to conserve his own SP, then he will get less exp.

I sort of liked the idea instead that everyone thats on the same screen would get 100% from the monster. If there are someone in the party just sitting there and doing nothing while the rest of the party is busting their -_-es, then they can just kick him, simple as that.

Edited by meaning42, 09 May 2011 - 05:26 AM.

[Luckywhiterabbit]

erk, that post probably was meant for another thread. What was I doing?

Anyway, turnin events are fun, but I kind of disliked them pre-renewal. I never really got a chance to go out and explore other dungeons, and missed out on a lot of experiences because of that. A lot of people actually prefer to solo, and soloing should in my opinion always give more reward than partying. Partying, while social, makes for an easier time due to characters working together. Partying should be easier and more effective than soloing, but should give less exp and reward, not the other way around. People should not be penalised for soloing.

Edited by Luckywhiterabbit, 09 May 2011 - 05:27 AM.

[Wanderer]

Just fix the damn party system and stop relying on temp solutions

[Luckywhiterabbit]

that too. I don't see why everyone in a party needs to have their exp split so much anyway. I love that idea of everyone getting 100% exp if they interact with the monster, who cares if people use it to leech.

[meaning42]

erk, that post probably was meant for another thread. What was I doing?

Anyway, turnin events are fun, but I kind of disliked them pre-renewal. I never really got a chance to go out and explore other dungeons, and missed out on a lot of experiences because of that. A lot of people actually prefer to solo, and soloing should in my opinion always give more reward than partying. Partying, while social, makes for an easier time due to characters working together. Partying should be easier and more effective than soloing, but should give less exp and reward, not the other way around. People should not be penalised for soloing.

Have you been reading in? We've said that partying should get 100% of the exp, not be penatalized by being social.
If you prefer to solo, you arn't losing out you are still getting 100% exp.

In a attempt to increase the co-op play in this game, increased exp from partying isn't a bad idea. I for one do not enjoy endless farming by myself, I rather go out into a more dangerous dungon with a few friends or even a few strangers that can become friends. All friends start out as strangers after all. But I am drifting from the topic. But going into a party now, especially after renewal sucks monkey-_- because exp differ so little Area A= easy to the harder Area B = hard as balonie.

Don't think of it as being punished from soloing, think of it as being rewarded for partying.

Edited by meaning42, 09 May 2011 - 05:45 AM.

[Charon]

Thats not what I was saying persay, I was trying to say what you said:
"When a priest casts Blessing on a RK, does the server know who this Blessing came from afterwards?"
As long as Player "A" lets say a bard, has influenced the party with Song of Lutie or Magic Strings or somethin, he should get 100% exp as well. but in the case he has to recharge or something, he should still get decent exp, maybe like right now, 50% or something.

I can still see some problems with this thing though, for example if they have a sage/professor in the team that is there for the sole purpose of refilling peoples SP, if noone needs SP during 5 monster kills, and he has to conserve his own SP, then he will get less exp.

I sort of liked the idea instead that everyone thats on the same screen would get 100% from the monster. If there are someone in the party just sitting there and doing nothing while the rest of the party is busting their -_-es, then they can just kick him, simple as that.

Yeah. I ditched "on screen range" because it creates the problem of people leeching their own characters with one that kills fast.

If someone like you mentioned SP refill sage has nothing to do, or a priest currently doesnt need to buff or heal anyone, he could just cast a firebolt/holy light, or go melee for 1 hit.

It means that the supporters have to do at least something at each battle. Since the killers have to do that too I dont really see an issue, especially if monsters lasted longer by having 4times their current hp, more likely someone would need a heal.


But this doesnt adress stuff like songs, youre right.

How about this.
If an RK with bless kills a monster, the priest gets full exp regardless if the bless was given before the monster was attacked.
Now you have the issue of long lasting buff characters being leechable.
Like using an endow, and then put sage on autofollow for 30min.
x_x

The best would still be eeveryone getting full on screen range, if we figured out how to prevent leeching. Maybe the server could detect the use of autofollow and not give them exp?

Edited by Charon, 09 May 2011 - 05:43 AM.

[gravitysucks]

Thanks for the responses - I just want to point out that having turn in quests and a good partying system aren't actually mutually exclusive.

The availability of goats and lolis didn't prevent people from partying at NI3 or Bio3, nor did it prevent anyone having a blast grinding macho style alone at ID3 or Thors. The problem discussed in this thread at least is the lack of options for players to level in renewal rather than whether there is a magical solution that will fix everything and/or the efficacy of the current partying system. Permanent turn-ins have been around in some form or another for quite some time -- Eden quests also include it -- but unfortunately don't extend beyond the newbie levels. Also, turn ins are hardly game breaking - the exp rate at medusas was steady but hardly comparable to soloing jups or abyss; it was, on the other hand, a lot more fun and rewarding socially.

