222 replies to this topic

[zplus]

Iron, please control yourself. We're getting tired of reminding you over and over again that you don't need to make your argument personal for it to be valid. Say what you need to say without the personal attacks, please.

-1

So its ok for others to insult iron and non-vips but not ok for iron to post his/her side of the argument? So much so that you have to delete the WHOLE post? You may as well just ban all of us who do not share the same opinion as yours.

[IronPlushy]

well all i can add to this u get what u pay for if u pay nothing u get nothing that how easy it is. Then taking up the point that you are poor and still want stuff for free well excuse me but cuz your poor does that mean i wanna make the ones working there ass off to make this game run get poor also ?? Mostly what I seen in allot of mmo´s that dies is they are free to play and often never get so many players that also use the cash shop making the game cost to much to run so in the end they have to close down the game. Let say we make RO completely f2p and seeing 5000 players play it and using cash shop I would bet you would not see update so often and if the server goes down it will take longer time to get it back up cuz of the reason they would make so little cash they can not affrod to have maybe one person working on the game. I my self play on Ymir and I use to see about 600-670 players playing on that server and I been thinking. If 600 players pay 10 dollars a month that would be about 72000 dollar per year in income I wonder my self if they did not have cash shop how would they even make it go round so u can pay all the expenses just to have the game up and running believe me it´s more expensive than 72000 a year to have a mmo up running.

If your not happy with f2p play and don´t plan to waste like 10 dollar 1 month then go play another f2p or don´t play at all. 10 dollar is not much skipp dirnking a few colas or skip that hamburger and eat some real food and you shall see u can afford 10 dollars. Im unemployed my self but still can afford 10 dollar it´s called setting your prioritize.

Man today's kids thinks they shall have everything for free.

last but not least I say it again u get what u pay for. If peoples asked me to work for free I would get rely pissed.

If you are too poor to pay $7 / month then maybe just MAYBE you should either be A: going back to school and not playing games or B: looking for a ( better ) Job instead of playing games. Period. End of story. It's not the PAYING members job to support and coddle free loaders. And yes, they would be freeloaders since they are sooooooo "poor" they can't afford $7 so won't be buying KP either.

Belive me I worked for over 8 years before so I have a total understanding off value of money. As I said it´s all about setting your priority. If u can afford to play games then don´t bloody play games why should stuff be free only cuz u can not afford it ?? if 10 dollar is to much to u then you clearly need to stop laying games altogether geesh. And if u need to work 2 jobs to even afford what every u waste your cash on then your clearly doing something wrong I had one job for 8 years and I never had money problem never and the reason I don´t have a problems even after getting unemployed is called Savings and something in my country we call A-kassa that gives me half my salary for 2 years so I can live and eat and try find a new job witch I hope I will do. So set your god damn priority if u can´t afford 10 dollar and have to play for free then don´t come here and complain on the benefits a paying person gets.


One thing I learned is, do I want something I save up for it simple as that.

And that how it should be not everything in the world is free. If u want some thing u have to work or save for what u want. It is the same for me everything I ever owned sense I was 12 have I paid for my self I have saved cash or got summer job or handing out new papers. One other thing I can add is I rather spend 7-15 dollar playing a game to having fun with other peoples all over the world than spending does 7-15 dollar on candy or soda or alcohol or Junk food. For me it´s more important to play games have a fun time and get new friends than drinking my life away like allot of teenagers does today.

But as said if u want want to we a VIP player and 7-10 dollar is to much for u then u can save for it or cut of some other expenses so u can afford 7-10 dollar it´s all about priority. If u don´t wanna pay for it then u have to accept what u get simple as that can it not be.

People are just so dumb it disgusts me well I can say that my self. The fact is I dont care if u play for free or not I could care less what every u do. All im trying to say is if u play for free then u get what u get and should not complain on the stuff we who pay gets I never talked about u I talked about this topic and not about u I could careless about u.

Just bloody live with it u get stuff when u pay for it and u get less for free shall it be so f.ing hard to get that? Gessh nah I give up talking with peoples that has no understanding economy is like talking to a brick wall. Also I dont care about Amercias economy I did no put you in that situation instead of whining about money problem do something about it. If they government messed it all up then u know where to start.

Did you just insulted the United States of America and called it an ,,not developed country"? I should sue you right on the spot!

