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New Cast Time Proposal


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Poll: New Cast Time Proposal (3 member(s) have cast votes)

How do you feel about this proposal?

  1. It's perfect. (9 votes [12.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.68%

  2. Good. Needs a little adjustment. (39 votes [54.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.93%

  3. Poor. On par with or worse than how it is now. (13 votes [18.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.31%

  4. It's completey off mark. (10 votes [14.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.08%

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#1 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 08:04 PM

I have already mentioned this before, but maybe this deserves its own topic and a poll... My suggestion involves two things to change about how renewal handles cast times.

First of all, what is the problem, pre-renewal? Instant cast is now... simply just too easy to obtain. On top of that, with certain buffs and support abilities, the effectiveness of certain skills seem to skyrocket exponentially. Obviously if mechanics for casting were not changed in SOME form for renewal, it would be even EASIER to get instant cast with increased level and stat caps. But the problem after renewal? Fixed casts are too harsh and rely on certain buffs/special undetermined gears, and seem to not only undermine efforts to achieve fast cast times, but also the classes that typically always had instant cast (like snipers, minstrels, gypsies).

The suggestion is in two parts: first, modifying the cast formula itself. There will be no "fixed" cast times, only purely variable cast times. The big difference is the formula for the cast reduction. The second part involves the nerfing of certain buffs that virtually eliminate all after-cast delay. For right now, the only thing I can think of that fits into this category is magic strings. There are other items which ALSO decrease cast delay... generally they are not too significant. Keil-D-01 Card reduces it by 30%, but it IS a mvp card. The equips which might need some smallish nerfs are the elite sniper/gunslinger suits, sniping suit, and sprint mail.

Ok, first part: the formula.

Cast time = BASE TIME * 0.992^DEX * 0.996^INT

This means that for each point of dex, .8% of the cast time is shaved off in a negative exponential manner. Or rather, for the first point of dex, you have 99.2% cast time. For the second point of dex, you have 99.2% of 99.2% of the cast time. For the third, 99.2% of 99.2% of 99.2%. Int works the same way, except it is very slightly less than half as effective, as it takes off 0.4% of cast time.

This sort of system also gives benefits for using gear, buffs, and cards that reduce cast time, because they are not rendered obsolete. For example, using the the "Magic Eyes" headgear, which reduces cast time by 10%, that is equivalent to about 13 dex or 26 int no matter how big or small your stats are. A beelzebub card will be extremely valuable, first because there will be no instant cast, and second because it would be equivalent to 44 dex or 89 int, no matter how much dex or int you already have.

Now, the above numbers -- .8% off and .4% off sound really weaksauce. Well, to try to make some sort of a compromise, that is how they are supposed to start off as. Remember, we can't just let instant (or near instant) cast be achievable just like that. Even then, by seeing the graph below, you should already be able to tell that the new formula is faster.

Posted Image

Also, notice the curves. The current renewal system has a really clunky line. First it starts off abnormally fast, giving you huge bang for you buck with lowish int and dex scores. But then it more or less becomes unproductive, and you eventually hit a brick wall and abruptly stop casting faster. The new curve starts off a bit slower, but it ultimately surpasses the old formula at about 50 int/dex. It is completely smooth and also features diminishing returns, but the effect takes longer to become a nuisance and technically, cast time could continue shrinking without bounds. Putting in just a few stats doesn't give you a boatload of effectiveness. But investing a lot of stats still could give satisfying returns, if you are up for the trade-offs.

Alright, now every time someone complains about a ridiculously long fixed cast time, some other guy has to bring up "Sacraments". In renewal, sacraments currently reduces fixed cast time by 10% per level. At level 5, it reduces the fixed cast time by 50%. The issue is, since the new system does NOT have fixed cast time, we will have to come up with a new function for sacraments. So I'd propose, to go along with this new formula that doesn't have fixed cast time, make sacraments then reduce cast time by 5% per level. At level 5, that means it reduces cast time by 25%. I know, that probably does not seem too great. You might think it is worse than suffragium, EXCEPT, I take it sacraments works for all spells cast during its duration, and the duration is very suitable. Plus it should stack with suffragium. Below is a graph showing the results when we include sacraments: renewal effects on old formula, and proposed effects on the new formula.

