214 replies to this topic

[Anomy]

1 Factor I would push about why the higher level player shouldn't get drops from too low of level monsters is the idea of keeping high levels off of maps with the nubs. The nubs to the game should have some market value in that what they hunt is what you would want to get, if a 150 with a giant AOE had the same chance to get the item as the lvl 20 swordman poking mandragoras, what is the point of buying from the low leveled people?

The drop rate adjustment will get modified somewhat, but it can't go away and preserve the intended map balancing. Getting the common items is not a hard thing to fix, even in quantity.

With that comment it actual makes sense to me now basically the items with no value outside the npc shops (mud lumps from soils for example) wont appear for high lvl chars where important items (bee stings herbs ores ect) will either still drop or be available at similar rates from something else where as cards already have a drop rate of 0.01% and if you round 0.005% (-50%) to the nearest available number you get 0.01% that would keep maps like mandragoras safe for nubes and push high lvl chars to kill something like nepenthes

[Susan]

If you can't use your lvl 150 char for hunting stuff, what exactly can you do with it? delete it? because thats about the only two options once you max out.

GTFO with your single main character. The game wants you to make a few accounts full of item hunters with different levels.
You only need like 4 accounts full of gank stalkers from lv 70-99 to hunt efficently in renewal. do it!
get another 4 accounts full of 40-70 Thiefs and you are set.


Besides, i know a lot of people who are like "Wtf is a drops penalty?", and when i try to explain it they think i'm joking because it's such a ridiculous idea for Ragnarok Online.

[Pingchan]

Yeah, it's pretty bad...

I've made plans with my guild to make a new alt-guild where everyone can place their hunter characters in, all of which will be 50% taxed. Between the tax and killing themselves a bunch, we should be ok. Thank goodness for 3% death penalty for once, that'll make it a little easier.

[brokenguy]

If I remember correctly that card drop at usually .01% and they increase the card drop rate to .02% on Ymir and if they reduce drop rate is 50% it'll go back to .01%... 0.o

Likewise with weapons/gears that are low drop rate as well. example... OAB(Orc Archer Bow) drop rate is .03%x1.5 = .045 or .05% and reduce 50% = .03%... 0.o

It's a very nice weapon ofcourse there will be better weapon for a archer like the elven bow I think... that will drop from Gargoyle at lv 100.

No doubt about it that people will try to +9-+10 these... so a lot of them are going to get broken as well.


I am pretty sure that these two bows are one of the best in the game and the monster that drop it are lv 100 and lv 78. So there will be a wave of those item and then no more for a while.
Prices are going to be like a roller coaster if they keep this reduce drop rate imo.

[Talvis]

Theoretically, all the new players will keep the supply of low level gear for the older players. But, we have no freaking new players. Do we have any news on the supposed improved drop system that we're getting from kRO?

[Viri]

It makes no sense on an old game with a endgame oriented playerbase which requires an influx of low level items. It just makes no sense at all.

[Jatzu]

ya when you have classes that rely on item drops

you know like

Genetic, GX, and now even RK. Not being able to hunt those items due to a drop penalty sorta sucks and would prob just cause mass inflation of the items needed to use the skills they have.

Edited by Jatzu, 06 October 2010 - 04:37 AM.

[DrAzzy]

Worth noting another problem with relying on new players to hunt stuff...

New players want to get levels, less so zeny (because most of them can just buy that through the kafra shop). So they will go to a map until they level enough to go somewhere else, and then do so. They WILL NOT STICK AROUND TO HUNT ITEMS WHEN THEY CAN JUST GET ZENY WITH KAFRA POINTS! So the high level players who NEED the items will be left hunting them (despite that they are ready and willing to pay through the nose for them, but can't because the only other people hunting them are other angry high level players who NEED the item and can't find anyone to sell it to them). Look at how high a market value it takes to persuade people to start hunting knockers for thorn bucklers!

The problem is that the demographic that hunts items is the same one that doesn't have a low-mid level char to level. Even if there was an influx of new players, they would not be hunting zeny unless the kafra shop was nerfed such that people would no longer be inclined to use it as a shortcut to getting zeny.