Where the hell did you get your so called ,,fact"? Got it out your .... whatever?
In fact, most of the Player COME from the USA or from EUROPE, some are from AUSTRALIA and a few from here and there.
USA isnt an non developed Country, nor is any country in Europe or Australia.

So where you got your ridiculous assumptions and numbers from?

Geeez those people now a days....

@Heim

sooooooooo +1!!! Can I build an Altar to honor you at Pron?

This is just people who don't want to spend 5-7 dollars a month complaining, the worst is when you bring up 3rd world countries. Yes cause everyone in a 3rd world country has a computer and internet. Apparently these people think you can have a company run a game, pay staff, pay fees, costs for maintenance, etc... and the company will pay and lose money to keep it free for you? I would assume most players have jobs or are in college, at the very least high school and understand how the world works. How bout this for your all people so wise with your money, spend 7 dollars less a month and invest it into a game you love playing but dont want to pay for.

This thread only makes sense to me if 90% of the population is still 5 years old.

er what? 50% american are classified as poor? if it is 50% then Americans should call themselves third world countries too LOL .

and mind you i m not sure about Americans but most Europe countries have perks once you are out of work.they would give a certain cash every month to those out of jobs depending on what position you are fired.if i m not mistaken is around 200 pounds every month*this i m not sure i m just making some numbers * i do think that Americans do have that too thats why they are called first world country

I've walked a mile before with grocery bags, about 20 pounds in each arm, to save a dollar from a bus trip. Anyone can easily spend 1 day a week to do some random work for someone and get at least 10 bucks, so hard for someone who likes the game to spend 2 hours a month doing some extra work?

Better yet, put up a post on craiglist or look through them, once a year you do a day's worth of work for someone, get 100 bucks? put 70 into a year's worth of vip, and 30 on your Ramen for the week. Too difficult?

Please say low income people looking to save, truly poor people will not have their own shelter, computer and internet.

This is not about people not being able to afford it, it's about people not wanting to spend.

i'm looking at a few of your posts, not just your one sentence, and the free game is meant for people to try it out and if they enjoy it move on to vip, pretty sure the marginal benefit is much greater then the marginal cost for it, of course the marginal benefit refering to game play

$7 a month for something you spend how many hours doing? I spend more than that on 2 drinks at the local pub. You'd spend more than that on a game of bowling. $7 for something that enhances something you're already spending a large chunk of time doing... why not?

Nobody is mad you play the game for free. Baseline access to the game is free. I know a few great non-VIP players. What I do take offense to is Heim giving 2 seconds of thought to any suggestions you have in regards to decisions made for making the company money. You aren't spending any on it, and have no intention of doing so. Nothing they do is going to change that, so your self-interest requests are far more likely to cost them money than make it for them.

Gravity isn't the RIAA or the MPAA. They don't have a ton of money. Software development is a huge undertaking, and maintenance of old code like RO is even worse. It really irks me how ungrateful so much of this community is, as though making and maintaining games isn't work. The same kind of people, I imagine, who don't tip their waiter.

That is every post I had to justify myself against. It's tiring that every time I look at this thread there's someone saying "$7, oh my god you can buy a beer at a nice bar for $7, why don't you eat more ramen, why don't you get a third job, why aren't you spending money on a free service"
or
"why do you think you deserve everything for free, why don't you tip your waiter, you're doing it wrong you're not suppose to play for free, you're ungrateful that you don't pay for what I've wasted hundreds on"

It's just epic idiocy. Everytime they say they don't care I play for free, but they sure made a hell of a lot posts, completely baffled that someone is fiscally conservative. I answered in all caps, bolded and underlined and they just could not see it.
$7? SEVEN DOLLARS, DURRRRR, DA-DURRRR, RAMEN, PUB, BOWLING, THIRD JOB DURRR.
^that's what it's like dealing with these people.

[Ralis]

-1

So its ok for others to insult iron and non-vips but not ok for iron to post his/her side of the argument? So much so that you have to delete the WHOLE post? You may as well just ban all of us who do not share the same opinion as yours.

I don't even know what the argument is about, so I couldn't tell you who I agree with. If there is a problem with a post, please report it. None of the mods have the time or desire to read every single thing that's posted in all of the forums. Someone had a problem with Iron's post and reported it, I agreed that it needed to be toned down, so I took care of it. Rather than delete the post and pretend it never existed, though, I'm fine with him editing it back to something a bit cleaner.

