127 replies to this topic

[LethalJokeChar]

Lol, I was using the wrong base cast time for AV. It's now nearly half what it was. 6 base cast time to 3.8 base cast time, which means 150 dex brings it under .4 sec cast time and 200 dex brings it under .2 sec cast time.

And you know what else is funny? Let's see who can understand what is wrong with your whole DS vs Arrow vulcan argument.

Let's assume you got 182 attack speed from high amounts of dex and agi. This may be something like what you are testing on renewal now. That will be 2.78 hits a second, so you can get off that many Double Strafes a second. 2.78 x 380% = 1056.4%. You do 1056.4% of your attack a second spamming DS.

Now we go to AV. Let's assume you could even pull off an instant cast AV. However, the delay on this skill is always 3 seconds no matter what. You do 1200% of your attack with every AV, but it takes 3 seconds. So you do 400% of your attack every second.

Compare that with your dps for double strafe. Can anyone tell me why AV is being outdamaged by double strafe? Jayed? No, sorry, it isn't because of AV's cast time. It has no cast time in this example. Anyone? Extra credit if you can answer correctly.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 20 September 2010 - 10:19 PM.

[holatuwol]

Can anyone tell me why AV is being outdamaged by double strafe?

Pre-renewal, Lex Aeterna has the same cast time as 150+ DEX Arrow Vulcan and the animation delay for Arrow Vulcan is about the same as the after cast delay on Lex Aeterna, so your effective damage is 9600% over the course of twelve seconds. Post-renewal, you'd be extremely lucky if you pulled off three Arrow Vulcans in the same time frame, so 7200% over the course of twelve seconds. Renewal mechanics basically nerf the skill to 75% of its pre-renewal capability, and that's not even considering the fact that you have to phen switch or default orleans gown in order to use it effectively.

As for Double Strafe, I'm not sure why you think most minstrels or gypsies with DEX will have over 180 ASPD. Sure, you could certainly build them that way (just as you can make a low-str crit battle priest in pre-renewal mechanics), but it's fairly uncommon. ASPD will actually be closer to 170 with concentration potions since people will be using the more standard DEX/VIT builds on gypsies and minstrels. If we're generous and say 172 ASPD, that's 1.8 hits per second. Over the course of twelve seconds, that's 17 hits unlexed and 4 hits lexed for 9500%.

So pre-renewal, Arrow Vulcan outdamages Double Strafe once you factor in the fact that four slot instruments and whips have higher attack power than four slot composite bows, and also allows for use of a shield. Post-renewal you'd be stupid to use it at all.

All that said, we're comparing a first class skill with a transcendent class skill and we're finding that the first class skill completely outclasses the transcendent class skill in terms of damage. It's like arguing that skills like Rapid Smiting and Clashing Spiral should deal less damage than Bash. I imagine you're the only person who thinks implementing a cast time formula that fails to fix the underlying issue is a valid solution to the problem, especially given that it's a formula that makes no logical sense when you try to explain it to new players. "Oh, why does it work that way? To solve some random metagame problem."

Edited by holatuwol, 21 September 2010 - 07:24 AM.

[Kadelia]

Nice post, holatuwol. This guy doesn't really get it, though.

Arrow Vulcan had some great new draws for Gypsies and Minstrels after spending the first half of their life as Dancers and Bards.

Double strafe itself required AGI to augment its DPS. If you were to go into a fully defensive build (DEX/VIT) or fully supportive build (DEX/INT/VIT) you'd end up with some pretty piss-poor DPS on double strafe or Slinging Arrow/Melody Strike (permitting instant cats on slinging arrow at the very least). We're talking 16x ASPD, around 1.5 hits/second tops. With moderate AGI we're seeing around 175 aspd, with 2 hits/second. With aspd, this is around 9120% over 12 seconds (lil higher if more AGI, as a dancer can comfortably get around 178 aspd without aspd gears). Its not bad. But considering the lack of shield it really isn't a glass cannon so much as a glass nerf ball tosser compared to wizards and such. As a Gypsy, you get lexed arrow vulcan while leveling. The main advantage of this is you can wear a shield and have a fully defensive or supportive build and throw out about 9600% in 12 seconds. What all of this equates to is all the hard work of transing and attaining instant cvast gives you roughly the same dps as before, just being able to sustain it without being made of glass. This is more in-line with what a well-balanced character should be.

