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#51 wahehehe

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 06:41 PM

That's your opinion on WM skills. I am not claiming anything about their balance. But I would like to point out that your argument did not exist until after the nerf.
Dragoons are a completely broken class, and they must be nerfed for the sake of balance. Just because a skill existed from day one does not mean it's imbalanced. Every class has received some sort of nerf to their "original" skill set between Paris Strikes back and New Origin. Your argument is completely irrelevant, at least in this specific case.

I never said anything about WMs until you compared my previous post to how their skills were changed. I'm 100% with you that dragoons are broken and must be nerfed. My original argument was that the mechanics of the skill is fine as it is, and doesn't need to be removed. Perhaps not in the case of a dragoon as I do not know how it affects their play, I am speaking from the perspective of a Myrmidon. Again it's just my opinion on the skill. :P

Edited by wahehehe, 12 December 2011 - 06:54 PM.

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#52 Rimmy

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 06:49 PM

I agree to everything exept on this "Defense on Secmathian/Elga Sets and Paris Wings: The group generally agreed that the defense on Secmathian/Elga set pieces and Paris Wings is too high and should be lowered". It shoulnt be cuz it's a special set like bone dragon,. And this is very delicate because it affects giant amounts of IM being spent. And what do you think will happen if your big time IM buyers quit (your source of income)? Do you think the non-IM players will do? No matter how much you say this game is " free to play" it still needs funding. I tell you I know a few big time IM spenders ready to quit if this specific nerf if passed. Just saying, peace out.


To counter that, I would note that I'm pretty familiar with most of the players who were involved in this discussion and pretty much all of them fall into one of two categories: 1) They're big IM spenders, or 2) They never buy IM and simply do surveys to get all of their IM. None of them, in either category, really disagreed that these sets or the wings should have their defense lowered, IIRC.

That's not to say that they're right and the others you mention are wrong. I can understand their concerns; I've spent a considerable amount of IM on my Secmathian set, myself -- 3 of the pieces are +20. But we're not necessarily talking about nerfing the defense to the point where the IM everyone spent feels wasted. Rather, just adjusting it so that it's a bit more reasonable, specifically with regards to the Paris Wings, which I believe were the main concern. 8K+ defense from one piece of armor is just silly at this point in the game's progression, IMO.

Personally, I feel that any defense beyond 12K or so is just a luxury in PvP and really won't do much for you b/c at that point, the only time you're taking serious damage is when opponents are hitting you with critical hits. As for PvE, sure, extra defense helps in the case of the Elga fight, but if you learn Elga's attack patterns and use your skill wisely, you (usually) won't be taking enough damage for your defense to be a big issue -- not to mention, several of Elga's attacks seem specifically designed to 1-hit KO you regardless of your defense and/or health.

I think the issue raised both during this discussion and the last that was held is that exorbitantly high defense is a problem in the game in general. Perhaps the best solution would simply be to reconfigure the defense values on ALL equipment, lowering it but keeping everything on more or less the same scale it's on now. That way, the money invested on equips would still provide the same return on investment in a relative sense.

But again, it's all just conjecture and debate at this point. I'm glad you've shared this feedback, and my opinion or the opinions of the others from the meeting certainly are not the only opinions to be had on these issues -- that's why I specifically asked the GMs if I could take notes on the meeting and share the info with everyone else here on the forums. If you could encourage some of the players you have mentioned to comment here with further feedback, perhaps they could offer more creative solutions to the current attack-defense issue, if they agree that one exists.
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#53 Yurai

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 06:52 PM

I agree to everything exept on this "Defense on Secmathian/Elga Sets and Paris Wings: The group generally agreed that the defense on Secmathian/Elga set pieces and Paris Wings is too high and should be lowered". It shoulnt be cuz it's a special set like bone dragon,. And this is very delicate because it affects giant amounts of IM being spent. And what do you think will happen if your big time IM buyers quit (your source of income)? Do you think the non-IM players will do? No matter how much you say this game is " free to play" it still needs funding. I tell you I know a few big time IM spenders ready to quit if this specific nerf if passed. Just saying, peace out.


