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#26 fyerolight

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 11:31 PM

Just my two cents.
For the Burrow duration/cooldown change: Savages don't have many other skills that will help evade pve attacks, yes we do have moonwalk and the box, but the Cooldown on the skills is pretty high.
For Provoke: Skill needs to either have a wider range or a higher stun %.
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#27 Slayze

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 12:57 AM

I've seen plenty of grens that can land snipings with ease and do just fine solo. The problem with Grenadiers is that they take the most skill to play, but once you get to the point where you know how to play them well they become borderline over powered with sniping. If you give grens anyy sort of catch such as tesla for example then combine it with skills like sniping,vulcan, tank you've got a class that instantly kills all of the classes without even having to try.

edit: Grens are one of the classes in games where if you add one thing they completely blow everyone out of the water, but then if you don't add it they become extremely difficult to play.


This is the entire problem right now.
With the Sniping nerf, you are making them even worse to play with.

Honestly, it's not like we have the highest firepower among all the classes in the first place.
For burst damage, Warrior classes are able to do twice our damage in half the time, with practically no start-up time.
The thing about Sniping is that there's zero solo (and lowish group) combo potential, and it's effectiveness falls sharply against block and high evade classes.
Its potential also heavily drops with ASPD, so in naked matches, it's significantly weaker.

Well, I can understand lowering its capabilites in high-end (ASPD and CD) matches, but aside from that, it's pretty balanced when you consider what other classes have at the moment.
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#28 Nylet

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:20 AM

Remove Parry but for God's sake do not remove Spin It Bear! :P
Are this changes 100%?

Edited by Nylet, 11 December 2011 - 04:21 AM.

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#29 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:49 AM

@tainguyen
The bug does work on it.

@Slayze
I've never seen a warrior achieve more burst damage than what a sniping can do. It says something if a single skill can kill stacked players with a single use. Personally I don't think such a thing should have a mere 8 second cooldown. You won't even need combo potential if the target dies.

@Nylet
Spin it bear doesn't have to be removed, but it needs to be changed in some way, shape, or form. Between that and swords dance, dragoons have the most overpowered ground/air combo initiators.
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#30 EnderW

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 05:35 AM

Remove Parry but for God's sake do not remove Spin It Bear! :P
Are this changes 100%?


No it's not 100% as rim said it's the notes he took on the game balance summit which was held over 2 days this past week with the GMs (Aramis aka Nolanvoid and Hastur) which along with any notes the GMs took will be made into a report and sent to the development team this thread is also a chance for all players to have a say and to add things to it

It is the hope that the development team will then look into making at least some of the changes but ultimately any changes are up to them.
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#31 wyverlord

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 06:27 AM

if myrms wanted spin it bear also, and its a little OP, couldnt just nerf the dmg and put longer cooldown and instead of putting it for knights, move it to the warrior skill tree so that both myrms and knights get it?
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#32 zabmaru

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:42 AM

About warmages:
Could we increase the groggy on WM skills just a bit? They're totally useless at bosses.
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#33 Rimmy

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:45 AM

Remove Parry but for God's sake do not remove Spin It Bear! :P
Are this changes 100%?



No it's not 100% as rim said it's the notes he took on the game balance summit which was held over 2 days this past week with the GMs (Aramis aka Nolanvoid and Hastur) which along with any notes the GMs took will be made into a report and sent to the development team this thread is also a chance for all players to have a say and to add things to it

It is the hope that the development team will then look into making at least some of the changes but ultimately any changes are up to them.



Yes, exactly.

Basically, the idea is to continue to push feedback to the developers as much as possible, because if they get enough feedback on an issue and it's obvious it's a problem, they're much more likely to address it.

Take, for instance, the Aim Rate/Evade Rate issue. Our server has been pushing for better Aim Rate/Evade Rate balancing for quite a while now, and Aramis mentioned during one of the meetings that other servers have also issued reports to the developers saying it was an issue for them, too. Now the developers realize that if an issue is seen as a problem across multiple servers and is repeatedly brought up by the communities playing the game, it's obviously time to take another look at that issue.

We can't promise that any specific changes will be made, but look at it this way: Several changes recommended by our community and others -- like Option Expansion being disabled in PvP, and now the Aim Rate/Evade Rate balancing -- have already happened or the developers are working on it now, meaning that they are indeed listening to what we have to say.