You can do some back-of-the-envelope calculations and compare the exp charts, monster exp, and item drop rates, if you don't belive me, but the rares are not going to come into the market just from someone leveling in the optimal exp leveling range on a map unless we increase the population of new players by a factor of 10-100.

[LethalJokeChar]

Worth noting another problem with relying on new players to hunt stuff...

New players want to get levels, less so zeny (because most of them can just buy that through the kafra shop). So they will go to a map until they level enough to go somewhere else, and then do so. They WILL NOT STICK AROUND TO HUNT ITEMS WHEN THEY CAN JUST GET ZENY WITH KAFRA POINTS! So the high level players who NEED the items will be left hunting them (despite that they are ready and willing to pay through the nose for them, but can't because the only other people hunting them are other angry high level players who NEED the item and can't find anyone to sell it to them). Look at how high a market value it takes to persuade people to start hunting knockers for thorn bucklers!

The problem is that the demographic that hunts items is the same one that doesn't have a low-mid level char to level. Even if there was an influx of new players, they would not be hunting zeny unless the kafra shop was nerfed such that people would no longer be inclined to use it as a shortcut to getting zeny.

You can do some back-of-the-envelope calculations and compare the exp charts, monster exp, and item drop rates, if you don't belive me, but the rares are not going to come into the market just from someone leveling in the optimal exp leveling range on a map unless we increase the population of new players by a factor of 10-100.

That's what I've been saying the whole time. And the fact of the matter is, you'd need a LOT of new players to support a typical guild who goes through hundreds of acid bombs, glistening coats, and poison bottles each week. I can hunt about 400 stems in 2 hours with a lv 67 rogue, who practically gets double drops so... players that are actually at the "appropriate level" will not fare nearly as well. Maybe if a small group of players (who theoretically never level) farmed the stems, poison spores, bee stings, venom canines, and immortal hearts non-stop, they could support an entire guild with items.

But that doesn't happen. They have lives and actually have to sleep and do work/school. They level up and move on to other monsters. They simply WILL NOT be there to farm the quantity of items needed to be farmed, and they will quickly become one of the players who would have to "rely" on players lower level than them to farm the items. Essentially, the whole thing is like a giant failed ponzi scheme.

[danferdud]

Quick scan of ragial says there were around 90,000 WSS on sale yesterday (Oct 5th). We all know this isn't unusual either.

At the moment WSS has a decent drop rate from 3 monsters. Even assuming new players choose to level on exactly these monsters it will only be for a few lvls. Say they kill 10 monsters a minute and it takes them 10 solid hours before they move out of lvl range and move on. At around 50% drop rate that works out at 3000 items for each of the three monsters that's 9000 WSS 0-99. Say this is repeated for 0-99 trans. That's 18,000 WSS over the whole life of a new character 0-150 job 3. I think that's pretty generous with the figures and assumes every single WSS is picked up (I agree with Azzy that they won't be).

So each new character, leveling normally over their entire lifespan will yield only 1/5th of a single day's vending of WSS.

This is realllllly rough (and I know there weren't 90,000 sales in a given day) but it gives you an idea of how incorrect it is to suggest that new players could pick up the slack of this drop rate penalty. They won't even dent the demand. I think Azzy's factor of 100 is close to the mark for the amount of new players we'd need for this to work out (although I believe 100x0=0, hmmm). You'll also get even fewer nubs once they realise they will eventually be res-killing their own characters and paying $ for alts to hunt necessary items.

Are you going to make every high turnover item easily obtainable via quests? What are the fixes you mentioned? Any clues?

Players don't like it; it makes the game worse; it doesn't work for RO; please reconsider this idea.

Edited by danferdud, 06 October 2010 - 11:03 AM.