Pheew, that was a mouthful. Anyway, renewal hurts both the DPS and functionality of AV so much by giving it a noticeable, interruptable cast time. This makes the skill harder to use and now it is LESS DPS than double strafe. On top of that, monsters are easier and not even worth partying on, so you're not going to have lex, making AV's DPS even lower than before. There is but one use for AV in renmewal where you are grinding on desert wolves to 99. And that is to 1 shot monsters you'd otherwise be killing with 3 DS with an AGI/DEX build. This would allow someone to level similar speed with a support build which I don't see a problem with, given the scope of renewal. Giving AV a cast bar so the monster can reach you while you cast it and then interrupt you makes it useless.

Needs fixin' obviously. Your cast time formulae goes a long way toward addressing this, but I fail to see the merrit in comments like "FAS and AV are so strong it needs some cast time still 8D" which just makes you sound inexperienced.

Frankly, given how some Trans skills are behaving in the third bracket (such as clashing spiral) I don't see a reason why AV shouldn't be better, since it is a good method of performing a duet skill and still helping fight. It doesn't need to be as good as metallic sound or whatnot, it just needs to not be worthless.

Edited by Jaye, 21 September 2010 - 04:26 AM.

[Prodigy]

tl;dr past this quote:

The thing is, it is ARGUABLE, that even with the new renewal system, a wizard way before the time of trans classes would most likely have a cast time only slightly faster than a warlock with sacraments and high dex/int, cast gears.

A wizard with 131 dex (no other buffs but bless) would get a stormgust off in 1.9 seconds. A warlock with nearly the max of int and dex and the sacraments buffs would probably cast stormgust anywhere from 1.7 - 2 seconds.

So what are you gonna tell a Renewal Wizard/High Wizard? With no buffs other than Bless, they're looking at a much, much longer casting time. Who cares if a Warlock can cast Storm Gust faster than the old Wizard did? SG isn't even a strong spell for Warlocks anymore. What you should compare is the SG for Wizards now and the SG for Wizards back then.

[Kadelia]

So what are you gonna tell a Renewal Wizard/High Wizard? With no buffs other than Bless, they're looking at a much, much longer casting time. Who cares if a Warlock can cast Storm Gust faster than the old Wizard did? SG isn't even a strong spell for Warlocks anymore. What you should compare is the SG for Wizards now and the SG for Wizards back then.

amen

[LethalJokeChar]

amen

What you guys don't seem to understand is that cast times HAD to increase, one way or another. Renewal did a botch job, and you can't cast faster than about 20% of the base time no matter what. I at least tried to make it better.

When you look at renewal cast times and want to demand you compare wizard back then to wizard now, that is completely stupid. It's like comparing a high wizard to a MAGICIAN now.
GAIZ, MY FROST DRIVER ON MY CHAR CAST SO SLOW AND ONLY FREEZE ONE PERSON, BUT THIS OTHER DOOD CAST THIS OTHER INSANE SKILL JUST AS FAST AND FREEZE 10 MOB! WHYYYY, SO UNFAAAAIRR.

Now people should be breezing through wiz / high wiz. Forcing yourself to continue to look at things through the eyes of an outdated class in a system DESIGNED with the idea in mind that your max base stats will be 120 and it could be possible to get 180+ in several stats, and in a system DESIGNED to be played with the more advanced classes is a rather myopic view.

Also. I will come back and "deal" with your arrow vulcan issue later. Cause no, you just don't get it.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 21 September 2010 - 10:01 AM.

[Kadelia]

I think what you fail to understand is that cast times had to be pushed down so they wouldn't be too fast on third jobs. Not to screw over 2nd jobs. In my opinion the best way to go about this is to buff the cast time or limit the damage via fixed casting (reduce or remove) on 2nd job skills on a case-by-case basis so game-play does not suffer for 2nd job characters (yes believe it or not you're supposed to have varied and fun gameplay during your 1-99 and 1-99 trans and not just 'blow through it'!).