Posted Image

As you should be able to see... basically the renewal line is just shifted down by 1.5 seconds. The new formula, however, is reduced by 25% all throughout. It is interesting to see that in both systems where the caster has sacraments, they become much closer, although the new system is still a bit faster.

Now, here is where things should really become interesting. How about Sacraments + Magic Strings + Magic Eyes + Glorious Arcwand + Sprint Mail combo with 2x Sprint Rings? Sacraments would reduce cast time by 25%. The equips would reduce cast time by 38%. And a good stringer would reduce cast time by 50%. Ignoring how things MAY HAVE worked before, I am saying right now that gear can stack additively, but that's it. Strings, sacraments, and the gear total will have to multiply with these mechanics, giving a 23.25% cast time. I'd believe this would also have to work with renewal mechanics as well though... But let's see how the cast times fare now. :wah:

Posted Image

Is it any wonder players are so peeved at how things are now? The fixed cast time, which is supposedly all peaches n cream with sacraments STILL completely shafts players who wish to go for fast cast times. At first this new formula is hardly even half as fast with low dex and int. But then as you increase stats, the gap increasingly widens as more and more of the renewal cast time is taken up by the fixed cast time which has already been cut in half by sacraments. And think about it... you MIGHT want to lean towards thinking the cast time is way too fast now, but this IS a lot of cheese being piled on the caster. You should expect significant results.

Adjustment to Magic Strings
Alright, now seemingly the only problem with the fast cast times is the possibility of getting nearly zero after-cast delay. This is because magic strings is too imbalanced with fast cast times. Currently you get 3% reduction of after-cast per level, but then it suddenly jump up to 50% on the last level. The effects of music lessons are also quite large. So when strings and music lessons are maxed and you have around 110 int on a a minstrel, you only have 8% of the after-cast delay. This is completely borked, and is the reason why everything seems to increase exponentially because of cast times.

What we should do is the following: Each level of magic strings reduces cast delay by 2% per level. Every level. No random jumps. That brings the song, when maxed down to 80% after-cast delay. Now with music lessons? Make it 1% per level, so with maxed music lessons, we are now down to 70% after-cast delay. For INT, half the current effects. Even with 150 INT, this will then bring the after-cast delay down to 55%.

This should be far more reasonable mechanics and prevent exponential effectiveness. Also, have after-cast gear stack additively, but this total must multiply with other effects. With the glorious arcwand and sprint mail combo (2x rings), we have 70% after-cast delay. With the maxed out strings, we have 55%, for an end result of 38.5% after-cast. With 150 of dex and int, all these gears, buffs, and cheese, we'd have a .6 sec cast for meteor storm, and a 2.695 sec cooldown. So, instead of having ridiculous precasts where Hwizes unleash MS after MS in rapid succession, we would still pretty much have, at the very least, 3.295 seconds between each meteor storm. Problem solved?

Archer Classes
Another thing I would like to propose: certain archer specific skills such as FAS, Arrow Repel, Arrow Vulcan, and Falcon Assault need a different cast formula just for these classes. Make it:

Cast Time = BASE TIME * .985^DEX

50 dex - FAS: .939 sec, AR: .705 sec, AV: 1.785 sec, FA: .470 sec
100 dex - FAS: .441 sec, AR: .331 sec, AV: .838 sec, FA: .221 sec
150 dex - FAS: .207 sec, AR: .155 sec, AV: .394 sec, FA: .104 sec
200 dex - FAS: .097 sec, AR: .073 sec, AV: .185 sec, FA: .049 sec

The reason is pretty simple for this: these skills were made for classes that usually got extremely high dex, and were probably even expected to be used with NO CAST, typically. Now, well... practically everyone has cast time, but I believe certain skills like these deserve special consideration for their classes, and an enhanced cast formula.


