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New Cast Time Proposal


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Poll: New Cast Time Proposal (3 member(s) have cast votes)

How do you feel about this proposal?

  1. It's perfect. (9 votes [12.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.68%

  2. Good. Needs a little adjustment. (39 votes [54.93%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.93%

  3. Poor. On par with or worse than how it is now. (13 votes [18.31%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.31%

  4. It's completey off mark. (10 votes [14.08%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.08%

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#26 Doddler

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:24 AM

yeah it annoyed me he conveniently skipped over that one. :wah:


I didn't mention arrow vulcan because it uses 20%/80% fixed/variable ratio that is most common. All the skills I mentioned are completely fixed or have high fixed. I did skip ones where I felt this was appropriate, like 0s/2s zen, 1s/1s asura, and 0s/1s acid bomb, and only listed the ones that I thought were inappropriately penalized with higher than normal fixed cast.
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#27 Kadelia

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 01:27 PM

doesn't really change the fact that skills like AV didn't have a long cast time for balance reasons so much as making them still have a noticible cast time at 100+ dex so that performers still had some room to improve from 60 to 99 when lvling. the blanket 20/80 without considering the base cast time was negligence.
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#28 BlackPotato

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:57 PM

4 second Arrow Vulcan DO NOT WANT



exactly. way to make a class that struggles even more worthless...
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#29 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:27 PM

Right guys, can we focus a bit on the suggestion? Arrow vulcan is already in the list I put up, with a specific formula just for classes that were meant for high dex. 170 dex would make arrow vulcan cast time about .46 seconds, WITHOUT any other buffs or gears that affect cast time. Isn't that good enough?

I also do notice that people are still worried about the cast time being "near instant-cast", as if this is a problem. Do I have to point this out again? The last example focuses on as much equipment and buffs as reasonably possible towards cast time. Tell me, with the glorious arcwand, sprint mail, 2 sprint rings, and a magic eyes hat, do you think you will have anywhere above 150 int/dex?

I am estimating that probably the fastest cast time we will have for something like stormgust or meteor storm (base 15 seconds) would be .6 seconds. Now suppose you are up against a warlock or hwiz without sacraments or support from strings... do you really think a LONE hwiz or warlock is going to be such a big threat as before?

Also, do not forget the strings nerf. You guys are still talking about how much damage LKs and bios can do with strings, however it was also suggested to drastically cut the after-cast reduction to reasonable amounts. It will effectively be impossible to spam skills as quickly as before...


...anyway, so for right now, I will be taking a look at the rest of the skills doddler mentioned and adding them to the original post. I want to know what your main issues and gripes are with this proposal, so that maybe we can meet on some issues and improve it.


Ok, I am also wondering: does soul syphon have a cast time in renewal? How about full strip? The thing is, I think it would be more fair for these skills to have cast times. If renewal already gave them something like fixed cast times, I think I would just make the cast time variable..

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 17 September 2010 - 05:45 PM.

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#30 BlackPotato

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:45 PM

Right guys, can we focus a bit on the suggestion? Arrow vulcan is already in the list I put up, with a specific formula just for classes that were meant for high dex. 170 dex would make arrow vulcan cast time about .46 seconds, WITHOUT any other buffs or gears that affect cast time. Isn't that good enough?


no.
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#31 Doddler

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:52 PM

Right guys, can we focus a bit on the suggestion?


Well iRO can't just up and change the formula, even if for some strange reason they wanted to. iRO is far more likely to be able to adjust individual 'problem' skills than it is to ever try to convince Korea to amend the entire formula. While the discussion on how they could handle it is interesting, it seems like it would be more productive to try to identify specific skills that people can agree are a problem, and see if those can be corrected.
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#32 Prodigy

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:51 PM

I also do notice that people are still worried about the cast time being "near instant-cast", as if this is a problem. Do I have to point this out again? The last example focuses on as much equipment and buffs as reasonably possible towards cast time. Tell me, with the glorious arcwand, sprint mail, 2 sprint rings, and a magic eyes hat, do you think you will have anywhere above 150 int/dex?

I am just going by the kRO Renewal discussions I've read on iRO Wiki and according to the folks over there, so here goes - it is reasonable enough to get at least 180 total dex, and possibly stretch it to 200+ with Battle Chant. Int should be in the 140~160 range, depending on the buffs and foods, and around 180+ int with Sleipnir on. (Keep in mind that Genetics can make a food buff that gives +20 stats and it stacks with the Kafra +10 foods)

Edited by Prodigy, 17 September 2010 - 08:51 PM.