Edited by gravitysucks, 09 May 2011 - 05:45 AM.

[Charon]

btw fyi, they are adding more to eden. on kro they have ones for up to 110 atm.
includes stuff like magmarings, desert wolves, siromas.
But meh...
Id rather they address the party system itself.

Edited by Charon, 09 May 2011 - 05:50 AM.

[meaning42]

Yeah. I ditched "on screen range" because it creates the problem of people leeching their own characters with one that kills fast.

If someone like you mentioned SP refill sage has nothing to do, or a priest currently doesnt need to buff or heal anyone, he could just cast a firebolt/holy light, or go melee for 1 hit.

It means that the supporters have to do at least something at each battle. Since the killers have to do that too I dont really see an issue, especially if monsters lasted longer by having 4times their current hp, more likely someone would need a heal.


But this doesnt adress stuff like songs, youre right.

How about this.
If an RK with bless kills a monster, the priest gets full exp regardless if the bless was given before the monster was attacked.
Now you have the issue of long lasting buff characters being leechable.
Like using an endow, and then put sage on autofollow for 30min.
x_x

The best would still be eeveryone getting full on screen range, if we figured out how to prevent leeching. Maybe the server could detect the use of autofollow and not give them exp?

Let me just ask something, is leeching really THAT bad? I mean, we are already leeching, I know it's not the best way to do it, but hell if I won't keep doing it. I still need to get my priest wife to 99 and my priest baby to 99! And they are useless at doing it themselves.

[Luckywhiterabbit]

Have you been reading in? We've said that partying should get 100% of the exp, not be penatalized by being social.
If you prefer to solo, you arn't losing out you are still getting 100% exp.

In a attempt to increase the co-op play in this game, increased exp from partying isn't a bad idea. I for one do not enjoy endless farming by myself, I rather go out into a more dangerous dungon with a few friends or even a few strangers that can become friends. All friends start out as strangers after all. But I am drifting from the topic. But going into a party now, especially after renewal sucks monkey-_- because exp differ so little Area A= easy to the harder Area B = hard as balonie.

Don't think of it as being punished from soloing, think of it as being rewarded for partying.

To party, you should be getting less than 100% exp then, if soloing will grant you 100%, because it's much easier to suceed as a party. I vastly prefer soloing because it gives me full control of what I kill, how fast I kill it, when I can take breaks, what drops I can pick up, and what I do. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy a party now and again to help leech a friend.

But as far as risk vs reward goes, soloing should alway yield more exp by default per kill than party to a single character. Party should give less exp, but at the convenience of everyone leveling at the same time. Party should potentially allow for higher exp per hour if the party is well organised and efficient, but it shouldn't automatically be superior to soloing in terms of sheer exp output alone.

I suggest that maybe 70-80% per monster for a 2 man party would be ideal, not the 50% we have now.

[Charon]

Well its the main concern from the majority when they hear the idea of screen range full exp share party, thats why im trying to think of a way to prevent it.

If the server would be able to exclude players who autofollow from getting exp thats one way.

And then there is the way that would require gravity to do something. Which is making monsters behave so that leeching will be to hard. Making them use aoe skills, target players who dont attack them, or whatever else one can come up with, the limit is imgaination here xD

[meaning42]

To party, you should be getting less than 100% exp then, if soloing will grant you 100%, because it's much easier to suceed as a party. I vastly prefer soloing because it gives me full control of what I kill, how fast I kill it, when I can take breaks, what drops I can pick up, and what I do. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy a party now and again to help leech a friend.

But as far as risk vs reward goes, soloing should alway yield more exp by default per kill than party to a single character. Party should give less exp, but at the convenience of everyone leveling at the same time. Party should potentially allow for higher exp per hour if the party is well organised and efficient, but it shouldn't automatically be superior to soloing in terms of sheer exp output alone.

I suggest that maybe 70-80% per monster for a 2 man party would be ideal, not the 50% we have now.

But as the exp is right now, >_> Partying isn't WORTH it, at all! Since there arn't any areas where you can get exponentially more exp to make the reduction < the effort/gain. On the other hand, we got the same exp from each monster as if we had killed it on our own, then that would allow parties at harder areas without feeling like you could do it faster on your own at magmarings/W/E.

[Miii]

Please don't turn RO into easy mode.