You may want to consider that people may be more inclined to stack their characters for PvP if it was more balanced. Even if they do quit, as they eventually will regardless, drawing in more customers is better for the long run. Whether or not this will happen is a different matter entirely, but it is a valid and logical possibility.
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#54 kenken12

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:32 PM

To counter that, I would note that I'm pretty familiar with most of the players who were involved in this discussion and pretty much all of them fall into one of two categories: 1) They're big IM spenders, or 2) They never buy IM and simply do surveys to get all of their IM. None of them, in either category, really disagreed that these sets or the wings should have their defense lowered, IIRC.

That's not to say that they're right and the others you mention are wrong. I can understand their concerns; I've spent a considerable amount of IM on my Secmathian set, myself -- 3 of the pieces are +20. But we're not necessarily talking about nerfing the defense to the point where the IM everyone spent feels wasted. Rather, just adjusting it so that it's a bit more reasonable, specifically with regards to the Paris Wings, which I believe were the main concern. 8K+ defense from one piece of armor is just silly at this point in the game's progression, IMO.

Personally, I feel that any defense beyond 12K or so is just a luxury in PvP and really won't do much for you b/c at that point, the only time you're taking serious damage is when opponents are hitting you with critical hits. As for PvE, sure, extra defense helps in the case of the Elga fight, but if you learn Elga's attack patterns and use your skill wisely, you (usually) won't be taking enough damage for your defense to be a big issue -- not to mention, several of Elga's attacks seem specifically designed to 1-hit KO you regardless of your defense and/or health.

I think the issue raised both during this discussion and the last that was held is that exorbitantly high defense is a problem in the game in general. Perhaps the best solution would simply be to reconfigure the defense values on ALL equipment, lowering it but keeping everything on more or less the same scale it's on now. That way, the money invested on equips would still provide the same return on investment in a relative sense.

But again, it's all just conjecture and debate at this point. I'm glad you've shared this feedback, and my opinion or the opinions of the others from the meeting certainly are not the only opinions to be had on these issues -- that's why I specifically asked the GMs if I could take notes on the meeting and share the info with everyone else here on the forums. If you could encourage some of the players you have mentioned to comment here with further feedback, perhaps they could offer more creative solutions to the current attack-defense issue, if they agree that one exists.


Right sorry, i thought the line on paris wing i put was clear. I agree that the paris wing is overpowered, i was only concerned on the secmanthian, the defence isnt really Problem, i think its just the Atk/Def in PvP is Broken, fix this and there wont be a problem on the equips.
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#55 kenken12

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:51 PM

You may want to consider that people may be more inclined to stack their characters for PvP if it was more balanced. Even if they do quit, as they eventually will regardless, drawing in more customers is better for the long run. Whether or not this will happen is a different matter entirely, but it is a valid and logical possibility.


Drawing customers i think would be a totally different matter(promotional, and advertising). And from what im witnessing from the last 3months compared from 2yrs ago in THQ, looking at the Ch1 bar, never gets full even on weekends. Back then 2yrs ago i couldnt even enter ch1 and ch2 because its most of the time full,. Im just saying that these proposal changes isnt really made for attracting new customers its totally different.

Again its not that i disagree i totally agree on alot of these changes except on that one tiny thing that i said before.
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#56 Yurai

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:48 PM

Drawing customers i think would be a totally different matter(promotional, and advertising). And from what im witnessing from the last 3months compared from 2yrs ago in THQ, looking at the Ch1 bar, never gets full even on weekends. Back then 2yrs ago i couldnt even enter ch1 and ch2 because its most of the time full,. Im just saying that these proposal changes isnt really made for attracting new customers its totally different.

Again its not that i disagree i totally agree on alot of these changes except on that one tiny thing that i said before.

Personally, I think the game was a lot more balanced and fun on THQ. It was only after all these imbalances popped up that people started quitting/taking breaks. Another alternative is that people may have gave up during the transition period from THQ to WP, but it's hard to say since it happened at the same time. I think that the current outlook on the game is that it is in fact pay to win, as demonstrated by players who have a lot of money to blow, yet don't really know how to play their classes.
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#57 kenken11

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 02:54 AM

Personally, I think the game was a lot more balanced and fun on THQ. It was only after all these imbalances popped up that people started quitting/taking breaks. Another alternative is that people may have gave up during the transition period from THQ to WP, but it's hard to say since it happened at the same time. I think that the current outlook on the game is that it is in fact pay to win, as demonstrated by players who have a lot of money to blow, yet don't really know how to play their classes.