The point is it shouldn't be miserable to play a wizard just so that warlocks are balanced.
You want people to actually use skills like energy coat, mystical amplification and storm gust as they level their high wizard. It shouldn't just be reserved for 3rd job characters to have any sort of varied or steadily improving gameplay.

Also. I will come back and "deal" with your arrow vulcan issue later. Cause no, you aren't so smart as you think you are.

Mm, nice attempt to put yourself on my level by putting me down, but you are way outclassed by people like Prodigy and I.

[LethalJokeChar]

I think what you fail to understand is that cast times had to be pushed down so they wouldn't be too fast on third jobs. Not to screw over 2nd jobs. In my opinion the best way to go about this is to buff the cast time or limit the damage via fixed casting (reduce or remove) on 2nd job skills on a case-by-case basis so game-play does not suffer for 2nd job characters (yes believe it or not you're supposed to have varied and fun gameplay during your 1-99 and 1-99 trans and not just 'blow through it'!).

The point is it shouldn't be miserable to play a wizard just so that warlocks are balanced.
You want people to actually use skills like energy coat, mystical amplification and storm gust as they level their high wizard. It shouldn't just be reserved for 3rd job characters to have any sort of varied or steadily improving gameplay.


Mm, nice attempt to put yourself on my level by putting me down, but you are way outclassed by people like Prodigy and I.

There's one big problem with all the BS you just said.

How do you deal with the fact that the more advanced classes still HAVE their old skills from previous jobs? So, you don't want leveling up as a wizard being hell. Why don't we just give them back their old formula, huh? That's what you want?

Sure, now wizards have their fast cast times again, pulling off stormgusts in around .5 - 1.0 seconds or less. So great to have them back as they were again, isn't it? Now comes the warlock job. They pull off an instant stormgust with ease even when under the effects of marsh of abyss AND quagmire. Jack frost skill, you say? BAH, that skill is for nubs! Just put the frost misty down and spam stormgust! It'll hitlock the enemies, do more overall damage, and could freeze them to boot!


What YOU have to deal with is a little thing called BALANCE. I'm sorry, but unfortunately leveling a wizard will have to include slower cast times. This, by no means, does not mean they are "miserable" because renewal was supposed to have made it a lot easier to level, including the fact that monsters have abnormally high chance to miss you anyway, plus there is a little thing called a "party" which a a wizard could join and not have to worry about slow casting time at all.

[Kadelia]

Warlock skills are significantly better dps than stormgust in fact people wear fire armor on kRO renewal because dragon breath from rune knight hurts more and SG is rarely used. Also SG freeze chance got nerfed so lvl 10 SG doesn't freeze as much as lvl 1 SG. Essentially SG is not the big dog anymore and I honestly could care less if it was instant cast. Also if any skill could live with fixed casting it'd be something like SG designed for mobbing and lvling with a priest where you don't need instant cast to use the skill effectively, especially considering its long aftercast delay and animation. You essentially corral enemies up and kill them. Even with 2 seconds cast this is still worth doing.

Frankly my previous statement stands, you should leave the balance talk to people who are informed and just work on your formula if that's what you want this thread to be about...

It seems to me you've forgotten how to enjoy this game. I did 1-99 on a dancer and 1-99 on a gypsy on iRO's renewal test server and it was balls. Leveling as a gypsy using the same build as my dancer with the same DPS as the dancer and leveling with double strafe still. Yes same dps. One of the big perks of gypsy used to be 10 more job bonus to DEX (Because it let you instant cast) but that's kind of worthless in renewal. it adds like 10-11 atk which does nothing. I get some extra stat points so I can maybe have 1 more aspd. Woo hoo. I'm just a extra special looking dancer. No enhancements whatsoever to change gameplay for me. It was NOT fun. And I cannot see how you can justify it. Snipers always had to keep using DS but they gained falcon eyes and wind walker to flee and do more damage and attack faster, and had a mob skill for emergencies and a new def-piercing skill for high-def enemies. Also lots of new crit opportunity with snping suit. Gypsy gameplay DOES NOT CHANGE IF YOU CANNOT USE AV.