Other Misc Nerfs
For all these other skills, the new cast formula will apply. But to balance stuff for much needed nerfs, some cast times are just made longer.

Revert to original cast times:
Bascilla
Chemical Protect (single)
Endow (all elements)
Energy Coat
Ganbetein.
Grand Cross
Gravitational Field
Magnetic Earth

Lengthened Cast times:
Acid Bomb: 2 secs
Devotion: 5 secs
Full Chemical Protect: 4 sec, just because it does all slots.
Gfist: 10 - SkillLv seconds
Slim potion pitcher: 1.8 sec
Soul Change: 5 sec
Soul Links: 2 sec
Zen: 4 sec


Ok, the idea with the lengthened cast times is: first, you would kind of expect most classes to still have reasonable cast times. However, for the most part you still want the cast time nerfed so it is more difficult to get off and balanced. However, things still cannot be as bad as they were before, as instant cast is still impossible.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 20 September 2010 - 10:06 PM.

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#2 KriztanAlizun

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 08:12 PM

I understand where you are coming from but I agree completely with the current Cast Time Formula.
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#3 Kairuni

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 08:14 PM

Very well thought out proposal. I like it. :wah:
Though it would require a few balancing changes for base cast time on some skills, you covered a lot of them!
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#4 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 08:21 PM

I really find it hard to believe you guys could have fully gotten all this in 5 minutes. I mean, the way I word things, sometimes it may be difficult. Also there are pretty charts to look at. And it IS a ton of text.

KriztanAlizun: Yes, you specifically. I know you are completely in the pro-renewal boat, but do try and look it over. If you like how renewal is now, I am hoping you might at least like this setup better.

Also, Kairuni, do you have any other specific skills in mind? I cannot remember any more at the moment.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 16 September 2010 - 08:22 PM.

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#5 Kairuni

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 08:23 PM

I'm pretty sure it's basic math, plugging in a few numbers, it's not hard to understand =p

At above: Not sure, won't really know until this is tested, if it gets tested. I have no idea what most of the cast speeds are set at currently, aswell, but -everything- feels -really slow- right now. Damage is pretty obscene at the moment, too, so not sure how that'd factor into the 3rd class skills aswell!

Edited by Kairuni, 16 September 2010 - 08:26 PM.

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#6 Hrothmund

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 08:54 PM

Current kRO one is mostly fine, but could use some adjustments to some of the 2nd class skills. Things like storm gust really dont matter if they can obtain instacast again since 3rd class skills are that much better. Other things like acid bomb/gfist really need fixed cast of some sort, whereas other stuff like DS or AV should really be instacast from the get go.
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#7 Kadelia

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:56 AM

AV should really be instacast from the get go.

^^^^ thanks in advance for implementing gravity usa
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#8 Doddler

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:15 AM

Fixed cast in and of itself is fine, it's just that they applied some pretty stupid penalties on 1st/2nd job skills. These are the ones I kind of found were an issue.

Charge Arrow: 1.5s fixed.
Chemical Protect (all): 2s fixed.
Grand Cross: 1.5s fixed, 1.5s variable.
Sacrifice: 1.5s fixed, 1.5s variable.
Slim Potion Pitcher: 1s fixed.
Ganbantein: 3s fixed.
Gravitation Field: 5s fixed.
Basilica: 9s fixed.
Energy Coat: 5s fixed.
Soul Change: 3s fixed.
All endows: 3s fixed.
All soul links: 1s
Falcon Assault: 0.5s fixed, 0.5s variable
Focus Arrow Strike: 1s fixed, 1s variable.

