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#1 Rimmy

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 12:46 PM

Game Balance Summit - Dec. 8-9, 2011
Summary and Feedback



Greetings,

On Dec. 8 and 9, 2011, several members of the Dragon Saga community and the GMs met to discuss game balance concerns, including the following issues:

  • Class/Skill Balance
  • Stat Balance
  • Item/Equipment Balance
  • Professions Feedback
  • Miscellaneous Feedback

The community members chosen for this event were selected from among those who are most active here in the Game Balances section of the forums. Below is a summary of the specific issues discussed during the meeting. The GMs collect all of this feedback and forward it to the developers for consideration with regards to implementation of future game balance measures.

If you would like to contribute to the discussion on these issues, or suggest new ideas for game balances, please feel free to leave a comment here. Thank you in advance for your contributions, as they will help us improve gameplay for the entire community.

Please keep in mind, however, that all we can do is make suggestions to the developers. Ultimately, it is up to them to decide what changes are made to the game.

  • Class/Skill Balance

    • Warriors
      • Body Activation: A group member said this skill seems to lose its effect when changing maps, and it could not be determined if this was a glitch or intended.
      • Spin-It Bear: The group agreed this skill should either be moved to the Myrmidon skill tree or removed altogether. The instant cast time, infinite vertical range and Aim Rate buff on this skill also were deemed overpowered.
      • Mega Storm Blade: The group agreed that this skill should become a passive upgrade skill in conjunction with the Storm Blade skill, rather than be its own separate skill.
      • Barricade: The group discussed the need to nerf this skill, either by removing its ability to heal, its ability to cure, or both.
      • C*ckroach Life: A group member said this skill should be changed back it the way it used to work, restoring a character's HP up to the 40% mark, rather than healing a flat 40% HP regardless of the character's current HP.
      • Wyvern Blade: A group member mentioned that some Myrmidon/Overlord players would like to see this skill get a superarmor status.
      • Stumble: The group generally agreed that the Aim Rate debuff on this skill is too powerful, and that a potential solution would be to change it to an Evade Rate debuff, instead.
    • Archers
      • Sniping: It was agreed that the Sniping skill's cooldown is too short and needs to be increased, considering how powerful the skill is.
      • Untouchable: The group generally agreed that this skill is underpowered, considering it leaves the user at 1 HP/MP. Potential fixes included making it an instant kill or perhaps making it lower the target's HP/MP to 1, as well.
      • Tesla Coil: It was agreed that this skill's cooldown is too short, allowing players to have the AoE out indefinitely. The group said the cooldown should be increased so this is not possible.
    • Mages
      • Heals: The group discussed the fact that heals currently are too powerful in PvP, and a possible solution would be to change the mechanics so that heals are nerfed somewhat in PvP.
      • Double Shot: The group agreed that this skill should be made a passive rather than an active skill, as it was in the past, as making it active makes it a nuisance to use and is seen as an unnecessary change.
    • Thieves
      • Dexterity buff: The group discussed the need to change this buff so that two Dexterity buffs cannot stack with each other (instead, the newest casting of the buff should override and replace any existing instance of the buff).
      • Perfect Strike: It was noted that this skill is underpowered considering the long 60-second cooldown and the minimal damage it can produce.
      • Certain Kill: A group member mentioned that the passive buff "Certain Kill" seems too good to get for no cost, and that it should perhaps be a separate passive skill that requires skill points to obtain.
      • Burrow: The group discussed the notion that this skill would better serve its purpose if it had a short cooldown and duration (perhaps something like a 6-second cooldown and a 4-second duration), so that thieves could use it to dodge attacks more often instead of hiding for a prolonged amount of time. It was mentioned that this might cause issues with not having enough Burrow time to avoid certain attacks in PvE, which was countered by saying that Shadow Walk can also be used to avoid attacks.
      • Shadow Walk: The group mentioned the need to fix the current cooldown bug on this skill that allows users to use it too often.
      • Violent Blow: A group member mentioned the possibility of removing the stun from this skill, as it was deemed to be a bit too powerful.
      • Frozen Windmill/Headspin: The group discussed the fact that it seems unnecessarily overpowered for these skills to continue to rack up an infinite number of hits while the user is frozen.
      • Wood Rush: The group generally agreed that the Aim Rate debuff on this skill is unnecessarily overpowered considering the short cast time, and that a potential solution would be to change it to an Evade Rate debuff, instead.
    • Summoners
      • Mana Burn: The group discussed the need to nerf this skill, but did not go into specifics as there is a currently existing thread on this issue in the Game Balances section where much discussion already has taken place.
      • Cast Times: The group mentioned the need to lower cast times on most Summoner skills, as the current cast times leave them at a significant disadvantage in PvP if they do not rely on Mana Burn.
    • Twin Fighters
      • Cooldown Resets: The group discussed the imbalance caused by Twin Fighters' ability to reset their cooldowns using a glitch/bug, resulting in them being able to spam skills in rapid succession. Everyone agreed the glitch/bug should be fixed so that this is no longer possible.
      • Wheel of Fortune: The group generally agreed that it doesn't seem right that Twin Fighters are able to revive themselves and teammates. However, it was mentioned that the cooldown on this skill is 9 minutes, so if the cooldown reset bug/glitch is fixed, WoF might not be a big issue anymore.
  • Stat Balance