Iron, I understand your frustration, but you still need to keep it civil. If you feel like you're not getting anywhere, they just stop replying. Trust me, I know what arguing with a brick wall feels like, I've done it on multiple occasions. Sometimes you just have to keep your opinion and move along.

[Xellie]

Man today's kids thinks they shall have everything for free.

If you are too poor to pay $7 / month then maybe just MAYBE you should either be A: going back to school and not playing games or B: looking for a ( better ) Job instead of playing games. Period. End of story. It's not the PAYING members job to support and coddle free loaders. And yes, they would be freeloaders since they are sooooooo "poor" they can't afford $7 so won't be buying KP either.

People are just so dumb it disgusts me well I can say that my self. The fact is I dont care if u play for free or not I could care less what every u do. All im trying to say is if u play for free then u get what u get and should not complain on the stuff we who pay gets I never talked about u I talked about this topic and not about u I could careless about u.

Just bloody live with it u get stuff when u pay for it and u get less for free shall it be so f.ing hard to get that?

. It really irks me how ungrateful so much of this community is, as though making and maintaining games isn't work. The same kind of people, I imagine, who don't tip their waiter.

Why is all that stuff above ok whilst the stuff below is unacceptable?

No I didn't! Stop your bitching. Stop taking pride that you waste money at a bar. You make the dumbest argument, "why play for free when you could spend money?", oh wow holy crap, I never thought of it that way.

It just confounds me how stupid people are, you just pull these ideas out of your ass.

Enforce your standards uniformly, or gtfo and play RO.

[Inubashiri]

Honestly, lets get off the class warfare soap box. If you can't afford stuff it just is, no one will think less of you or they shouldn't be anyways. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the two systems, not to hold a measuring up to each player. Lets get on with it.

[IronPlushy]

Why is all that stuff above ok whilst the stuff below is unacceptable?




Enforce your standards uniformly, or gtfo and play RO.

Because there's 7 of you and one of me. You vilify me for not spending money on something that you people have spent hundreds, if not thousands on. You vilify me for being poor. You condescend to me. And when I defend myself from these attacks I'm always in the wrong to you. While I value managing money properly, you all value having excess money. Your lack of compassion for poor people is disgusting. Not everyone had the opportunities you had, some people are consumed by circumstances so dire that said circumstances are no longer in their control. Your answers to see this complex ever-present problems are to eat ramen and get a third job. I don't need your dime store economic lessons. I obviously know how to manage my money if I haven't spent hundreds on a single game. You somehow are baffled that someone could not have disposable income.

Edit: And these ideas that are concocted out of thin air I refer to is that people keep saying it's only $7, when I stated in all caps, bolded and underlined that I have the money, but refuse to spend it on RO. And they didn't get it, they didn't see it, they didn't understand it.

Edited by IronPlushy, 11 January 2012 - 12:07 AM.

[Skotios]

Why is all that stuff above ok whilst the stuff below is unacceptable?




Enforce your standards uniformly, or gtfo and play RO.

I actually only find the 4th one down, of the top ones unacceptable. The rest don't offend me, however the bottom two I find very offensive. Mostly because of the direct language used.

Edit: Where's the drama llama /emote??

Edited by Skotios, 11 January 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[zplus]

Because there's 7 of you and one of me. You vilify me for not spending money on something that you people have spent hundreds, if not thousands on. You vilify me for being poor. You condescend to me. And when I defend myself from these attacks I'm always in the wrong to you. While I value managing money properly, you all value having excess money. Your lack of compassion for poor people is disgusting. Not everyone had the opportunities you had, some people are consumed by circumstances so dire that said circumstances are no longer in their control. Your answers to see this complex ever-present problems are to eat ramen and get a third job. I don't need your dime store economic lessons. I obviously know how to manage my money if I haven't spent hundreds on a single game. You somehow are baffled that someone could not have disposable income.

Edit: And these ideas that are concocted out of thin air I refer to is that people keep saying it's only $7, when I stated in all caps, bolded and underlined that I have the money, but refuse to spend it on RO. And they didn't get it, they didn't see it, they didn't understand it.

You may want to use "they" instead of "you", the other person may take it personally when it wasnt him you are referring to.

I actually only find the 4th one down, of the top ones unacceptable. The rest don't offend me, however the bottom two I find very offensive. Mostly because of the direct language used.

Edit: Where's the drama llama /emote??

Those top ones he quoted are actually the less offensive stuffs.