Regarding skill balancing among the various classes, Aramis said that the info collected from this discussion will be combined with the information collected from those class surveys we had a month or two ago, and it will all be sent to the developers for further review. The more players who make an issue of something, the greater weight the issue carries when it's pushed to the developers, so getting as much feedback as possible is critical in getting changes made.
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#34 AkatsukiKawa

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 10:34 AM

About warmages:
Could we increase the groggy on WM skills just a bit? They're totally useless at bosses.


This. WM needs skill that can fill groggy bar significantly.

And I think, poison damage (Deadly Poison) in Cloud Kill skill need to be increased. The poison right now is nothing in PvP/BSQ/EW and for end game monster. This can be increased either by changing it to %maxHP or multiply the damage like how our HP is multiplied in PvP/BSQ/EW.
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#35 DarkstalkerX

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 02:23 PM

Speaking of percentages, I want to comment on the "bleeding" status effect, and both of the gladiator/myrm's passive HP skills being fixed values, which have absolutely limited usefulness at the end of the line in gameplay. I think it goes into the people's best interest if all those skills gave an actual HP% (and I think IAH's myrms have it exactly that way on the physical training passive, aside from being able to repair weapons.) and debuffs that do a fixed continuous low damage like bleeding, burn and poison should be a percentage value, so that way not only people get to create more tactical offensive, but so people will actually BUY the status cure items from the merchant NPC.

Also, one idea... You know what one of my guildmates thought about? What if an overlord had a passive that increased your damage based on how much HP they had lost? It's a common type of skill amongst berserker type fighters, and I feel it would flesh out the concept a little more.
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#36 AkatsukiKawa

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:07 PM

Forgot to mention/remind.

After new origin, we dont have some wanted quests anymore (mostly the wanted quest of valid raeths and vellas mobs) because they are changed to lamietta/salvalon mobs. I think those quests should be brought back.

List of wanted quest that i know it cant be done anymore:
  • LavaBoom (Monks Barbarian)
  • Big Broken Barrel Bones (WMs Mana Shield)
  • Melancholy Skelemage (Warriors Ice Cold Heart)
  • Sluupe (Ninjas Katar Blocking)
  • Helmet Snail (Ninjas Throwing Dagger)

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#37 GrapefruitGod

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:23 PM

Upset Mutant Spark (Advanced Bow Master) is another
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#38 Miname

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:00 PM

Also, we need level 60 and 80 recovery potions.
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#39 DarkstalkerX

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 07:45 PM

Don't forget the higher than useful SP demand for certain 4th class passives, in submission terms.

Since it's the class I'm mostly focused on seeing change, I'll stick to overlords' 4th tree. Wind step definitely needs a reconsider: 125SP for 16% movespeed doesn't really sound beautiful. At least bloody roar, which costs 30sp x 1, is more than worth the investment.

Death grab/snatch doesn't stun properly and when it does there is usually a 1-2 second delay before the effect applies, which can be dodged with enough movespeed on the enemy somehow.

Also, one of the awakening spells (demolition charge) occasionally bugs the player into freezing on spot for an indefinite amount of seconds if you don't press Z before the animation automatically ends, alongside the fact this skill doesn't hit any harder than gust slash despite the game breaking dmg% multiplier shown in the description, and only makes the enemy flinch. You'd think something that destructive looking would at LEAST knock the enemy down or stun it.

Same for the ultimate skill of this tree: It's a complete waste of points and even myrmidon spells out damage that skill in the long run, so it needs an upgrade, and maybe it would make sense that it should also hit grounded enemies. You know what hits the same amount of enemies (20) has also less than 3 hits and does even more damage? You got it, myrmidon skill. Death bound lvl 5, has a much better debuff, can be used in pvp, hits everything and even mid air targets from lvl 3 and doesn't take a week to actually hit. (Death bound really needs to be less easily interruptable though.)

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 11 December 2011 - 07:55 PM.

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#40 Flovios

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:59 AM

Wrote in other topic, but i think it is better to write it here.

I think animation cancel in sword dance should be removed. Right now, the sword is still "being thrown" even though we can not see the sword and its trajectory (due to short animation + animation cancel + hitscan based). I think it should have longer animation, or when they cancel the animation, it should also cancel the skill (like meteor in sorcerer skill. If you move after you finished casting the meteor and all the meteor haven't fallen from the sky, the skill stop. No more meteor is falling down)
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#41 Rimmy

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 12:04 PM

Nevermind, just thought of something that would make my proposal totally imba.