Agreed
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#58 HavocInfinity

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 08:23 AM

I would like to see less MP cost for grenades... :P

Yes I would agree Sniping is powerful, but if you move/jump, the skill is cancelled, so in group PvP there opportunity to even use it is low. Of course some may say it is based on skill - when you use decide to use sniping, but its not like you can see when somebody is coming at you if they aren't on the screen when you decide to use sniping. Most of the time you end up cancelling ... grens don't pull off sniping every 8 seconds. They may attempt every 8 seconds though...

Of course, 1v1 is a different story and I definitely think Sniping is OP in that scenario.

I figure improving flashbang to last as long as sniping takes would be a step in the right direction... then increasing the cooldown on Sniping would be acceptable. So grens would have to use flashbang strategically to blind their enemies before pulling off a successful sniping without having to worry as much about interruption.

Oh and as for set changes, knight/pally/dragoon shouldn't have 3-piece crit damage bonus, I think it should be 6-piece like the marksman/specialist/destroyer. That said, I also think their set bonus should be somewhat similar, where the chaotic gives half as much as the glorious set, making it worthwhile getting the glorious set. On that note, I would like to mention that glorious set bonuses for most classes should be more useful (with the exception of the destroyer).

For Mages, heals should be nerfed ~ but I believe they should still be based off of the caster's HP. As it is now, a support invoker heals as much as an offensive invoker... not fair imo.

Edited by HavocInfinity, 13 December 2011 - 08:36 AM.

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#59 Miname

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 11:11 AM

I would like to see less MP cost for grenades... :P

Yes I would agree Sniping is powerful, but if you move/jump, the skill is cancelled, so in group PvP there opportunity to even use it is low. Of course some may say it is based on skill - when you use decide to use sniping, but its not like you can see when somebody is coming at you if they aren't on the screen when you decide to use sniping. Most of the time you end up cancelling ... grens don't pull off sniping every 8 seconds. They may attempt every 8 seconds though...

Of course, 1v1 is a different story and I definitely think Sniping is OP in that scenario.

I figure improving flashbang to last as long as sniping takes would be a step in the right direction... then increasing the cooldown on Sniping would be acceptable. So grens would have to use flashbang strategically to blind their enemies before pulling off a successful sniping without having to worry as much about interruption.

Oh and as for set changes, knight/pally/dragoon shouldn't have 3-piece crit damage bonus, I think it should be 6-piece like the marksman/specialist/destroyer. That said, I also think their set bonus should be somewhat similar, where the chaotic gives half as much as the glorious set, making it worthwhile getting the glorious set. On that note, I would like to mention that glorious set bonuses for most classes should be more useful (with the exception of the destroyer).

For Mages, heals should be nerfed ~ but I believe they should still be based off of the caster's HP. As it is now, a support invoker heals as much as an offensive invoker... not fair imo.

There's no such thing as an offense invoker anymore. I'm also pretty sure there was little difference in skill between the two "styles" in the past, besides having revive. It was nearly all gear-based.

If you're going to nerf a mage's slow heal, then warmages have better well receive some damn fine new skills as compensation.
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#60 Rimmy

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 11:38 AM

Yeah, invokers have more or less always used the same set of skills, regardless of what "style" of invoker you want to play.

And while I agree sorcerers certainly deserve to get some more new useful skills or buffs to currently useless skills, I disagree with the notion that they deserve some kind of compensation directly related to a potential Slow Heal nerf.

Slow Heal is OP and needs a universal nerf, period -- if you want to have powerful heals or be a party healer, play an invoker. IMO, if you're playing a sorcerer, you shouldn't be able to heal your entire team at all, let alone by 7.5% of your maximum HP every 3 seconds. Personally, I feel that the most sorcerers should get in the way of a healing skill is one that heals the sorcerer, alone.