    • Aim Rate/Evade Rate: According to the GMs, the developers currently are working on addressing the issue of Aim Rate and Evade Rate to come up with potential solutions.

      GM Aramis (Nolanvoid) said, "Basically, they are aware it is an issue and are currently testing the effects of different types of changes, taking into account equipment, skills, etc., to make sure the gap (between possible Aim Rate and possible Evade Rate) doesn't create an imbalance that can't be recovered from."

      GM Hastur went on to explain that the developers have said they will make changes based on the feedback received about Aim Rate/Evade Rate, but no specific details have been released.

      In relation to the Aim Rate/Evade Rate issue, the group discussed the possibility of changing mechanics so that when a target is frozen or stunned, its Evade Rate drops to 0 or its hit rate rises to 100%, since a frozen or stunned target logically cannot evade attacks.
    • Movespeed: The group discussed the issue with certain skills that root a player to one spot -- such as Netbind -- that do not prevent a target from moving if the target has exceptionally high MSPD.
    • Block Rate: The group discussed Block Rate and the fact that it currently seems overpowered, particularly with regards to the Knight/Paladin/Dragoon classes and their skills that enhance Block Rate.

      Several players said Block Rate should not be able to completely stop any attacks, and that instead perhaps it could give a % chance to ignore critical hits, or reduce the incoming damage from critical hits.

      Also discussed was the possibility of limiting Block Rate % in PvP or changing the mechanics so that when stunned or frozen, a target's Block Rate is reduced to 0.
    • STR/INT/HLT/AGI Balance: The group mentioned that the four main stats require a better balance, and that STR, especially, seems like a near-useless stat, thus it should be made significantly more effective.
  • Item/Equipment Balance

    • Downshifted Gear: The group discussed the issue with downshifted gear and GM Aramis said it is an issue the developers currently are trying to address. When Professions were first released, it was possible to Soul Shift options from a higher-level piece of equipment onto a lower-level piece of equipment, resulting in some players who were able to shift high-level stats onto low-level equipment and Item Mall equipment. This led to extreme stat stacking that is no longer possible and results in imbalance issues.
    • Defense on Secmathian/Elga Sets and Paris Wings: The group generally agreed that the defense on Secmathian/Elga set pieces and Paris Wings is too high and should be lowered to prevent defense from reaching a point where ATK/MATK values can no longer produce reasonable damage.
    • Set Bonuses: The group mentioned that set bonuses seem to be all over the place in terms of usefulness, and that for better balance the lower-tier set bonuses (2-piece, 3-piece) should be made less powerful and the higher-tier ones (5-piece, 6-piece) should be made more powerful to prevent users from mixing and matching powerful lower-tier set bonuses and other special gear to achieve extreme stat stacking too easily. It was also mentioned that the developers don't seem to have enough of an understanding of what stats are useful for which classes, meaning that some classes get great set bonuses while others get bonuses that aren't very useful.
  • Professions Feedback