Edited by Rimmy, 12 December 2011 - 12:18 PM.

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#42 zabmaru

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 02:00 PM

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask something like this, but could they PLEASE put some more thought into quests? For instance, after level 34 or something, you get the quest to do Night Lord F5, Chaos 3 maps 3 times, and F1 3 times. Once you level, you get a quest that tells you to do Night Lord FIVE more times. Why not just give me all those quests at the same time? I understand it's more exp that way, but it's just tedious and frustrating. There are quests like that everywhere, where when you think you've "cleared" an area, they give you a longer quest to go back there.
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#43 wahehehe

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:23 PM

That's an interesting idea! Maybe the overlord holds his sword in front of him like a shield and when it's hit, the attacker and defending overlord both fly back a good distance, almost like a "counter" type skill? Although that wouldn't be useful at all when it comes to being air-locked.

Also, super armor status during Wyvern Blade would be awesome.

That's certainly a creative idea for a defensive skill lol. Couldn't have thought of that myself. :P

Speaking of percentages, I want to comment on the "bleeding" status effect, and both of the gladiator/myrm's passive HP skills being fixed values, which have absolutely limited usefulness at the end of the line in gameplay. I think it goes into the people's best interest if all those skills gave an actual HP% (and I think IAH's myrms have it exactly that way on the physical training passive, aside from being able to repair weapons.) and debuffs that do a fixed continuous low damage like bleeding, burn and poison should be a percentage value, so that way not only people get to create more tactical offensive, but so people will actually BUY the status cure items from the merchant NPC.

I agree, the status debuffs should have a buff in their effectiveness. It would definitely put some use into alot of skills that aren't deemed so useful, such as the previously mentioned Cloud Kill, as well as Magnum Break and Dashing Blow. As for the hp passives, I believe they're meant to aid the lower end players who can't afford decent gear with health. As you stack on up on health, you can use your reset from job changing to spend points on your more useful skills. That aside though, it would be much more favorable to have them add a % increase instead like you mentioned.

Wrote in other topic, but i think it is better to write it here.

I think animation cancel in sword dance should be removed. Right now, the sword is still "being thrown" even though we can not see the sword and its trajectory (due to short animation + animation cancel + hitscan based). I think it should have longer animation, or when they cancel the animation, it should also cancel the skill (like meteor in sorcerer skill. If you move after you finished casting the meteor and all the meteor haven't fallen from the sky, the skill stop. No more meteor is falling down)

Agreed, the whole concept is a bit gimmicky but the SD animation cancel has been here since the launch of the game years ago. If it was such a game breaking issue I think it would've been addressed at least once, with all the major content and skill updates we have been receiving. Though to be honest, I'm still not sure if it is classified as a bug or a glitch at this point. Though it can be abusable under certain circumstances, it's been in existence long enough for players to adapt to and accept it as a general warrior catch/combo tool(mainly for glads)and this holds true in most of the other Dragon Saga/Dragonica servers, with the exception EU, iirc. Personally I'm fine with it as it is.
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#44 StormHaven

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:37 PM

Remove Parry but for God's sake do not remove Spin It Bear! :P
Are this changes 100%?


Can you give a solid reason as to why pallies need to keep spin it bear?
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#45 kenken11

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:37 PM

I agree to everything exept on this "Defense on Secmathian/Elga Sets and Paris Wings: The group generally agreed that the defense on Secmathian/Elga set pieces and Paris Wings is too high and should be lowered". It shoulnt be cuz it's a special set like bone dragon,. And this is very delicate because it affects giant amounts of IM being spent. And what do you think will happen if your big time IM buyers quit (your source of income)? Do you think the non-IM players will do? No matter how much you say this game is " free to play" it still needs funding. I tell you I know a few big time IM spenders ready to quit if this specific nerf if passed. Just saying, peace out.

Edited by kenken11, 12 December 2011 - 03:41 PM.