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#33 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:15 PM

I am just going by the kRO Renewal discussions I've read on iRO Wiki and according to the folks over there, so here goes - it is reasonable enough to get at least 180 total dex, and possibly stretch it to 200+ with Battle Chant. Int should be in the 140~160 range, depending on the buffs and foods, and around 180+ int with Sleipnir on. (Keep in mind that Genetics can make a food buff that gives +20 stats and it stacks with the Kafra +10 foods)


Well, in order to get the fastest cast times, you are going to actually have to take off at least 16 dex from that, since using nimble gloves, ramen hat, and quad dexterous wand would not be replaced with the items that actually reduce cast time. Also, now you are piling the +10 foods, battle chant, and god items onto this...

so.. 184 dex, 180 int. Seems to fit on the chart, and you'll have about .45 sec stormgust?


Right guys, can we focus a bit on the suggestion? Arrow vulcan is already in the list I put up, with a specific formula just for classes that were meant for high dex. 170 dex would make arrow vulcan cast time about .46 seconds, WITHOUT any other buffs or gears that affect cast time. Isn't that good enough?


no.

You are being too picky. Get more dex, buffs, and equips if you do not think this is good enough.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 17 September 2010 - 11:17 PM.

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#34 Fureedo

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 01:58 AM

The problem I see with not having fixed cast is...

oops isila card + string
or a +9 Crown of deceit with CT keeper card + 2 sprint ring + string
or some other combos with mvp cards
oops your formula breaks and we're back to the realm of instacast everything.


Some skills should not have fixed time, but those should be the exception instead of the rule ^-^;;
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#35 Brindizer

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 06:18 AM

Who uses Storm Gust?
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#36 BlackPotato

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 08:53 AM

Well, in order to get the fastest cast times, you are going to actually have to take off at least 16 dex from that, since using nimble gloves, ramen hat, and quad dexterous wand would not be replaced with the items that actually reduce cast time. Also, now you are piling the +10 foods, battle chant, and god items onto this...

so.. 184 dex, 180 int. Seems to fit on the chart, and you'll have about .45 sec stormgust?



You are being too picky. Get more dex, buffs, and equips if you do not think this is good enough.


disagree. certain skills DONT need a fixed cast time since they arent considered game breaking. making some chars have 200 dex just for a decent 1st level attack isnt what i consider being fair to your player base.
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#37 Babbles

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 07:32 PM

Sure if you want instant acid bomb, chain gfists and broken clashing spam to become more stupid than it is right now. A blanket removal of 2nd job fixed delay is dumb. I don't even really want to advocate that iRO change them because, and I apologize to the GMs for this, they aren't the greatest at balancing. I would be happy however if they would request that kRO perhaps review the breakdown of fixed cast of some 2nd job skills.

That's true. Although hard to get instant cast at 99 or lower, it would still be sort of possible, and an AB rain is one of the most unbalanced things there is.

What should really be done is either the cast time or fixed portion of those skills which *should* be near or instant (FAS, FA, Charge Arrow, etc) should be significantly reduced so the fixed part is nearly instant, or just set to 0.
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#38 Prodigy

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 09:03 PM

Well, in order to get the fastest cast times, you are going to actually have to take off at least 16 dex from that, since using nimble gloves, ramen hat, and quad dexterous wand would not be replaced with the items that actually reduce cast time. Also, now you are piling the +10 foods, battle chant, and god items onto this...


Uhm, +10 foods is what allowed the brokeness that is perpetual insta cast in the first place. In any case, what I'm trying to point out is that your formula does not have a hard cap. As I said, it has an asymptote where it's impossible to get a 0-second casting time, but it is possible to get infinitely closer to it. Remember that one of the thoughts behind Renewal is the idea of them being able to constantly release newer and better equipments, without worrying about breaking some sort of mechanic. With your formula, there comes a point where if they release better dex/int gears or better cast time reduction gears, then people can get 99.99999999999999999999% casting time reduction. Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration, but you get the idea. This is where a small fixed casting time comes in. No matter how much dex/int or casting time reduction they introduce, they will never have to worry about players getting any faster than the hard cap.

Again, I'm not saying that kRO's casting time is perfect, in fact, I think that the blanket 20%/80% is just retarded for some skills, but I still agree that they're in the right direction with putting fixed casting time. I'm just hoping that the fixed casting time for any skill is, at most, 1~1.5 seconds.
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#39 Kadelia

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 03:52 AM

prodigy, kro's system really isn't any better. on kro you will eventually have enough +DEX gear that all that is left is fixed cast times, and there is already a skill for -10% fixed and some gears that reduced fixed time. All they need to do is release a few more fixed cast reducing gears and it will be instant again.

the PROBLEM is that kro is offering this near instant cast again to THIRD JOB which still makes 2nd job skills WORTHLESS that have these fixed times.