Edited by Jaye, 21 September 2010 - 10:48 AM.

[LethalJokeChar]

Pre-renewal, Lex Aeterna has the same cast time as 150+ DEX Arrow Vulcan and the animation delay for Arrow Vulcan is about the same as the after cast delay on Lex Aeterna, so your effective damage is 9600% over the course of twelve seconds. Post-renewal, you'd be extremely lucky if you pulled off three Arrow Vulcans in the same time frame, so 7200% over the course of twelve seconds. Renewal mechanics basically nerf the skill to 75% of its pre-renewal capability, and that's not even considering the fact that you have to phen switch or default orleans gown in order to use it effectively.

As for Double Strafe, I'm not sure why you think most minstrels or gypsies with DEX will have over 180 ASPD. Sure, you could certainly build them that way (just as you can make a low-str crit battle priest in pre-renewal mechanics), but it's fairly uncommon. ASPD will actually be closer to 170 with concentration potions since people will be using the more standard DEX/VIT builds on gypsies and minstrels. If we're generous and say 172 ASPD, that's 1.8 hits per second. Over the course of twelve seconds, that's 17 hits unlexed and 4 hits lexed for 9500%.

So pre-renewal, Arrow Vulcan outdamages Double Strafe once you factor in the fact that four slot instruments and whips have higher attack power than four slot composite bows, and also allows for use of a shield. Post-renewal you'd be stupid to use it at all.

All that said, we're comparing a first class skill with a transcendent class skill and we're finding that the first class skill completely outclasses the transcendent class skill in terms of damage. It's like arguing that skills like Rapid Smiting and Clashing Spiral should deal less damage than Bash. I imagine you're the only person who thinks implementing a cast time formula that fails to fix the underlying issue is a valid solution to the problem, especially given that it's a formula that makes no logical sense when you try to explain it to new players. "Oh, why does it work that way? To solve some random metagame problem."

My example did not include lex aeterna. And second, I was not comparing post renewal with pre-renewal. But seriously, it was a simple scenario.

The issue is really simple: even with zero cast time, arrow vulcan is easily outdamaged by double strafe once you start investing in AGI. 4800% damage over 12 seconds for AV, and even with just 175 aspd, that is 9120% damage. Obviously when you are SOLOING AND DON'T HAVE LEX, which has been mentioned a lot by Jayed, you will do more dps with double strafe. WOW, OH EM GEE, does this mean there is some sort of a problem?

Do you understand the real issue which you are blaming as some sort of problem? No matter how much you want to whine and moan about having some cast time on Arrow Vulcan, you simply just AREN'T going to up its DPS enough anyway by completely removing it simply by virtue of the fact that DS DPS is reliant on your attack speed! I know, the current renewal cast time is still completely BS, but you are still unsatisfied with AV cast times of .2-.4 seconds? Come on! Attack speed was ALSO lowered in renewal, you know...


Finally, let's get around to mentioning lex anyway:

Once you DO throw lex in (which, by the way, I did mention but got yelled at for telling jayed "how to play her class"), assuming you time everything perfectly and do not have to wait for it at all, it turns into 9600% damage with AV and 10,640%. If you have at least 150 dex, your base attack is at least 375. Composite bow has 29 attack, and rope has 45 attack. Seriously, the rope only gives about 4% extra damage.

Of course, if you had no base agi, the DPS of DS would be much lower. HMMM... So MAYBE the thing is, the optimal skill to use heavily depends on your build! Wow, who woulda thought?

The other thing to mention is that, even if AV had slightly lower DPS than DS, the key feature about it is that it has significant BURST damage. A squishy char (even with reductions) may not be killed by you spamming DS with 175 aspd because they are constantly spamming pots. Say all it would take to kill them is 3 DS, but of course, your target can drink a white potion like 2-3 times for every DS you make.