[Puppet]

sadly there trying to make changes to monster drops so it work like every other mmorpg like requiem problems with this idea are

1. The game was not made this way and alot drops needed and used are from low lvl monsters
2. It dependent on new players constantly come to ro which we dont have what so ever Which should OBVIOUS AS PLAIN DAY seeing you had server mergers to try fix the problem which does not and did not actualy fix the problem. and you spliting what left cause you open a new server which you will probably just merger again 2 year down the road if i even last that long
3. Its gona mess the economy even more then it already is (which uneeded and unwanted)
4. Gona make cards/rares and stuff even harder to hunt see most the poeple that hunt anything in game are already 99-70 or Bots and bots are non existent on premiums

you gona piss people off that need basic stuff if you keep this in place. And the providing the rest of renewal dont run off people seeing 90% people didnt even test anything on the server when it was test, and wont know jack about the core changes to the game, which to begin with it a very bad idea for any game to make such drastic core changes this late in its life. I aslo call shenanigans on iRO actually have any sorta creative rights for the server like was claimed years ago.

*Gets a camera and waits for the ragging and qqing and revolts to start*

Edited by Puppet, 07 October 2010 - 04:11 PM.

[themick]

So i killed 9 blue herbs on my lvl 35 swordy and got 1 blue herb. Is this just bad luck or the dumbest drop rate penalty idea ever?

[Neutral12]

I voted this as the worst thing that has ever happened to this game, why? This is because we NEED almost all of our drops that we get from ALL of our monsters. We need these items for quests, supplies, Hp/Sp (stats even), gears, and weapons. You can't just take these things away from your players Heimdallr. Yes, that's right, i'm pointing you and the other staff out for this one. Since this issue is basically the life and death of Ragnarok in your grasp as you know it. If drops are penalized. No, it will not solve our bot issue. No, it will not make stronger players stop going to weaker places; and no, it will not make this place a better game compared to others. Ragnarok is a great game because of the way it CURRENTLY runs. Not because of the way OTHERS run. Ragnarok is different, and this is why people choose to play here instead of others. Not only will you, the staff, be causing huge problems for our community by implementing this, even by MODIFYING this. But you're also going to lose a majority of the community. I would like to point this out now as a fore-warning. So please, listen and respect your community and kindly just dump this idea all together. Drops will not and NEVER need a nerf.

[Talvis]

People need to learn to adjust and move on. We're complaining about something we haven't really had much time to experience. Maybe hunting wont be as bad as you think it will. The current system bottoms out at 50%, that's not that bad. And .01% items probably wont be affected since they're already at system minimum. Even if we don't have a major influx of new players there's always gonna be people with adhd making new charas to play and they'll be able to use them to hunt and sell items. Remember, we actually have to play low levels now, you can't just buy level 86 through exp turn ins.
More then likely, the reason that can't flat out remove it is because kRO wont let them. And, before someone says "but jRO changed a lot," remember 2 things, Gung Ho owns over 50% of Gravity and they also have infinitely more players then we do. So, they have more pull then we do.

Edited by Talvis, 10 October 2010 - 03:02 PM.

[LethalJokeChar]

People need to learn to adjust and move on. We're complaining about something we haven't really had much time to experience. Maybe hunting wont be as bad as you think it will. The current system bottoms out at 50%, that's not that bad. And .01% items probably wont be affected since they're already at system minimum. Even if we don't have a major influx of new players there's always gonna be people with adhd making new charas to play and they'll be able to use them to hunt and sell items. Remember, we actually have to play low levels now, you can't just buy level 86 through exp turn ins.
More then likely, the reason that can't flat out remove it is because kRO wont let them. And, before someone says "but jRO changed a lot," remember 2 things, Gung Ho owns over 50% of Gravity and they also have infinitely more players then we do. So, they have more pull then we do.

Dude, I know exactly how bad it will be. If you spent 6 hours before hunting mandragoras for all your bombs, now you spend 12 hours.

That's like saying, sheesh, quit being a baby and jump in front of that bus already! You don't know how bad it's gonna be till you try it!

[Ashli]

I find it amusing that (as per usual) the GMs are completely ignoring what our opinions are on a subject that has the potential of depleting the playerbase exponentially.

You don't ask someone if you should buy the sneakers or the mary janes and then just plug your ears and go 'Lalalalalalalala' when they try to answer you.

You listen.

I love RO. I really do. It's the one game I've been able to stick with for years, even if I've never 99'd or transed or done anything special like that.