[Andini]

do you even still play lol

[meaning42]

I'm not saying I want easy mode, I'm saying I want to party with people, in hard ass dungeons rather then just listning to the voices in my head.
Also, the only thing I wish to make easier atm is how alchemists get job levels, but thats about it. Right now the best option is leeching.

[Charon]

Please don't turn RO into easy mode.

It would help if you elaborate what you mean by that.

We're trying to turn it into a game that's actually fun,
by making partying a viable option
and making jobs who arent RK/Sura level faster.

Edited by Charon, 09 May 2011 - 06:50 AM.

[Kadnya]

I don't see any reason why we can't have classes who support and kill and tank. If everyone can do it, then what's the problem? The support offered by a Sorceror is very different to the support offered by an Arch bishop, so there can still be diversity even though characters are capable of fulfilling multiple roles.

At this point, weaker classes need to get stronger, and overpowered classes need to have some nerfs (And I don't mean knee-jerk nerfs. Nerfs that strip a previously useful move of it's usefullness are bad. I doubt anyone would complain if Mandragora howling were given a cast time, for example. The Genetics could still use their amazing skill to full effect, they would just need to be protected by their guildmates while they charge up for the howl.

Battle Arch bishops should be able to kill people and monsters, maybe not as effectively as a real killer class, but they should be able to use their strengths to offense at some degree of sucess. This goes for all classes. The beauty of RO is that you can make any build you want as you have full control over your stats, and I feel that this should be encouraged.

Characters do not need to be limited and given black-and-white roles.

If you have characters who fill every roll, you simply don't have roles. And then simply you stop having people grouping, and since everyone can do everything, everyone just ends choosing the strongest character, which is exactly what currently happens with sura/RG/etc.

[MrBudd]

Turn ins are for the lazy, people need to stop being so damn greedy with EXP, learn to share and not have this need for instant gratification on leveling stupidly quickly. Turn ins just spoiled everyone into getting easy exp, exploiting the fact that a much higher level party member can 1shot monsters to get quicker turn ins. I'm pretty sure NO ONE is going to cry about bringing back turn ins if exp was 40-60% of the base exp value for the # of monsters killed, had a 15 min cool down and required that monster kills be from someone withing range to do the quest and not some 150 RK/Genetic thats helping everyone kill. These quests were originally meant as an ancillary source of EXP to boost the exp a party got from killing monsters in a share party, NOT as a primary source of getting EXP. If there's anything game breaking in this game, it's turn in quests with a wide level range. Why? Instead of playing this game with friends and going through the massive amount of game content that goes unused, people camp at turn in parties for the entire level range they can.

I honestly believe the party system is fine but what's broken is the whole penalty with killing tougher monsters. Increase it so that a group of players can take out something 16-20 levels higher and not get dinged for it. The new VIP dungeon is a fantastic place for partying but I don't see it being used much. A higher level dungeon of similar sort would be fantastic to see.

I really hope the folks that run Gravity don't spoil their kids the way they spoil the kids here.

[Kadnya]

I vastly prefer soloing because it gives me full control of what I kill, how fast I kill it, when I can take breaks, what drops I can pick up, and what I do. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy a party now and again to help leech a friend.

As you point out, soloing has these advantages, opposed to having to organize a party, coordinate, and such. And thus, if it takes more effort, it's just logical that it gives more reward. Also, real partying isn't leeching, but cooperating towards a goal.

But as far as risk vs reward goes, soloing should alway yield more exp by default per kill than party to a single character. Party should give less exp, but at the convenience of everyone leveling at the same time. Party should potentially allow for higher exp per hour if the party is well organised and efficient, but it shouldn't automatically be superior to soloing in terms of sheer exp output alone.

This is however, very true. Partying shouldn't instantly be better by having higher modifiers, but be 'better' in the way that there are some places where you need a party in order to succeed or be the most efficient. Renewal lacks this point in that since anyone can solo any monster, adding more characters on the fight doesn't increase the killing speed since monster dies in one hit, nor isn't needed because monsters are already dying.

Really harder dungeons, in the order of 5x or more times the current 'hard izlude dungeon' with maybe 10x the rewards and so on... places where having buffs, and supportive skills, and safety wall, and penuma, and magnetic earth, and jackfrost/mysty, and all those combinations of skills have a use. Where you actually need to wear proper gear like before...

Sure, there should still be the easier options, but harder options which are better than the easy option would be super.


Edit: Just a note, because "10x the exp" and so sounds like a lot more: higher exp would be to compensate the slower time killing and the fact that exp would be divided between more people. But ideally, if for example, soloing in X map give you 1x exp per hour, partying in a much harder version would give each member 2x the exp of the easy version per hour, and so on. So, while you would have to party, use supplies and use the correct gear, the reward for doing so would be worth the effort.