    • Materials: The group discussed the fact that currently it feels like it takes too many materials to create products using the Professions systems, following several patches since the introduction of Professions that increased the number of materials needed for Production.
    • Insurance: The group discussed the issue with insurance scrolls for the various Professions being too difficult to create due to material costs and the low number of scrolls obtained through the insurance creation process. The possibility of having a separate recipe for creating insurance scrolls was mentioned as a potential solution.
  • Miscellaneous Feedback

    • Survivability in PvP: The group discussed the fact that it can often prove difficult -- especially in high-level PvP among stacked opponents -- to take down a target due to the discrepancy between ATK/MATK and DEF/MDEF as well as the high Max HP multiplier provided in most PvP modes. Several possibilities were discussed, and the group agreed that the easiest solution would probably be to lower the HP multiplier in PvP so that players die more quickly/more often, promoting faster-paced gameplay. The group also said that as an added bonus, lower HP would make heals more reasonable in PvP.
    • Handicap Option in PvP: GM Aramis said the developers are interested in getting feedback on possible changes to the handicap option in PvP. The group agreed that probably the best solution would be for the developers to come up with a standard set of equipment that feels balanced for each class, and have the handicap option force-equip this standard set onto every character in the PvP match. The possibility of a handicap that ignores all equipment except for weapon and sets the weapon to one of a certain level (like level 25), similar to the current method of naked PvP, also was discussed.
    • Hotkey Bars: The group discussed the need for more hotkeys for skills and items, perhaps another full row of hotkeys or expanding the current bars to include more slots.
    • Infinite Aerial Recovery: The group discussed this new mechanic and generally agreed that it should have some kind of cooldown, so that players cannot use Aerial Recovery indefinitely.

Edited by Rimmy, 10 December 2011 - 12:57 PM.

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#2 Himeyasha

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 01:27 PM

In general PvM suggestion but the build up to Elga should be a bit more gradual.
You can get through most dungeons with so-so gear (+10 Gear +12-15 okay weapon) but suddenly it's +20s best gear at Elga. There should be a middle dungeon between Elga and Drakos that promotes leveling gears

BSQ
BSQ tends to be messed up by players who just stick around at high upgrades in lower bsqs I'd randomize BSQ teams so that players can't choose sides. Either that or offer a handicapped BSQ that limits player gear.

Manaburn nerf should be a simple addition of a cooldown for 5-10 seconds. It's one of the only good supportive skills for a Summoner. Players can easily fight against it by killing summoner, using a potion, or blocking their cast. I don't see the need to nerf it other than adding a little extra cool down.

Overall I think the PvM in the game particularly post base 50 should get a little more difficult and be more rewarding. Right now this game is simply too easy and doesn't feel rewarding when accomplishing levels. My personal feelings of accomplishment require insurrances. There needs to be more free content for accomplishments that doesn't focus on cash shop. I know cash shop is necessary but too much cash shop only just alienates free players who add to the paying player's experience and less free loaders also makes paying players not want to play as much.

Edited by Himeyasha, 10 December 2011 - 01:29 PM.

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#3 lipefw

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 01:45 PM

BSQ
BSQ tends to be messed up by players who just stick around at high upgrades in lower bsqs I'd randomize BSQ teams so that players can't choose sides. Either that or offer a handicapped BSQ that limits player gear.


Thats a good idea.
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#4 Nhat

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 02:13 PM

I think keeping spin it bear on pally skill tree and disable it in pvp would be fine also. At low level, I find it very usefull in pve. I do realized it's very annoying to pvp pally who just run around in circle and then spam bear; However, at low level pve it very helpful for knights.
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#5 zabmaru

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 02:37 PM

I think keeping spin it bear on pally skill tree and disable it in pvp would be fine also. At low level, I find it very usefull in pve. I do realized it's very annoying to pvp pally who just run around in circle and then spam bear; However, at low level pve it very helpful for knights.


I feel like Glads/Myrms/Overlords should have access to a non-overpowered version of Spin It Bear. Personally, I believe it should be removed from Knight trees altogether. Knights got along without it before, and maybe this would help low level knights learn to play a little better. It just seems like a crutch to me.