What sorcerers need are more powerful skills and debuffs, especially skills that inflict both damage and status effects at the same time, IMO.
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#61 Miname

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 12:21 PM

Yeah, invokers have more or less always used the same set of skills, regardless of what "style" of invoker you want to play.

And while I agree sorcerers certainly deserve to get some more new useful skills or buffs to currently useless skills, I disagree with the notion that they deserve some kind of compensation directly related to a potential Slow Heal nerf.

Slow Heal is OP and needs a universal nerf, period -- if you want to have powerful heals or be a party healer, play an invoker. IMO, if you're playing a sorcerer, you shouldn't be able to heal your entire team at all, let alone by 7.5% of your maximum HP every 3 seconds. Personally, I feel that the most sorcerers should get in the way of a healing skill is one that heals the sorcerer, alone.

What sorcerers need are more powerful skills and debuffs, especially skills that inflict both damage and status effects at the same time, IMO.

Yes, our class is still in the dark ages in terms of skills and gameplay. We definitely need a new arsenal of skills and gear options.
I agree with not nerfing slow heal, but making it a personal healing skill instead.
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#62 DarkstalkerX

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 11:38 PM

Also, attackspeed buffs for classes that completely and unarguably do not need it. Yep, another myrmidon suggestion, kill me lol. Acceleration and quicken can totally do something else, or maybe increase the effect of certain skills like the hit rate on whirlwind/wyvern, or even boost movespeed.
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#63 Yurai

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 12:28 AM

I would like to see less MP cost for grenades... :P

Yes I would agree Sniping is powerful, but if you move/jump, the skill is cancelled, so in group PvP there opportunity to even use it is low. Of course some may say it is based on skill - when you use decide to use sniping, but its not like you can see when somebody is coming at you if they aren't on the screen when you decide to use sniping. Most of the time you end up cancelling ... grens don't pull off sniping every 8 seconds. They may attempt every 8 seconds though...

That's another issue. I feel that if we leave the cooldown as is, the skill should not get canceled except by knockdown/stuns. You should not be able to manually cancel the skill whenever you want. Preventing it from being self canceled would make it a high-risk, high-reward skill that makes you decide whether or not it's safe to use it at the moment.

Also, attackspeed buffs for classes that completely and unarguably do not need it. Yep, another myrmidon suggestion, kill me lol. Acceleration and quicken can totally do something else, or maybe increase the effect of certain skills like the hit rate on whirlwind/wyvern, or even boost movespeed.

Myrms are not the only ones who have a slew of useless attack speed stats; thieves suffer in this category as well.
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#64 DarkstalkerX

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 04:53 AM

Oh yeah, don't forget also that currently there is no benefit at ALL from HP/MP recovery% bonuses in some gear. I would no more than easily suggest that these stats improved the amount that a consumable healed the user, much like a few passives which increase potion effectiveness. I also want to reemphasize on what was said about CP. Most glorious sets should be checked for improvement regarding most classes, and most chaotic sets are just as useless except for, you guessed it, the two top tier classes and WMs.

I am a little oblivious to how good the CP sets are for the other classes but due to how little I've seen them (and I actually am YET to see them...) I say they are generally not that much better than a regular version of that set. Look at glorious 3rd job sets, like pioneer, though... It's a mid 50s CP set, gives some Str, pretty good CR for it's level, and even more critical damage than a level 75 set for the same class in the future... but the 4th job glorious sets give str, attackspeed, crit rate and HP recovery. That's three pointless stats in one set. People are still forced to stick to regular sets, where's the diversity, the different equipment builds? One really has to believe there's so much diversity, but in reality everyone is destined to wear the same thing because it's the only one that works!

Damn, to think in 3 pages the community has spoken pretty much almost everything that is wrong with the game, and it's only being resolved one problem at a year.

Edited by DarkstalkerX, 14 December 2011 - 04:54 AM.

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#65 StormHaven

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 05:58 AM

Oh yeah, don't forget also that currently there is no benefit at ALL from HP/MP recovery% bonuses in some gear. I would no more than easily suggest that these stats improved the amount that a consumable healed the user, much like a few passives which increase potion effectiveness. I also want to reemphasize on what was said about CP. Most glorious sets should be checked for improvement regarding most classes, and most chaotic sets are just as useless except for, you guessed it, the two top tier classes and WMs.