[Xellie]

Steven, some of those are from the same post, you're ok with people being called "dumb" , "freeloaders" or that "I don't care about your opinion", I don't see calling an idea stupid any less offensive than those top posts.

Anyway ironplushy I was trying to defend you from a little overzealous modding, not actually attacking you.
Perhaps if you cared to step of the soapbox, put on your reading glasses and take a good look at the words those letters on the screen are forming, you might actually understand the point of the post.
But whilst you're blindly wielding your sword against the injustices that we call "other people's opinions" then , people with any scrap of common decency will be pushed to the point of telling you to gtfo.

[jackyan26]

If I remember correctly, non-VIPs were always able to get both quests at the same time, and that has become a 'standard' in people's minds.
Now you're lowering the bar, effectively taking something away from the players, of course people will be angry.
The idea is getting VIP would improve game play but this update gives off the inverted idea of NOT getting VIP implies penalty. This is where the problem lies.
A naive idea is to halve the amount of monsters to kill for VIP TIs, VIPs get their advantage and non-VIPs don't lose anything.

[IronPlushy]

Steven, some of those are from the same post, you're ok with people being called "dumb" , "freeloaders" or that "I don't care about your opinion", I don't see calling an idea stupid any less offensive than those top posts.

Anyway ironplushy I was trying to defend you from a little overzealous modding, not actually attacking you.
Perhaps if you cared to step of the soapbox, put on your reading glasses and take a good look at the words those letters on the screen are forming, you might actually understand the point of the post.
But whilst you're blindly wielding your sword against the injustices that we call "other people's opinions" then , people with any scrap of common decency will be pushed to the point of telling you to gtfo.

You get so used to people coming at you, you can't see when someone's defending you.

[IronPlushy]

I actually only find the 4th one down, of the top ones unacceptable. The rest don't offend me, however the bottom two I find very offensive. Mostly because of the direct language used.

Edit: Where's the drama llama /emote??

You may want to use "they" instead of "you", the other person may take it personally when it wasnt him you are referring to.



Those top ones he quoted are actually the less offensive stuffs.

You didn't think it's offensive when meoryou generalized all non-vip members as lazy freeloaders that never finished school?
Did you even read the quote?

[Hinkypunk]

[zplus]

You didn't think it's offensive when meoryou generalized all non-vip members as lazy freeloaders that never finished school?
Did you even read the quote?

Wait, is your reply directed to my post or the one above my quote? I'm confused.

Also, 9 pages and counting.

[Xellie]

If you're that emotionally invested into the topic, that you're pre-emptively defending yourself, it's time to alt+F4 the forums and kill e-things, imo.

[Anchors]

^- Especially if an apology isn't readily forthcoming...

Anyway ironplushy I was trying to defend you from a little overzealous modding, not actually attacking you.
Perhaps if you cared to step of the soapbox, put on your reading glasses and take a good look at the words those letters on the screen are forming, you might actually understand the point of the post.
But whilst you're blindly wielding your sword against the injustices that we call "other people's opinions" then , people with any scrap of common decency will be pushed to the point of telling you to gtfo.

Dun dun dunnnnn. But the sad thing is that she also tried tact (if lightly and for a somewhat brief period) after being called out by three? mods in a single topic and, because her opinions are highly polarizing* (this, perhaps, as she herself indicates, not her fault), it's just not working out. And that sucks, because I was enjoying seeing someone with thoroughly different opinions with the occasional unique idea express them diplomatically (sorta), something that should be actively encouraged on any civilized forum.

*(Also seen in this topic with a couple other posters, at least within the last three or four pages... inadvertantly provoking more drama)

*shrug*

In any case, regarding the topic, is this change with Gramps the reason we (apparently) randomly had an extra week of gapless-but-single-monster turn-ins? To try to ease the general population into getting used to having less than we had before? Because, if so, it's missing the step where we have only one monster per level range WITH gaps...

... but now we've got the insane and highly charged debate on having vs not. Is there any way to delay the changes to have a slower-paced, less angry discussion topic on the issue of Gramps? Events in the past have shown that the devs value player input on a number of topics. Show us again by closing this topic and starting another one specifically on the subject of what to do about Gramps, maybe?

<edit>Fixed a typo~
<edit2>Ninja update in the maint topic; apparently a mini-vip (very short duration, less benefits) subscription will be available by entirely in-game methods if I read it correctly.