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#46 DarkstalkerX

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:52 PM

I want to reemphasize that myrms wouldn't need spin it bear cause it will only drag the complains to their tree. If the vertical range is actually limited and the cooldown is increased, a dragoon could be perfectly tolerable with that skill.
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#47 Miname

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:36 PM

That's certainly a creative idea for a defensive skill lol. Couldn't have thought of that myself. :P


I agree, the status debuffs should have a buff in their effectiveness. It would definitely put some use into alot of skills that aren't deemed so useful, such as the previously mentioned Cloud Kill, as well as Magnum Break and Dashing Blow. As for the hp passives, I believe they're meant to aid the lower end players who can't afford decent gear with health. As you stack on up on health, you can use your reset from job changing to spend points on your more useful skills. That aside though, it would be much more favorable to have them add a % increase instead like you mentioned.


Agreed, the whole concept is a bit gimmicky but the SD animation cancel has been here since the launch of the game years ago. If it was such a game breaking issue I think it would've been addressed at least once, with all the major content and skill updates we have been receiving. Though to be honest, I'm still not sure if it is classified as a bug or a glitch at this point. Though it can be abusable under certain circumstances, it's been in existence long enough for players to adapt to and accept it as a general warrior catch/combo tool(mainly for glads)and this holds true in most of the other Dragon Saga/Dragonica servers, with the exception EU, iirc. Personally I'm fine with it as it is.

With that logic WM skills should have remained cancelable since that's how they were initially.

Edited by Miname, 12 December 2011 - 04:37 PM.

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#48 Reikaa

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:52 PM

I agree to everything exept on this "Defense on Secmathian/Elga Sets and Paris Wings: The group generally agreed that the defense on Secmathian/Elga set pieces and Paris Wings is too high and should be lowered". It shoulnt be cuz it's a special set like bone dragon,. And this is very delicate because it affects giant amounts of IM being spent. And what do you think will happen if your big time IM buyers quit (your source of income)? Do you think the non-IM players will do? No matter how much you say this game is " free to play" it still needs funding. I tell you I know a few big time IM spenders ready to quit if this specific nerf if passed. Just saying, peace out.

Interesting fiscal argument. But still, the 9.5k def from the paris wings alone, legend +20, is a bit over the top. That's twice the average BD back, since most of them give about 4k def at +20. The nerf wouldn't be so dramatic as to bring it down to like 4k for a legend +20, but it would be more reasonable, like 6.5-7k or something for a legend +20. I'm still a little confused as to why paris wings have more defense than elga wings which is much harder to get.

Also, these are just suggestions, whether or not the devs implement them, is up to their discretion.

Edited by Reikaa, 12 December 2011 - 04:53 PM.

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#49 wahehehe

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 05:37 PM

If I remember correctly, Paris Wings give around somewhere around 8.2k defense at +20. But yeah, as things currently stand just about anyone can break 11k easily. All you need is +20 wings with a barely enchanted armor set. This just leads to everyone reaching insane amounts of def with little effort, further increasing the issue of attack vs defense.The defense needs to be lowered, maybe to somewhere around 5k. This way it still stays a viable back piece that surpasses heirloom bd backs and blizzard mufflers in terms of defense, without going completely overboard.

With that logic WM skills should have remained cancelable since that's how they were initially.

My logic is that it is fine the way it is. If not, wouldn't there have been a change at the same time WM's skills were made uncancellable? What's weird is that it has been left unchanged all this time. If it was that large of a problem, wouldn't it have been fixed? If you think about it WM's skill changes seemed pretty reasonable considering they're the bulkiest class in the game not to mention they can heal. Leaving all of their spells cancellable would just result in another broken class. I can understand the same being applied to paladins, but that's a whole other issue. :P
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#50 Miname

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 06:02 PM

My logic is that it is fine the way it is. If not, wouldn't there have been a change at the same time WM's skills were made uncancellable? What's weird is that it has been left unchanged all this time. If it was that large of a problem, wouldn't it have been fixed? If you think about it WM's skill changes seemed pretty reasonable considering they're the bulkiest class in the game not to mention they can heal. Leaving all of their spells cancellable would just result in another broken class. I can understand the same being applied to paladins, but that's a whole other issue. :P

That's your opinion on WM skills. I am not claiming anything about their balance. But I would like to point out that your argument did not exist until after the nerf.
Dragoons are a completely broken class, and they must be nerfed for the sake of balance. Just because a skill existed from day one does not mean it's imbalanced. Every class has received some sort of nerf to their "original" skill set between Paris Strikes back and New Origin. Your argument is completely irrelevant, at least in this specific case.

Edited by Miname, 12 December 2011 - 06:06 PM.

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