I don't want to keep hearing people call RO a dying game.

Listen to your playerbase. There are plenty of people telling you not to make this change. I've read through every page in this topic--- I know what people have said.

And yet you still just ignore us as if somehow magically Renewal will renew the playerbase and suddenly make everything okay?

It won't.

Sure, there should be a few new players. And I'll eat these words if I'm proven otherwise. I'm not saying there's no way that new players will arrive--- I'm just saying that considering our situation NOW, it seems highly unlikely that a huge amount of new players will arrive to revitalize the game.


To put it bluntly...

Get your heads out of your asses and realize that this is a crappy idea. Lord knows what kind of drugs you took before coming up with this, but you'll have to overdose me before I'll see any of the shining benefits you seem to see so clearly.

Edited by Ashli, 10 October 2010 - 08:42 PM.

[Kadelia]

Actually the GMs "ignore" most of what is said here because, although your opinions are very valid to you, and you feel that they should be heard, they are in fact just your opinions, based off of gut reactions and fear rather than actual experience with the renewal system.

I have been playing Renewal so far on Ygg (1x rates legit mode) and I have had hundreds and hundreds of poison spores, etc., half a dozen Karvos, and I wasn't even hunting for them. One of the first things I noticed is that some ingredients that dropped 45-55% pre-renewal now drop 90-100%. This means even with the 50% drop penalty, its the same as pre-renewal. Also, some of you seem to forget things like poison spores were 50% only 2-3 or so years ago, and were buffed to 90%. We did fine for many years with them at 45-50% drop and you can now. In fact-- its better that way, seeing as how in the past few years WoE has degenerated into nothing but Acid Bomb and EDP. Drop rate should be more like 5%, not 50%-100%. Cry all you want about wanting things, but it's more like a child in a grocery store throwing a fit because he wants Cocoa Puffs instead of Cherios. While it may be a valid concern to the child, the parent knows better, and "ignores" the child's opinion.

Edited by Jaye, 11 October 2010 - 05:40 AM.

[Talvis]

Actually the GMs "ignore" most of what is said here because, although your opinions are very valid to you, and you feel that they should be heard, they are in fact just your opinions, based off of gut reactions and fear rather than actual experience with the renewal system.

I have been playing Renewal so far on Ygg (1x rates legit mode) and I have had hundreds and hundreds of poison spores, etc., half a dozen Karvos, and I wasn't even hunting for them. One of the first things I noticed is that some ingredients that dropped 45-55% pre-renewal now drop 90-100%. This means even with the 50% drop penalty, its the same as pre-renewal. Also, some of you seem to forget things like poison spores were 50% only 2-3 or so years ago, and were buffed to 90%. We did fine for many years with them at 45-50% drop and you can now. In fact-- its better that way, seeing as how in the past few years WoE has degenerated into nothing but Acid Bomb and EDP. Drop rate should be more like 5%, not 50%-100%. Cry all you want about wanting things, but it's more like a child in a grocery store throwing a fit because he wants Cocoa Puffs instead of Cherios. While it may be a valid concern to the child, the parent knows better, and "ignores" the child's opinion.

But MooooooooooooooooM, you get a cool toy in Cocoa Puffs (wait, they don't put toys in cereal any more, do they) I like your analogy. Like I said, just give it time, you'll adapt.

[Neutral12]

I find it amusing that (as per usual) the GMs are completely ignoring what our opinions are on a subject that has the potential of depleting the playerbase exponentially.

You don't ask someone if you should buy the sneakers or the mary janes and then just plug your ears and go 'Lalalalalalalala' when they try to answer you.

You listen.

I love RO. I really do. It's the one game I've been able to stick with for years, even if I've never 99'd or transed or done anything special like that.

I don't want to keep hearing people call RO a dying game.

Listen to your playerbase. There are plenty of people telling you not to make this change. I've read through every page in this topic--- I know what people have said.

And yet you still just ignore us as if somehow magically Renewal will renew the playerbase and suddenly make everything okay?

It won't.