It's odd that they would be so harsh on 2nd job skills and so incredibly lenient on 3rd job skills. Like take Sorcerer, Earth Grave has 0 fixed cast at all, and Psychic Wave has 0.7s fixed 12s variable.

Edited by Doddler, 17 September 2010 - 06:15 AM.

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#9 Kadelia

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:22 AM

We should just follow suit with jRO and remove fixed cast on all 1st/2nd/trans job skills and let it be a 3rd job mechanic since that is where the meat and potatoes of game balance will lay in WoE/PVP/MVP from here on out.
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#10 Doddler

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:28 AM

We should just follow suit with jRO and remove fixed cast on all 1st/2nd/trans job skills and let it be a 3rd job mechanic since that is where the meat and potatoes of game balance will lay in WoE/PVP/MVP from here on out.


Sure if you want instant acid bomb, chain gfists and broken clashing spam to become more stupid than it is right now. A blanket removal of 2nd job fixed delay is dumb. I don't even really want to advocate that iRO change them because, and I apologize to the GMs for this, they aren't the greatest at balancing. I would be happy however if they would request that kRO perhaps review the breakdown of fixed cast of some 2nd job skills.
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#11 Wanderer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:58 AM

Cast time will get better as the game gets new patches, there's no need to change the formula only to change it back when new gear becomes available.
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#12 Prodigy

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:11 AM

The only thing I like about fixed casting time is it puts a hard cap to how fast casting can get. Of course, I don't agree with the blanket 20% fixed casting time adjustment they did, but I still agree with casting having a hard cap.

If I understand the proposal above with the whole ""Magic Eyes" headgear, which reduces cast time by 10%, that is equivalent to about 13 dex or 26 int no matter how big or small your stats are," thing, then a player reasonably get well above 90% cast time reduction in that new formula, which is pretty darn close to instant cast to me. It looks like your formula has a horizontal asymptote where you can't get 100% cast time reduction, but you can still get infinitely closer to it . So theoretically, people can still achieve "near instant cast".

Edited by Prodigy, 17 September 2010 - 07:14 AM.

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#13 Puppet

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:41 AM

Thinngs that dont need fixed cast time ar

TSS
Occult
Fist atlest not such brutal one 120dex and 80int base and Sacrament lvl 5 and cast is still insanely slow imo and easily breakable by getting hit, people probably just spam gates of hell which casts much faster, and proably hurt just as much if not more

Zen is slow now there no reason for giving the above such brutal fixed cast times


Arrow vulcan
Focus Arrow Shoot
Windwalker
Energycoat

Also apparently Int plays way to much role in cast reduction

120int 120 dex Agi up cast is almost 2 times faster then an 120 dex 80int that really screws over the poeple that dont need crazy ammount of int but have cast base skill like Sniper's WW,FAS ,Minstrels AV
THe only class i tested that dont really seem effect from this cast formual is a 120 dex 120 arch bishop

The number one reason why dont like these fixed castes specially on the intruptable spells is...

when you get hit you get stuck in place bug comes back into play which is extremaly annoying cause you have to move cell to fix it or cast something like ruwatch and while we on that subject

Gentle Touch Save
Windmill
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#14 Kadelia

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:41 AM

Sure if you want instant acid bomb, chain gfists and broken clashing spam to become more stupid than it is right now. A blanket removal of 2nd job fixed delay is dumb. I don't even really want to advocate that iRO change them because, and I apologize to the GMs for this, they aren't the greatest at balancing. I would be happy however if they would request that kRO perhaps review the breakdown of fixed cast of some 2nd job skills.


I really don't see the issue here as instant cast requires a lot more DEX to reach, so we're talking Creators not Biochems that are lethal with the skill, and even then, isn't the skill weaker now due to DEF reducing it and the max HP mods of 3rd jobs? The same goes for gfist and spiral. You're talking 3rd classes using these skills with instant cast, not 2nd jobs, and my understanding is the 3rd job sura skills are better in pvp/woe than gfist anyway. 2 second fixed cast zen really isn't changing the scope of MVP either.
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#15 Clogon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:24 AM

@Jaye:
Stats aren't the only way to get instant cast. There are plenty of buffs and items that does this. The complete removal of Fixed Casting time will make the AB's Sacrement (or what ever it is) skill useless.