On Glad/Myrm/Overlord skills:
Why do we have attack speed buffs, of all things? Attack speed is incredibly useless for Glads and Myrms, and the only reason I have the Myrm attack speed buff is because I almost always play with an Invoker. Maybe the party attack speed buff could be moved to the Glad tree and the Myrm speed buff could be for movespeed, or possibly even a self-buff to speed up skills (I.E. Wyvern Blade hitting much faster).
Also, Wind Step gives a minuscule amount of movespeed for how much SP it takes. Perhaps it could give more movespeed, or require less SP? Or maybe it could, instead of affecting normal movespeed, change Bloody Roar so that it gives a substantial movespeed buff while in Bloody Roar status. After all, Burn status now gives movespeed. Why is it that when my character sets himself on fire, it doesn't work the same way? For balance sake, maybe make the defense loss during Bloody Roar work off of absolute defense instead of base.

It just seems like Myrm/Overlord's theming is silly. Hunters are masters of nature and (hurrr) hunting, Marksmen have modern technology and gadgets, Dragoons harness the power of dragons, Invokers seem to have some kind of lightning thing going on. Where do Myrms fit into all this? I understand there's some kind of blood-oath with the God of Destruction, but it seems like it's really not fleshed out at all. I feel as if Myrms should be more of a "Berserker" class to fit that bill.

Random Invoker thought:
I believe Rim proposed a separate skill a while ago, but what if Priest's Cure could dispel an enemy's buff?

Edited by zabmaru, 10 December 2011 - 02:40 PM.

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#6 Nhat

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 03:02 PM

I also think the pally's skill shield strike need to be nerf because at the moment, it seems like it have a 100% stun rate if it hit.
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#7 wahehehe

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 04:07 PM

On Glad/Myrm/Overlord skills:
Why do we have attack speed buffs, of all things? Attack speed is incredibly useless for Glads and Myrms, and the only reason I have the Myrm attack speed buff is because I almost always play with an Invoker. Maybe the party attack speed buff could be moved to the Glad tree and the Myrm speed buff could be for movespeed, or possibly even a self-buff to speed up skills (I.E. Wyvern Blade hitting much faster).
Also, Wind Step gives a minuscule amount of movespeed for how much SP it takes. Perhaps it could give more movespeed, or require less SP? Or maybe it could, instead of affecting normal movespeed, change Bloody Roar so that it gives a substantial movespeed buff while in Bloody Roar status. After all, Burn status now gives movespeed. Why is it that when my character sets himself on fire, it doesn't work the same way? For balance sake, maybe make the defense loss during Bloody Roar work off of absolute defense instead of base.


Agreed. The attack speed buffs are anything but helpful. However, getting movespeed on these skills instead seems somewhat redundant. Not to mention you can easily stack a decent amount for PvE from aram/lavalon accessories. Wind Step on the other hand, could use some changes defintely. 125 points for 16% isn't exactly a bargain. I agree with increasing the value given, or reworking it into an active skill with an increased value. As for Bloody Roar it is fine the way it is, imo. Making the def loss work with total def is just unnecessary and would cripple us in pvp. 60% def decrease is insane especially in the higher level tiers and would just result in the myrm dying in less than a few skills. (As if we don't already die fast enough to begin with.) The constant hp decrease and long cooldown is good enough to keep us from abusing it.

As for Spin it Bear, I agree it should be completely removed or at least changed to level 1 only, so it can't be abused but still retains some utility. Also I would rather not see the skill be to be moved to the myrm tree, as it would further extend our air combo, which is fine as it is. And the last thing we need is another zone/easy mode catch. We already have skills for that. Overall it's just a bit too much to give us, not that I would mind. -_-

As for the defense issue. I definitely agree that paris wings are a primary cause for that. Getting over 8k def at +20 just from one piece of gear is just wtf.

Edit: I suggest myrms should get some sort of defensive/escape skill to make up for our lack of anything. Similar to the concept of blink perhaps?

Edited by wahehehe, 10 December 2011 - 04:49 PM.