Edited by Anchors, 11 January 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[slwl1]

i think the main point iron plushy is trying to make is everyone should not pay vip and everyone should just force gravity to make it free for everyone

*implement changes*

omg so many kapra items it is destroying the economy STOP IT or else i QUIT*

*implement changes*

oda/heim: i m sorry to announce that IRO is going to close down due to lack of funds running the server and our wage bill so the company decided to close down our operation

*ironplushy say horray no more ragnarok online*

[Skotios]

Let me elaborate. Honestly, no, I wouldn't find any of the things mentioned by you guys offensive if they had been geared toward me. Others may find it offensive, but at the same time, everyone's different and are offended by differing things. To be honest I don't really take much of any insults to heart from a group of people that I've never even met face to face before. (Aside from Xellie) But I'll always find swear words offensive. Sorry it's just how I roll. Should have made it more clear that it was just my opinion on the said examples not seeming offensive. The only time I get into heated discussions is when it's directly about the game. Side remarks and insults are just silly to me.

Take your best shot! (Note: You'll just be ignored)

But really don't please.I personally don't care but I don't want to be the cause of possibly anymore offensive material.

(And on a side note: Name calling is childish to begin with so I wouldn't even pay mind to that, calling someone's opinion dumb is just an opinion in and of itself to begin with, and stating you don't care about someone else's opinion just shows selfishness, possibly a deep insecurity, but is also that person's right to do so, thus I don't consider any of those examples as offensive! But just for the record I'm still taking college courses and my parents are helping me with some of the tuition so i AM a freeloader and I HAVEN'T finished school yet! )

Anywho *Points at update patch* Let's all just get along!

Edited by Skotios, 11 January 2012 - 01:05 AM.

[IronPlushy]

i think the main point iron plushy is trying to make is everyone should not pay vip and everyone should just force gravity to make it free for everyone

*implement changes*

omg so many kapra items it is destroying the economy STOP IT or else i QUIT*

*implement changes*

oda/heim: i m sorry to announce that IRO is going to close down due to lack of funds running the server and our wage bill so the company decided to close down our operation

*ironplushy say horray no more ragnarok online*

Did you ever see something so stupid you didn't know how to react?

[Skotios]

I'm purple. You're orange.

GAH why am i still awake I'm not supposed to be up when servers come back on!!!

Edited by Skotios, 11 January 2012 - 01:09 AM.

[adam12]

I thought the whole business concept is to attract customers and retaining them? how is iro going to attract customer when they make playing the game feel like a punishment for non-vip? that would just make potential payer leave and spread negative review to ppl they know which has 100x more impact than any good review by any vip member on here. Soon, iro population will decrease to only the vip and i cant say how long the vip will stay when they have little amount of ppls to talk and party with and also to sell their kafra shop items for zeny to nonvip. bad business.

as other have said, leave the non vip standard without the constant nerf so they can play and enjoy this game somewhat so that they would feel like inviting ppl they know to try out this game. this would actually generate more money with all the kafra shop item and all.

[AnnoDomini]

how is iro going to attract customer when they make playing the game feel like a punishment for non-vip?

as other have said, leave the non vip standard without the constant nerf so they can play and enjoy this game somewhat so that they would feel like inviting ppl they know to try out this game. this would actually generate more money with all the kafra shop item and all.

"A punishment"? I honestly hope it's just a language issue with this one.

But, second quoted line's a decent thought.

[Heimdallr]

I'm going to pause this thread until I get in tomorrow, or Oda releases it.

The thoughts here are legitimate but overall there is a bit of personal feelings being trodden upon here as it is a sensitive topic (money topics are always personal).

A statement of "some people need to be more/less XXX" is not direct and is not a personal attack, putting a name saying "heimdallr you are such a YYYY" would be personal and nearly 100% of the time would not be acceptable. The 1st case of it being general can also be bad and need moderation too, but isn't nearly as likely as the personal directed statement.


Iron and Xellie, you both have strong feelings on one side of this issue, I heard you (if that matters) you don't need to argue with the others if your only goal was to be heard. Changing someones mind will either happen once they have the information you have about it, or it will never happen, reposting and being more forceful has never worked for me. I want a bit of chilling out to happen so we can continue this discussion fresher.

The non-VIP nerf that was the original catalyst for this thread (I think) is mitigated somewhat to a solution that I'm actually pretty proud of as it ties together a lot of benefits for non-VIP users.