Sure, there should be a few new players. And I'll eat these words if I'm proven otherwise. I'm not saying there's no way that new players will arrive--- I'm just saying that considering our situation NOW, it seems highly unlikely that a huge amount of new players will arrive to revitalize the game.


To put it bluntly...

Get your heads out of your asses and realize that this is a crappy idea. Lord knows what kind of drugs you took before coming up with this, but you'll have to overdose me before I'll see any of the shining benefits you seem to see so clearly.

I'm on her side for this one. Also, if you think it's just her, then you forgot me, Jaye; and basically more the half of the majority for this being the worst thing on the poll.

[Viri]

I voted against it but purely for the fact that I don't see any benefit from it. It's just different for no good reason really. Just a pointless annoyance that won't accomplish anything. Sure everyone will adjust and baddies will cry about it but it seems silly to change things when it won't really have any useful effect later on or now.

[Susan]

Cry all you want about wanting things, but it's more like a child in a grocery store throwing a fit because he wants Cocoa Puffs instead of Cherios. While it may be a valid concern to the child, the parent knows better, and "ignores" the child's opinion.

except they arent our parents.

it's more like a hairdresser dyeing your hair pink and saying "well, I think it looks good!"
most people here don't like pink hair.

[Ashli]

I'm on her side for this one. Also, if you think it's just her, then you forgot me, Jaye; and basically more the half of the majority for this being the worst thing on the poll.

I appreciate it ^^

It's funny how only 2 people voted that they vehemently support the penalty, in contrast to 155 people rejecting it completely... And somehow we all know that Gravity will side with the 2, because they don't want to admit they made a bad decision. :'P

And even from those that aren't opposing or accepting it as strongly, the clear opinion is that this is a terrible idea. 4x more people on the fence said it's a bad idea.

And 77x more people strongly believe this is a plain stupid idea.

Edited by Ashli, 11 October 2010 - 08:02 AM.

[Viri]

It's not really so much a bad decision... as a, I don't understand the reasoning for it. Doesn't really make a difference to me. If the kRO folks genuinely believe it'll make a difference leave it in and repoll in 6 months. Maybe it'll actually be beneficial.

[Kadelia]

155/157 people would vote to give themselves a pay raise, even if it would eventually cause the business to fail, since they don't have the foresight or knowledge to see such things. This is why employees don't vote on their own restrictions, as they do not know what is best for them or the company, only know what they WANT.

Is this a better analogy? The hairdresser one is wrong, since you getting your way won't ruin the parlor for everyone else. Also, you have it backwards. It's more like you're saying you want shredded pink stumps coming out your head because you think it'd be cool, and your hairdresser, a professional, is trying to tell you you won't like that decision a few weeks down the line and you're throwing a tantrum and refusing to accept the sound judgement of someone who knows better than you. And yes, half of all 6 year olds sitting in that chair would make terribad decisions about their haircut. This is why we don't let 6-year-olds vote on their hairstyles.

Anyway, Viri has the right of it. Just give it some time, see how it works, then raise hell if the game is as bad as you are guessing it will be.

Edited by Jaye, 11 October 2010 - 08:16 AM.

[Ashli]

155/157 people would vote to give themselves a pay raise, even if it would eventually cause the business to fail, since they don't have the foresight or knowledge to see such things. This is why employees don't vote on their own restrictions, as they do not know what is best for them or the company, only know what they WANT.

I'm gonna start this off by saying that I don't really feel like fighting. I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. So I'm sorry, I guess? I'unno.

I would just like to point out that this is not a business, it is a game. And as for the business BEHIND the game, how would they lose money by altering--- Wait, /not/ altering--- game mechanics?

The money they would lose would be the money from the current players leaving. Sure, some of us don't know how it'll really pan out. We only know that it looks bad on paper. But from what those of us that haven't had the pleasure of playing Ygg can see, we don't like it and we don't want it. And it seems like a number of us are willing to quit should this change go through.

And if people aren't playing, they aren't paying. And if people aren't paying, then Gravity loses out on money. And we all know Gravity doesn't like to lose out on money.

Edited by Ashli, 11 October 2010 - 08:17 AM.