Now, if you simply AV'd, that would one-shot them, thus killing them and giving no time to use potions. And as mentioned, AV goes really well with lex in any sort of team play, considering its burst damage nature.


So, I'm just going to summarize like this: yes, renewal horribly screwed the casting over and not only put the DPS in the toilet, but made it mostly unusable. But no, you do not need, nor deserve instant cast time. DS, for agi/dex builds, will always have a higher DPS. That is just tough, considering that AV was probably designed for support chars with little agi in mind. However, AV is already significantly improved by the constant use of lex aeterna, and whether to use DS or AV, for hybrid builds is entirely situational.

holatuwol, THIS is the underlying issue, and the formula makes perfect logical sense.

[LethalJokeChar]

Warlock skills are significantly better dps than stormgust in fact people wear fire armor on kRO renewal because dragon breath from rune knight hurts more and SG is rarely used. Also SG freeze chance got nerfed so lvl 10 SG doesn't freeze as much as lvl 1 SG. Essentially SG is not the big dog anymore and I honestly could care less if it was instant cast. Also if any skill could live with fixed casting it'd be something like SG designed for mobbing and lvling with a priest where you don't need instant cast to use the skill effectively, especially considering its long aftercast delay and animation. You essentially corral enemies up and kill them. Even with 2 seconds cast this is still worth doing.

Frankly my previous statement stands, you should leave the balance talk to people who are informed and just work on your formula if that's what you want this thread to be about...

It seems to me you've forgotten how to enjoy this game. I did 1-99 on a dancer and 1-99 on a gypsy on iRO's renewal test server and it was balls. Leveling as a gypsy using the same build as my dancer with the same DPS as the dancer and leveling with double strafe still. Yes same dps. One of the big perks of gypsy used to be 10 more job bonus to DEX (Because it let you instant cast) but that's kind of worthless in renewal. it adds like 10-11 atk which does nothing. I get some extra stat points so I can maybe have 1 more aspd. Woo hoo. I'm just a extra special looking dancer. No enhancements whatsoever to change gameplay for me. It was NOT fun. And I cannot see how you can justify it. Snipers always had to keep using DS but they gained falcon eyes and wind walker to flee and do more damage and attack faster, and had a mob skill for emergencies and a new def-piercing skill for high-def enemies. Also lots of new crit opportunity with snping suit. Gypsy gameplay DOES NOT CHANGE IF YOU CANNOT USE AV.

Your problem is that you STILL do not know what you are talking about. In many senses. First, informational... Stormgust deals 500% MATK per hit. It has 10 hits. Jack frost will deal 2500% matk, BUT, those targets in the frost misty must have been afflicted with the "freezing" status, which only has a % chance of activating anyway. HMM, let's see

You could put frost misty up and THEN do jack frost, which will do 2500% magic damage to only the guys who got the freezing status. OR, you could put frost misty up and then pull of your instant stormgust you want so bad because you think wizard sucks currently, and effectively do 5000% magic damage total, plus flinch all enemies every .5 sec, PLUS add the chance of FREEZING.

And SECOND, the way you are arguing, you still do not know what -I- stand for.

Here, let me spell it out for you. You said this:

"No enhancements whatsoever to change gameplay for me. It was NOT fun. And I cannot see how you can justify it."

What am I justifying? Whatever you are currently thinking you are completely wrong. My suggestion greatly improved arrow vulcan casting time compared to what it is in renewal right now.

Now, I advise that you just cool off and stfu for a while, because, tbh we both probably aren't reading what each other is saying carefully... well, obviously you aren't if you still think I am supporting a 2+ sec arrow vulcan cast time.

[Kadelia]

it looks like you wrote a book and then replied to yourself with another one. tl;dr. I am actually at work atm. I might read it later but tbh you're really angry and such over the fact that you are being told you are wrong. You can write as many paragraphs as you want with really bad data and 0 experience playing these classes but its not going to change the fact that you have a really distorted perception of the matter and that nobody agrees with you, because you're frankly just ranting nonsense out of spite.