I am a little oblivious to how good the CP sets are for the other classes but due to how little I've seen them (and I actually am YET to see them...) I say they are generally not that much better than a regular version of that set. Look at glorious 3rd job sets, like pioneer, though... It's a mid 50s CP set, gives some Str, pretty good CR for it's level, and even more critical damage than a level 75 set for the same class in the future... but the 4th job glorious sets give str, attackspeed, crit rate and HP recovery. That's three pointless stats in one set. People are still forced to stick to regular sets, where's the diversity, the different equipment builds? One really has to believe there's so much diversity, but in reality everyone is destined to wear the same thing because it's the only one that works!

Damn, to think in 3 pages the community has spoken pretty much almost everything that is wrong with the game, and it's only being resolved one problem at a year.


just gonna say, sentinel's glorious sets is perfect, agi,movement,cd, aim. The only reason I don't use it is because it lacks individual piece stats.
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#66 Mosz

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 06:08 AM

increase normal attack( x spam) MM score bonus? also takes a PF 3 seconds to get a 100 combo, some heavy skill spam classes just absolutely rape the rankings with no effort whatsoever, while some have hell
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#67 Rimmy

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 10:16 AM

Oh yeah, don't forget also that currently there is no benefit at ALL from HP/MP recovery% bonuses in some gear. I would no more than easily suggest that these stats improved the amount that a consumable healed the user, much like a few passives which increase potion effectiveness.


I think your alternative is interesting, but these stats aren't as useless as you might think. You just have to be playing the right class and using the right gear to maximize the benefit -- I can achieve what is more or less limitless MP on my invoker using MP Recovery/MP Recovery Speed equipment, literally recovering MP faster than I can spend it.

Having said that, I'm all for removing these stats from set bonuses for classes that can't capitalize on them in the right way, b/c if your class can't do that, they are pretty much useless for you, then.

Edited by Rimmy, 14 December 2011 - 10:17 AM.

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#68 DarkstalkerX

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 04:57 PM

I think your alternative is interesting, but these stats aren't as useless as you might think. You just have to be playing the right class and using the right gear to maximize the benefit -- I can achieve what is more or less limitless MP on my invoker using MP Recovery/MP Recovery Speed equipment, literally recovering MP faster than I can spend it.

Having said that, I'm all for removing these stats from set bonuses for classes that can't capitalize on them in the right way, b/c if your class can't do that, they are pretty much useless for you, then.


True, that might have been a little ignorant for me to say, earlier. Perhaps that consumable effect boost could be added aside, but I support revising which classes actually need these stats. I think something like an invoker, which drops in MP very rapidly, and a gladiator, which eventually becomes a high hp, relentless damage dealer/taker in concept, would benefit from an improved version of recovery, as they all drop rapidly from both combat and skills that drain over time or just demand a lot of power at a single moment. Maybe it could even decrease the cooldown on potions if stacked enough? The goal is to make it so these type of classes which would need that sort of stat, could definitely recover faster to stay relentless in combat.
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#69 EnderW

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 05:25 PM

Something I noticed in BSQ today which needs to be fixed (most people probably know it already but to be honest I don't do BSQ much) the teams don't balance out except for at the start

meaning that if there's 2 people on red team and 1 on blue and a 4th person joins the game that is already going they can also join red team when they should be forced to join blue to balance the team.
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#70 Miname

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 06:29 PM

Something I noticed in BSQ today which needs to be fixed (most people probably know it already but to be honest I don't do BSQ much) the teams don't balance out except for at the start

meaning that if there's 2 people on red team and 1 on blue and a 4th person joins the game that is already going they can also join red team when they should be forced to join blue to balance the team.

There is a waitlist for teams. You're allowed to join any team you like until it's full, but you will not spawn until the other side has at least one less member than your current position on the waitlist.
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#71 Yurai

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:05 PM

I think the problem he's referring to is when there are people on the other team that just leave, or people who don't want to join a specific team.
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#72 Ethernal

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:28 PM

as Miname said, we, sorcerers need some improvement in gear options, because honestly i'm still going with the hero bone set; IMO, secmathian, elga and cp sets are completely USELESS at the point we need to mix completely different parts to make a viable set, rare secmathian pants option gives hlt tho, so my proposal would be; change the options in end-level sets to non-fail stats ~

Edited by Ethernal, 14 December 2011 - 07:33 PM.