And no on all accounts of this only being an issue for 3rds. Even if AB is reduced by Def now, it is still VERY powerful. Spiral Pierce is just as powerful on an LK as on a RK being able to deal 50k+ even with Thara and Feathered Beret. Sura's skills may be stronger than Guillotine Fist but they are much more spammable especially if you give them fast cast Zen again.

And you aren't even looking at the PVM/MVP side of things. AB can do 100k+ and Spiral in PVM can do 150k+. And none of these numbers are lexed! Under Strings Biochems and LK's can take down ANY MVP in less than a minute especially with an Priest spamming Lex.

Edited by Clogon, 17 September 2010 - 08:25 AM.

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#16 Ultimate

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:29 AM

monks get up to 15 spheres now too, so zen can be a slower can time and it works out
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#17 Whacko

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:33 AM

One would think they should nerf the overpowered 3rd class skills rather then nerfing all the existing in game skills so the 3rd class skills aren't so overbearing.
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#18 Puppet

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:34 AM

monks get up to 15 spheres now too, so zen can be a slower can time and it works out


this maybe soo for sura but i also pretty sure those 10 extra sphere dont show, it only show 5 atlest i never seen more then 5
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#19 Doddler

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:47 AM

I really don't see the issue here as instant cast requires a lot more DEX to reach


Or use any gear that reduces cast time and stand in strings.
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#20 Ultimate

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:52 AM

this maybe soo for sura but i also pretty sure those 10 extra sphere dont show, it only show 5 atlest i never seen more then 5


they're there though, you can triple cast fury to test
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#21 Doddler

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:06 AM

The spheres appear to stack overtop of each other. You can tell roughly how many spheres you have by how bright they are. 15 spheres is really obvious compared to 5.
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#22 BlackPotato

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:22 AM

Fixed cast in and of itself is fine, it's just that they applied some pretty stupid penalties on 1st/2nd job skills. These are the ones I kind of found were an issue.

Charge Arrow: 1.5s fixed.
Chemical Protect (all): 2s fixed.
Grand Cross: 1.5s fixed, 1.5s variable.
Sacrifice: 1.5s fixed, 1.5s variable.
Slim Potion Pitcher: 1s fixed.
Ganbantein: 3s fixed.
Gravitation Field: 5s fixed.
Basilica: 9s fixed.
Energy Coat: 5s fixed.
Soul Change: 3s fixed.
All endows: 3s fixed.
All soul links: 1s
Falcon Assault: 0.5s fixed, 0.5s variable
Focus Arrow Strike: 1s fixed, 1s variable.

It's odd that they would be so harsh on 2nd job skills and so incredibly lenient on 3rd job skills. Like take Sorcerer, Earth Grave has 0 fixed cast at all, and Psychic Wave has 0.7s fixed 12s variable.



Arrow vulcan >.>
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#23 Kadelia

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:56 AM

Arrow vulcan >.>

yeah it annoyed me he conveniently skipped over that one. :wah:
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#24 Trixdee

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:15 AM

4 second Arrow Vulcan DO NOT WANT
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#25 Cubical

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:22 AM

Sure if you want instant acid bomb, chain gfists and broken clashing spam to become more stupid than it is right now. A blanket removal of 2nd job fixed delay is dumb. I don't even really want to advocate that iRO change them because, and I apologize to the GMs for this, they aren't the greatest at balancing. I would be happy however if they would request that kRO perhaps review the breakdown of fixed cast of some 2nd job skills.

^^^^^^ 100% agree fix 2nd job cast time leave the rest alone
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