Skills like AV need to be instant cast so you don't get hit by monsters while you level with it. This used to be possible on dark frames etc and allowed you to level without a ton og AGI (or ANY). The skill is pointless now, so nobody uses it. Its dropped from all builds on iRO and kRO. you are wrong. 'nuff said.

[LethalJokeChar]

it looks like you wrote a book and then replied to yourself with another one. tl;dr. I am actually at work atm. I might read it later but tbh you're really angry and such over the fact that you are being told you are wrong. You can write as many paragraphs as you want with really bad data and 0 experience playing these classes but its not going to change the fact that you have a really distorted perception of the matter and that nobody agrees with you, because you're frankly just ranting nonsense out of spite.

Skills like AV need to be instant cast so you don't get hit by monsters while you level with it. This used to be possible on dark frames etc and allowed you to level without a ton og AGI (or ANY). The skill is pointless now, so nobody uses it. Its dropped from all builds on iRO and kRO. you are wrong. 'nuff said.

So I suppose you admit you have such poor skill that you could not possibly play a gypsy/wanderer with a skill that only has a .2-.4 sec cast time with no buffs. Because you fail so hard and probably think that the goal is to be hit while the green bar is filling or do not have the sense to try and move.

Also: I have tons of experience with the wiz/hwiz class, at the very least. And it probably looks like I write book after book because I had to be responding to two people. You could save yourself the trouble and try to actually comprehend what is being said, for starters. Then that'll cut down on pointless rants.

[Heimdallr]

Look at it like this.

180aspd 170 dex

Old system = ~ 2.5 casts per second 120~150/min with a good MS.

New system = ~ 20/min

Also with instant cast there is no set up skill needed, IE being out of range of monsters smacking you in the face, it is just garbage up an SG.

The amount of damage per minute goes through the roof as you approach 0 sec cast speed.

[Kadelia]

I am pretty sure a 6x gypsy trying to use their new arrow vulcan skill does not have a 0.2 cast time with av with your system.

Also 0.4 second is pretty bad. AV was fairly unusable when tanking monsters even at 145 or so DEX pre-renewal because the cast time was around 0.2 seconds. You needed a phen to even fight. Which is silly.

Again this pretty much falls under you not knowing jack about gypsy/minstrel.

Look at it like this.

180aspd 170 dex

Old system = ~ 2.5 casts per second 120~150/min with a good MS.

New system = ~ 20/min

Also with instant cast there is no set up skill needed, IE being out of range of monsters smacking you in the face, it is just garbage up an SG.

The amount of damage per minute goes through the roof as you approach 0 sec cast speed.

SG doesn't stack and you can only have so many on the screen so this isn't exactly true.

With the lower MATK system and the nerf to +% matk rods, and the increase in max HP from 3rd job characters, SG is sort of non-threatening even with these instant cast and strings conditions in WoE. The damage is junk, this is fairly evident on kRO with people wearing fire armor. The repetition of use is sort of irrelevant as many 3rd job skills like dragon's breath and rampage blaster etc out damage SG and aren't impacted by fixed casting


The skills people have justified complains about are like, acid bomb, clashing spiral, and some others. These can have fixed casting. Nobody reasonable is screaming for these to instant cast.

Edited by Jaye, 21 September 2010 - 12:05 PM.

[Shinobi]

Everyone defends vehemently the class that they play. Fixed cast time all around is good. You can't say nerf them, just don't nerf me. Not everyone has godly gears to walk through a SG, theres a reason why they have been the precast skill for so long. It works.

Cast nerf all around is good. Adapt and try new ways to hold off invasions. Besides, the emp has tons of hp!

Edited by Shinobi, 21 September 2010 - 12:13 PM.

[Doddler]

SG doesn't stack and you can only have so many on the screen so this isn't exactly true.

Maybe not with SG, but it is true of meteor storm.

[LethalJokeChar]

Look at it like this.

180aspd 170 dex

Old system = ~ 2.5 casts per second 120~150/min with a good MS.

New system = ~ 20/min

Also with instant cast there is no set up skill needed, IE being out of range of monsters smacking you in the face, it is just garbage up an SG.