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#8 zabmaru

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 04:11 PM

Agreed. The attack speed buffs are anything but helpful. However, getting movespeed on these skills instead seems somewhat redundant. Not to mention you can easily stack a decent amount for PvE from aram/lavalon accessories. Wind Step on the other hand, could use some changes defintely. 125 points for 16% isn't exactly a bargain. I agree with increasing the value given, or reworking it into an active skill with an increased value. As for Bloody Roar it is fine the way it is, imo. Making the def loss work with total def is just unnecessary and would cripple us in pvp. 60% def decrease is insane especially in the higher level tiers and would just result in the myrm dying in less than a few skills. (As if we don't already die fast enough to begin with.) The constant hp decrease and long cooldown is good enough to keep us from abusing it.


I proposed movespeed buffs to try to differentiate Myrms from Pallies a bit more. It seems like they were thinking about Myrms being a kind of "blazing fast" berserker, but just didn't flesh it out at all. With Bloody Rage, I don't know anything about PvP, so I'll take your word for it lol.
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#9 Yurai

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 04:29 PM

In general PvM suggestion but the build up to Elga should be a bit more gradual.
You can get through most dungeons with so-so gear (+10 Gear +12-15 okay weapon) but suddenly it's +20s best gear at Elga. There should be a middle dungeon between Elga and Drakos that promotes leveling gears


Here's where I'll disagree. You can get through Elga with weapons at around +16-17 and gears at +12. While the current groups that have completed it all have +20 weapons, I can guarantee that we can complete it without these weapons. The only difference is a slightly longer time to complete the run. The most important part about Elga if your gear isn't extremely stacked is teamwork (knowing what your role is) and individual player skill (knowing when and how to dodge attacks). Being maxed out on gear gives you more leeway for error, but unless you want to be spending a large amount on potions and eggs, incorporating these basic skills allow you to save a lot on money.

Edit: Oh, and if they fix the runtime, it'll help a lot in letting lesser stacked players finish their runs.

Edited by Yurai, 10 December 2011 - 04:30 PM.

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#10 wahehehe

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 04:35 PM

I proposed movespeed buffs to try to differentiate Myrms from Pallies a bit more. It seems like they were thinking about Myrms being a kind of "blazing fast" berserker, but just didn't flesh it out at all. With Bloody Rage, I don't know anything about PvP, so I'll take your word for it lol.


I use to think the same when I first saw Wind Step, but my mind changed shortly after maxing it out. -_- I agree with you though, they do seem to emphasize that aspect with the overlord class. Also I do feel that we kinda lack mobility and unlike archers we have to give up alot of important stats in order to attain a decent amount of speed.

Edited by wahehehe, 10 December 2011 - 04:35 PM.

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#11 zabmaru

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 05:03 PM

Edit: I suggest myrms should get some sort of defensive/escape skill to make up for our lack of anything. Similar to the concept of blink perhaps?


That's an interesting idea! Maybe the overlord holds his sword in front of him like a shield and when it's hit, the attacker and defending overlord both fly back a good distance, almost like a "counter" type skill? Although that wouldn't be useful at all when it comes to being air-locked.

Also, super armor status during Wyvern Blade would be awesome.

Edited by zabmaru, 10 December 2011 - 05:21 PM.

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#12 canajew

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 05:14 PM

The only thing I disagree with is the nerf to grens. Even with this skill being as ridiculously strong as it is they are still the bottom of the barrel class hands down. I think that if grens are going to be nerfed in any way that they need some sort of catch because none of their skills atm can fill that requirement. Flash fails ninety percent of the time and people can easily walk through Gatling gun's flinch. Should they take a damage nerf they should receive some sort of catch whether it be instant cast or short animation, even something like netbind would help greatly. As it stands grens are borderline useless unless they have an ally who can lock someone down and tank enough to let the gren free roam.

Transference of Tesla coil to grens would solve a lot of problems imo.
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#13 Yurai

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 05:23 PM

The only thing I disagree with is the nerf to grens. Even with this skill being as ridiculously strong as it is they are still the bottom of the barrel class hands down. I think that if grens are going to be nerfed in any way that they need some sort of catch because none of their skills atm can fill that requirement. Flash fails ninety percent of the time and people can easily walk through Gatling gun's flinch. Should they take a damage nerf they should receive some sort of catch whether it be instant cast or short animation, even something like netbind would help greatly. As it stands grens are borderline useless unless they have an ally who can lock someone down and tank enough to let the gren free roam.