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#73 hungfido

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:34 PM

I'm speaking from a Pally Point of View.

[*]Spin-It Bear: The group agreed this skill should either be moved to the Myrmidon skill tree or removed altogether. The instant cast time, infinite vertical range and Aim Rate buff on this skill also were deemed overpowered.
[*]Mega Storm Blade: The group agreed that this skill should become a passive upgrade skill in conjunction with the Storm Blade skill, rather than be its own separate skill.
If two of these get removed... at least give us a skill that can do some damage still (if you think about it our only strong attacks are Storm Blade, Mega Storm, Bear, Broom and (debatable) Rolling Ground. Taking Mega and Bear away leaves us with Storm (buffed from passive?), broom and rolling ground and rolling ground is good and all but the damage is too spread if there's a club of monsters making it useless).

[*]Block Rate: The group discussed Block Rate and the fact that it currently seems overpowered, particularly with regards to the Knight/Paladin/Dragoon classes and their skills that enhance Block Rate.

Several players said Block Rate should not be able to completely stop any attacks, and that instead perhaps it could give a % chance to ignore critical hits, or reduce the incoming damage from critical hits.

Also discussed was the possibility of limiting Block Rate % in PvP or changing the mechanics so that when stunned or frozen, a target's Block Rate is reduced to 0.

Change block to reflect damage. Imagine at level 10 Mastery, it reflects 90%, 35% of the time. Level 10 Parry makes it 100% of the time for 6 seconds with cooldown 50seconds. We take damage but also get flinched/locked. Or something like that....

OR
It would be good actually if the passive became % reflect damage, parry became invulnerable for 3 seconds with cooldown 57seconds and an additional skill to make whole party invulnerable for 5 seconds with 75second cooldown.


[*]STR/INT/HLT/AGI Balance: The group mentioned that the four main stats require a better balance, and that STR, especially, seems like a near-useless stat, thus it should be made significantly more effective.
[/list] Dear god, yes please.
STR - p. attack, crit damage, low p.def
AGI - aim, eva, CR
HLT - hlt, high p.def
Int - m. attack, mdef, mp

That being said, make weapons to be a % of attack (armor to be a % of def)
ie.
+1 = add 3% to (base) attack
+20 = add 80% to (base) attack
This makes at least 3 stats being required "more equally"... and I guess a "well balanced" player will try to have 4 stats.

I left out regen... cause I don't know much about it and it doesn't seem too emphasized in the game (yet).


[*]Defense on Secmathian/Elga Sets and Paris Wings: The group generally agreed that the defense on Secmathian/Elga set pieces and Paris Wings is too high and should be lowered to prevent defense from reaching a point where ATK/MATK values can no longer produce reasonable damage.

I think balancing stat points will balance this out as well. I don't think this is really required at this point until more adjustments to the previous things are made.

[*]Set Bonuses: The group mentioned that set bonuses seem to be all over the place in terms of usefulness, and that for better balance the lower-tier set bonuses (2-piece, 3-piece) should be made less powerful and the higher-tier ones (5-piece, 6-piece) should be made more powerful to prevent users from mixing and matching powerful lower-tier set bonuses and other special gear to achieve extreme stat stacking too easily. It was also mentioned that the developers don't seem to have enough of an understanding of what stats are useful for which classes, meaning that some classes get great set bonuses while others get bonuses that aren't very useful.
[/list] I think balancing stat points will balance this out as well. I don't think this is really required at this point until more adjustments to the previous things are made.


Edited by hungfido, 14 December 2011 - 07:49 PM.

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#74 Yurai

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 10:40 PM

@hungfido,

To address the first part, I don't think paladins should be allowed to do massive damage in the first place. It makes no sense that one warrior branch gets all the offensive skills, defensive skills, and support skills while the other branch only has a few offensive skills. At this point, myrms have a lot less offensive skills than paladins do, and to be frank, I don't think paladins deserve any compensation for reverting their skill trees back to before they were overbuffed.