The amount of damage per minute goes through the roof as you approach 0 sec cast speed.

Heim, if anything I am trying to find a fair compromise.

2.5 casts per second... pretty hax.

.333 casts per second in renewal... kinda turns it around and makes it rubbish.


I was trying to make a suggestion that would still allow fast cast times possible, only it would take the renewal system into account, require a lot of specific gears and support, and still would not quite be as fast as it was originally.

We can say ~1.5 - 2 casts per second with the new thing I have proposed, except magic strings will also be nerfed such that you can't simply keep stacking MS's. Therefore, it isn't really ~1.5 - 2 casts per second, but rather goes back to about the rate renewal is going. The ONLY real difference is that the time spent is more on waiting for the cast delay now. Am I right to assume it's still possible to have like, zero after-cast delay in renewal? Only the cast times are nerfed?

If anything, they should have been far more lenient with cast times and cracked down on the zero-delay effect from strings.

[Heimdallr]

There are many skills/equips that cut down the "fixed" delays, so really it isn't as slow as you think. But there does need to be a limiter on how fast one can cast. Reasonably 2~3 casts were possible per second before, that is not right. Yes it took some help but walking around and just damage appears instant is not viable.

At some level there needs to be a cast bar, else there is no way of interrupting the cast which is part of the strategy. A non dex wizard shouldn't be relegated to be 7% as effective as a full dex wizard, that is too much game system bending to be good.

The times are adjustable on some level, but again, reasonable looks are what we are looking for not a "throw it out" because I don't like it scenario. AV is a skill that likely will get adjusted, because 3.4s cast at lvl 10 is odd when the lvl 1 is less than that.

[LethalJokeChar]

What you are saying isn't fair though. In old RO, which many people were happy with, build is very important. Replace what you said about dex and throw in int instead. Are you going to say it isn't fair for a no-int wizard to deal like 2% of the damage of a regular wizard? Come now. Don't tell me that is pretty much what this whole messing with weapon and magic formulas thing in renewal is about.

And there aren't many skills or equips that reduce the fixed delays. There is magic strings, which cuts it way too much. Currently I've got it suggested so it only takes 45% of the delay away. Then you have only a few equips that reduce the cast delay. Sprint mail, sprint rings, and glorious arcwands are pretty much it, and that only adds up to -30% delay. Of course you should have the item effects + other effects MULTIPLY, so that we don't get something like -75% when combined with strings. That's just about it though. There are other items, but they are less effective. Are there any more that I have missed? And again, instead of pointing at them and saying it'll never work, you can nerf the stronger ones like sprint mail and sniper/gunner suits.

I realize that having a cast time is important, but my feeling is renewal has gone overboard. 1.5+ sec cast times with full buffs and gears/stats aimed at fast casting seems rather absurd. It's too easy to interrupt spells now... What you need is a system where instant casting is impossible, but it is still possible to get off spells fairly quickly under favorable circumstances.

[Hitotsu]

the nice thing about cast times and it being easy to stop is it encourages team play. too many people in old RO are slapping on their godly gear and being 1 man armies. its really ridiculous when 1 seasoned player can take out an entire intermediate level guild on their own. and things like fixed cast time fix that. No longer will 1 biochem in strings wipe a guild in 10 seconds cause his guild doesnt consider money an obstical, and *blahblahblah* for the other classes aswell, you gotta rely more on others and not be superman, where the only chance anyone else has against you is being just as godly equipped as you are (which 70% of the time, its just "guild god items" anyway)

I like the cast system, but things like AV need to be tweaked.

Uniform cast delay = no
Specific cast delay = best

though I know how tedious that might be for the programmers, what with them having to understand the use for the skills and all

[LethalJokeChar]

the nice thing about cast times and it being easy to stop is it encourages team play. too many people in old RO are slapping on their godly gear and being 1 man armies. its really ridiculous when 1 seasoned player can take out an entire intermediate level guild on their own. and things like fixed cast time fix that. No longer will 1 biochem in strings wipe a guild in 10 seconds cause his guild doesnt consider money an obstical, and *blahblahblah* for the other classes aswell, you gotta rely more on others and not be superman, where the only chance anyone else has against you is being just as godly equipped as you are (which 70% of the time, its just "guild god items" anyway)

I like the cast system, but things like AV need to be tweaked.