Transference of Tesla coil to grens would solve a lot of problems imo.


I don't see a problem with being able to use sniping once every 20-30 seconds. The skill is already overwhelming enough to kill someone with one use.

I don't think the problem lies within the grenadier class, but rather that the other classes have more to offer. Giving tesla to PF's certainly did not help remedy the problem. It's like comparing a myrm to a dragoon -- the amount of offensive skills that dragoons now have make it feel pointless to roll a myrm.

Edited by Yurai, 10 December 2011 - 05:24 PM.

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#14 zabmaru

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 05:31 PM

It's like comparing a myrm to a dragoon -- the amount of offensive skills that dragoons now have make it feel pointless to roll a myrm.

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#15 StormHaven

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 05:44 PM

The only thing I disagree with is the nerf to grens. Even with this skill being as ridiculously strong as it is they are still the bottom of the barrel class hands down. I think that if grens are going to be nerfed in any way that they need some sort of catch because none of their skills atm can fill that requirement. Flash fails ninety percent of the time and people can easily walk through Gatling gun's flinch. Should they take a damage nerf they should receive some sort of catch whether it be instant cast or short animation, even something like netbind would help greatly. As it stands grens are borderline useless unless they have an ally who can lock someone down and tank enough to let the gren free roam.

Transference of Tesla coil to grens would solve a lot of problems imo.


I've seen plenty of grens that can land snipings with ease and do just fine solo. The problem with Grenadiers is that they take the most skill to play, but once you get to the point where you know how to play them well they become borderline over powered with sniping. If you give grens anyy sort of catch such as tesla for example then combine it with skills like sniping,vulcan, tank you've got a class that instantly kills all of the classes without even having to try.

edit: Grens are one of the classes in games where if you add one thing they completely blow everyone out of the water, but then if you don't add it they become extremely difficult to play.

Edited by StormHaven, 10 December 2011 - 05:58 PM.

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#16 EnderW

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 05:46 PM

Just to add onto the professions part linking a thread I made in the bug report section: http://forums.warppo...940-professions

Already PMed Nolanvoid with it but probably good to get it up in here too it might be a little messy though (I wrote it up back in October in a bit of a rush) it should add a couple of things:

1. socket card issue (kinda the same as the insurance issue hard to make the item and even then might not get anything of real use from the card boxes)
2. the use of IM insurance scrolls in shifting, a change that seems to have just been thrown in by the devs without saying anything about it and it takes away from the original point of the professions which was a way to upgrade gear with some little bonuses without the use of IM (granted shifting can still be done without IM it's just the -1 and -2 enchant options that use the IM insurance)

Edited by EnderW, 10 December 2011 - 05:48 PM.

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#17 Himeyasha

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 06:09 PM

From my impression from both IAH and NA forums, you guys are some of the few people who can actually pull Elga off. If it's not about the gears then there should be more dungeons that makes players have teamwork before Elga. DS requires almost no team work in pvm. It's kinda boring.
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#18 EnderW

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 06:16 PM

What Elga really needs is buffs/heals working on both parties no matter which party you're in. (I believe this and the other Elga issues are covered with the Elga feedback survey though)
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#19 StormHaven

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 06:16 PM

From my impression from both IAH and NA forums, you guys are some of the few people who can actually pull Elga off. If it's not about the gears then there should be more dungeons that makes players have teamwork before Elga. DS requires almost no team work in pvm. It's kinda boring.


It's a combination of both honestly. You can't expect to walk into Elga's dungeon with just flat out basic un-upgraded gear and expect to do well, while at the same time the actual Elga boss fight requires everyone to work together to get the best results with minimal deaths.
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#20 Miname

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 07:11 PM

I disagree with Hime's idea on randomizing BSQ rooms. The problem with randomizing teams is that BSQ will turn into utter chaos. Matches will become even more one-sided than you can ever imagine. Currently, it takes only one or two decently skilled players with moderate gear to dominate BSQ.
By randomizing teams, you effectively remove the teamwork element from the match. You're attempting to fix one problem with another.
I guarantee you, randomizing teams will completely destroy all the fun, and the entire point of BSQ.