Your suggestion for block rate is quite broken as well. For one, I haven't forgotten how broken revenge was to the point that no one would want to PvP a paladin at all. The change you suggested would make it act as a second revenge, and if the paladin stacked meteor earrings, the problem would be even worse. Now, not only do they soak up a ton of damage, you'll end up killing yourself before you killed the paladin.

Part of the problem is with the meteor earrings, which we have forgotten to bring up during the discussion, but those need a nerf as well. Comparatively, the eclipse earrings heal around 55% of what the meteor earrings reflect at half the rate. It doesn't require a genius to figure out that this is broken and imbalanced.

You might also want to elaborate on the enchanting part, because it seems that under the suggested system, it would be pointless to switch to a higher level weapon.

Edited by Yurai, 14 December 2011 - 10:40 PM.

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#75 hungfido

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 11:18 PM

@hungfido,

To address the first part, I don't think paladins should be allowed to do massive damage in the first place. It makes no sense that one warrior branch gets all the offensive skills, defensive skills, and support skills while the other branch only has a few offensive skills. At this point, myrms have a lot less offensive skills than paladins do, and to be frank, I don't think paladins deserve any compensation for reverting their skill trees back to before they were overbuffed.
I agree but this game doesn't require parties that much (aside from Elga/F7?) I haven't suggested anything for the other classes because I don't know what they have. But I'm just saying, if Spin and the 2nd Storm Blade is gone, at least give us one more skill that does some damage so we can solo (maybe not as fast as Myrms). It gets kinda dumb to Aerial + Blade, maybe broom/rolling.
So if the game mechanics were changed so that pallys are required for more than just the TR?... aka being able to tank and kite/aggro/etc... then giving us an extra attack skill would not have been suggested by me (all I'm saying is a role for paladin needs to be more clear as well?)


Your suggestion for block rate is quite broken as well. For one, I haven't forgotten how broken revenge was to the point that no one would want to PvP a paladin at all. The change you suggested would make it act as a second revenge, and if the paladin stacked meteor earrings, the problem would be even worse. Now, not only do they soak up a ton of damage, you'll end up killing yourself before you killed the paladin.
Well that was my quick-whim on eliminating Block. Besides, block negates dmg and any debuffs (except for that pally stun I think). Even though it's "broken" it's not as bad. And, the rate I gave may be a bit too high (don't forget I said lvl10). And as for the old revenge skill it was 100% chance to reflect 75% dmg no? If the mastery at level 10 only gives 20-35% (I don't know what range would be good...) and no block exists... that's a good enough nerf and I don't think it's broken (alone, no earrings included - if earrings included then decrease 10-25% or something).

well another solution to the block is...
passive = lower block rate
parry = reflect damage for 2 seconds, cooldown 58seconds
additional:
change barricade to aoe buff = party invincible for 3 seconds, cooldown 117seconds


Part of the problem is with the meteor earrings, which we have forgotten to bring up during the discussion, but those need a nerf as well. Comparatively, the eclipse earrings heal around 55% of what the meteor earrings reflect at half the rate. It doesn't require a genius to figure out that this is broken and imbalanced.
Oh right, meteor earrings. *sigh

You might also want to elaborate on the enchanting part, because it seems that under the suggested system, it would be pointless to switch to a higher level weapon.
Okay maybe not totally % based. But having the stats affect more of the attack/def will be a lot better than everything purely based on weapon and armor (muffler/wings for example).
ie.
lv1 weapon +1 = 1 dmg + 1% of base attack
lv1 weapon +20 = 220dmg + 10% of base attack

lv80 weapon +1 = 3000dmg + 1% of base attack
lv80 weapon +20 = 30,000dmg + 15% of base attack

and if 1str = 6dmg
then let's say at lvl80 you have 450str
that's a total of 2700base attack
then lvl80 weapon +20 and 450 str will give 30000+2700+405 = 33105. But pumping all that str will make u lose aim, eva, cr, hlt, high pdef

The math or ratios might be all unproportional (didn't work it out) but it's a the basic idea that I'm trying to explain.


Edited by hungfido, 14 December 2011 - 11:30 PM.

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