Uniform cast delay = no
Specific cast delay = best

though I know how tedious that might be for the programmers, what with them having to understand the use for the skills and all

To that I'll just reply... if a lone biochem can take out a guild by itself, that guild is really fail. I mean cmon... pneuma?

Second, let's not forget the double megged sinxs who can pretty much one shot LKs and anyone for that matter with EDP. Or you know, if you've ever ran into a lord knight that just won't die and ends up killing everyone one by one in one way or another. Not every class was capable of being a one man army even with god items, but it certainly was not just restricted to wizards or a class reliant on cast times.

[Kadelia]

I was playing around with wanderer some more last night and even with 150+ dex and 120+ int, AV was unbearably long to cast and if I didn't have 95% flee on monsters I couldn't cast it at all while lvling. While skills like metallic sound and severe rainstorm casted much faster. With a Double Dilligent Queen's Whip I did 9k with AV and with a Rudra's Bow (a non-carded wep!) I did over 13.5k with severe rainstorm (waves of 3.3~3.5k damage). Severe rainstorm casts faster than AV and hits all enemies in a huge area. AV is useless. Problem with severe is I have to position myself, aggro enemies, and have a cast bar. So its difficult to not get hit by enemies, but not impossible. The only theoretical point to AV is if I could single target enemies, shoo them once before they reached me, and leveled safely (albeit slowly). This just isn't feasible if the enemy can bridge the distance to you while you are trying to initiate the skill and it is outright out of the question to level with a whip type weapon at all if an enemy getting within 2 cells of you means you can't cast skills anymore without a phen effect. 250% damage slinging arrow on a single target does NOT justify a phen. This skill is OBVIOUSLY an oversight in the 20/80 fixed cast system, not intended.

Wanderer skills are garbage for soloing, metallic sound does 3.5k or so damage with 120 int 150 dex, those reverbarations are nifty and do like ~9k (same as my AV! With 1/5 the cast time and no delay! I can lay like 3 of them under an enemy!) but require you to walk enemies over them which is silly for soloing. It would be really nice if AV and slinging arrow were useable when soloing~! Even with 3rd job fixed delay reductions and higher DEX/INT from being 150, you're not going to use those skills in a party, as the wanderer skills which require a party are better (i.e. severe rainstorm, great echo, etc).

Edited by Jaye, 22 September 2010 - 03:12 AM.

[holatuwol]

And second, I was not comparing post renewal with pre-renewal.

Aha, now I understand why you think your formula makes perfect sense.

Pre-renewal, archer class skills had a cast time to make you feel gimped if you had anything below 150 DEX because, unlike all the other classes like wizards and biochemists which were designed with the idea that there was no instant cast, archer classes could trivially achieve it. I know this, because I have 100 total DEX on my minstrel because he's a support build (in case you didn't know, support minstrels actually do not have Arrow Vulcan), and I know that Gravity wants me to just play songs since even Tarot is near useless to me.

Post-renewal, archer classes just feel gimped in general until they reach third class. And your formula comes to save the day and makes archer classes still feel gimped! We should praise you, but it's not like you've ever played a minstrel or gypsy pre-renewal or tried to use arrow repel pre-renewal with anything less than 120 total DEX (basically what we're stuck at with normal renewal mechanics) or 130 total DEX (under your proposed formula), given that most builds trivially reach 150-170 total DEX.

[Whacko]

Try casting the new Zen in WoE. Then try using the new sura skills... wait, all the new sura skills are more or less instant cast yet they rely on having spheres to be utilized. I can only assume suras were meant to skip the champion part of life and go from monk->sura and just use Summon Spirit Sphere since it has innate phen effect.

Another issue of 3rd class DPS skill is near instant cast and OP so let's nerf the trans skill's cast that completely effects everything else this class can do.