Edited by Kadnya, 09 May 2011 - 07:37 AM.

[Charon]

@Mr.Budd
I mostly agree except that I do think changing the party system would be very nice if done right.
How it's currently, partying is rarely as good as solo, usually slowing you down too much.


So do you like the idea of share parties giving 100% exp to all members that saw the monster die?
or to everyone that either hit the monster at least once, or used a skill on any of the attackers?

Edited by Charon, 09 May 2011 - 07:20 AM.

[NoxiousOrchid]

I can see an flaw with the on screen exp share. Many people like to make camping parties, and that requires pullers who have to run off screen to go get monsters, thus not getting the same benefit as everyone else. Yes, they can do moving parties, but then those tend to get annoying when you have bards/dancers in party and no soul linker. Then there are Giant Fly Wings, however some people don't feel they should be required to buy mall items just to have a decent party running.

In my opinion a full party should never have the exp per person exceed 50%. Some monsters do need to be buffed to make them not solo-able by any class, but worth doing in a party, in a place that does not require being VIP. Why in a place that doesn't require VIP? Makes it easier to form parties there when everyone has access to it.

Feel free to pick this apart. Would love to see how you propose to fix the problem with being a puller.

[meaning42]

I like the idea of every party member on the same screen as the party leader to get 100% exp from all the monsters.
It would at least make partying more common.

[KingOfBabylon]

Uh... If it were like that, I don't think anyone would really bother trying to gather up a party for a single turn in, you spend like 20min trying to assemble the party, then you do the quest in 15min and then it's over. "Hurray, I got 10%!"
I don't really see whats fun about leveling "normally", do you mean grinding? Killing magmarings solo for 6 hours straight? I wouldn't miss it.

Huh? How would it take 20 minutes to grab a guildmate or friend and kill 60 or so raydrics? O.o

Edited by KingOfBabylon, 09 May 2011 - 08:32 AM.

[meaning42]

Huh? How would it take 20 minutes to grab a guildmate or friend and kill 60 or so raydrics? O.o

Aye, sorry 'bout that, I was thinking our of my arse.

[Charon]

I can see an flaw with the on screen exp share. Many people like to make camping parties, and that requires pullers who have to run off screen to go get monsters, thus not getting the same benefit as everyone else. Yes, they can do moving parties, but then those tend to get annoying when you have bards/dancers in party and no soul linker. Then there are Giant Fly Wings, however some people don't feel they should be required to buy mall items just to have a decent party running.

In my opinion a full party should never have the exp per person exceed 50%. Some monsters do need to be buffed to make them not solo-able by any class, but worth doing in a party, in a place that does not require being VIP. Why in a place that doesn't require VIP? Makes it easier to form parties there when everyone has access to it.

Feel free to pick this apart. Would love to see how you propose to fix the problem with being a puller.

Would people really prefer to camp in such a system? I don't think so, because it should be faster to move around a map and kill everything on the way, unless it has a really high spawn, which in turn wouldn't require pullers.

If people like to make camp parties it's because it's an option and worth it. Depending on the situation, map and monsters (and whether gravity will ever bother changing around monster behaviour and stats to give us variation) it may or may not be better than moving.

The "pullers" can always go solo if they can afford to lose the buffs provided by party, given that they can kill. If they cannot, then ask a friend RK who is soloing and follow him around for example.
After all, the classes that can solo now would be able to solo after, except exp-wise they wouldnt mind having you follow them unless they move around mainly by wings.

I can see Bard/Dancer and field skills causing minor problems.
The sage fields like Deluge can be recast without gem use for its duration.
ME and the duet songs are skills you would wanna use at camping big stuff.

The solos. a Bard/Dancer doesn't necessary have to use them all the time, when theres a bigger mob for example would be the time, otherwise they could attack like everyone else. The change I'm proposing wouldnt make it tougher for them than it is now, regardless.

I like the idea of every party member on the same screen as the party leader to get 100% exp from all the monsters.
It would at least make partying more common.

I was thinking of on screen from the one who did the last hit, didn't consider it could be on screen around party leader.
Thought at first it wouldn't matter, but it makes a difference. If the pty leader wouldnt follow fast enough no one would get any exp except the off screen killer, so this could just unnecessary complicate things. On screen from the one who finished it off.

But know that I think about it, what if someone outside the party comes along and finishes a monster off. Would the game still know who landed the last hit from the party, to give everyone the percentage of exp according to how much dmg they did?

Edited by Charon, 09 May 2011 - 09:02 AM.