Here are the Problems with the current BSQ:
  • Infinite healing items. Cakes, eter pots, etc. should not be allowed. Potions and earrings are just fine.
  • Infinite air combos. Ground locking is fine so long as your teammates are competent enough to know where you are and save you.
  • Evade and block rate- Some players are still able to reach high enough evade that they cannot be hit.
  • Open maps that allow players to run in circles for the duration of the battle, avoiding enemy players while holding flags. This can be countered, but it's frustrating, and requires teamwork. [Combine this with high evade and teammates who are afk/retardd, and any decent ninja or harlequin can solo the entire room.
  • Afk players. Simple solution? The devs can implement a way to determine if a player is positioned in the base or the battlefield. After 20 seconds in the base the player gets kicked from the room.

I do not see how team randomization will help but I do support the idea of a separate handicapped battlesquare match. I would even go a step further and suggest having two battlesquare events per day: one normal, the other handicapped.


Moving on to the subject of production. Did the group discuss the silent addition of item mall insurance into enchant transfers, or the silent nerfs of the amount of output materials during the production stage, or the silent nerfs on the success rate of item expanding?
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#21 DarkstalkerX

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 07:17 PM

(Real happy about this thread!)

Adding on to the warrior part of the summary, Spin it bear can be actually a... bearable skill, to use and all. I want to input something important: The solution doesn't lie in removing the skill and even less in giving the myrmidon a skill they don't ABSOLUTELY need, because otherwise we'd just be complaining about myrms having THAT skill to abuse, instead. I believe the solution definitely lies that the infinite vertical range has to be resolved. That, and adding a little more cooldown to the skill as it is.

About stumble, here's something I said recently in another thread, to reemphasize:

Also, let me recall how Stumblebum is a destabilizing shout, and even if this game isn't based on realism: You can't just "dodge" a sound-wave. Has anyone been hit with a concussion/stun grenade in a FPS, preferably one which has recognition over being realistic, like battlefield? For a moment, your vision is impaired(aim debuff,) and you can't move well due to your body pausing to realize what in the world just hit you (stun.) Not to say again, your body is already impaired of it's senses, you definitely would have trouble landing all your strength in a hit (atk debuff.) But, if you ask me, the one way around this whole complaining about stun would perhaps be that the further away you are from the center of the shockwave(the caster,) the harder it would get to stun someone, but the debuffs could still apply.


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#22 EnderW

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 08:49 PM

RE: Stumblebum

DarkstalkerX I would then have to argue that the rogue skill provoke should be buffed as it is also a "destabilizing shout" it doesn't even 100% stun like stumble does let alone any of the de-buffs.

also I believe the idea of giving spin it bear to myrm's was because they're under powered and the original idea for the class was that it should be more powerful (than the pally, 2h sword vs 1h sword etc)

Edited by EnderW, 10 December 2011 - 08:52 PM.

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#23 EnderW

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 08:57 PM

Moving on to the subject of production. Did the group discuss the silent addition of item mall insurance into enchant transfers, or the silent nerfs of the amount of output materials during the production stage, or the silent nerfs on the success rate of item expanding?


I believe the first two issues were brought up and the first is also in the thread I made and linked but thanks for bringing up the the expand success rate as it is also an issue (might be resolved if the insurance items are made easier to get)
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#24 StormHaven

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 09:01 PM

Expansion rate was lowered with it went from 3x to 2x so the nerf was actually just rescale the rates to match the lower cap. On the old system you could easily 1.8 without using insurance which would be about a 1.5 on this new scale?

Edited by StormHaven, 10 December 2011 - 09:03 PM.

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#25 tainguyen

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 11:19 PM

Wheel of fortune is a normal twin skill, so the bug doesn't work on it correct? I never invested sp to WoF due to it being op, but from my experiance, the bug only works with the green skills (any skills your actual twin does, not yourself). Maybe changing the effect a little will make the skill more acceptable. For example, in square enix games, there are skills called final chance. If you would die, you maimtain 1 hp for that 1 atk.
I propose wof is changed to reviving but only 1 hp, and 5 sec invincibility. As lvl increase, cooldown drops a little like all twin skills, and duration of invincibilty increases. (No reviving teammates though).
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