Edited by Jaye, 19 September 2010 - 03:53 AM.

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#40 Wanderer

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:39 AM

prodigy, kro's system really isn't any better. on kro you will eventually have enough +DEX gear that all that is left is fixed cast times, and there is already a skill for -10% fixed and some gears that reduced fixed time. All they need to do is release a few more fixed cast reducing gears and it will be instant again.

the PROBLEM is that kro is offering this near instant cast again to THIRD JOB which still makes 2nd job skills WORTHLESS that have these fixed times.


As far as I know there's no stacking with fixed cast time gear/skills so if you are a Warlock and have Radius on, and someone buffs you with Sacrament only Sacrament will prevail. I believe the same applies to gears.
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#41 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:17 PM

Uhm, +10 foods is what allowed the brokeness that is perpetual insta cast in the first place. In any case, what I'm trying to point out is that your formula does not have a hard cap. As I said, it has an asymptote where it's impossible to get a 0-second casting time, but it is possible to get infinitely closer to it. Remember that one of the thoughts behind Renewal is the idea of them being able to constantly release newer and better equipments, without worrying about breaking some sort of mechanic. With your formula, there comes a point where if they release better dex/int gears or better cast time reduction gears, then people can get 99.99999999999999999999% casting time reduction. Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration, but you get the idea. This is where a small fixed casting time comes in. No matter how much dex/int or casting time reduction they introduce, they will never have to worry about players getting any faster than the hard cap.

Again, I'm not saying that kRO's casting time is perfect, in fact, I think that the blanket 20%/80% is just retarded for some skills, but I still agree that they're in the right direction with putting fixed casting time. I'm just hoping that the fixed casting time for any skill is, at most, 1~1.5 seconds.


Yes, this is the concept of the formula. Do you also understand the concept of INFINITY? Only when you approach INFINITY, does the cast time really, really get down zero or very nearly zero.

This is the reason why I chose an exponential formula. There is no hard limit to how fast you can cast. However, not only do large amounts of stats cost many stat points, but they also still give diminishing returns as well. You would really have to be crazy to think that all these stats will become SO HIGH, that you can get off stormgust, meteor storm, or any of these new 3rd job skills in less than .2 seconds, even years down the road.


And this is to both you and Fureedo:

There will never be a realm of instant-casting again unless the skill already has a very short cast time or no cast time at all. All the stuff you guys are afraid of is buff after buff after buff of super-specialized stats and gear and MvP cards / godly upgraded items. And that is a LOT of cheese to pile on one seriously vulnerable character. They deserve to get something nearly instant cast again with all that stuff, because they put in all the effort into obtaining it.

But even then... OH NO, dispel! OH NO, strip!! And a lot of their advantage is gone again. A .4 sec seems really fast, but a lone wiz cannot solo a guild with that when he/she is constantly being attacked (and thus, interrupted even then). Even when fully supported with strings, it isn't so bad because strings would no longer give 0 after-cast delay.

It's a great step up from how it was previously though, because it was entirely possible to have stuff like... GR, GTB, stun resist gears, and STILL have instant cast, high int, and decent vit.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 19 September 2010 - 06:21 PM.

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#42 Kadelia

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 07:00 AM

actually I liked the ability to earn instant cast pre-renewal :X especially with archers, working from a cast bar to the same re-use time as double strafe with skills like blitz beat, focused arrow strike, melody strike, etc.

your proposed formula prevents that from ever happening :)

Edited by Jaye, 20 September 2010 - 07:00 AM.

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#43 Prodigy

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 07:51 AM

prodigy, kro's system really isn't any better. on kro you will eventually have enough +DEX gear that all that is left is fixed cast times, and there is already a skill for -10% fixed and some gears that reduced fixed time. All they need to do is release a few more fixed cast reducing gears and it will be instant again.

the PROBLEM is that kro is offering this near instant cast again to THIRD JOB which still makes 2nd job skills WORTHLESS that have these fixed times.


I don't like kRO's as a whole either. But I still agree with the concept of having fixed casting, and they did put a hard cap on how much fixed casting reduction you could have (fixed casting reductions don't stack; only the highest works, and Sacrament is the highest right now with 50%. Nydhoggur card on a wizard class also gives 50%, and Rata proc is 50% as well)

My only problem with kRO's formula is they tailored the casting time for 3rd classes with 120 max-stats in mind, making non-3rds with 99 max-stats struggle with casting.
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#44 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 09:07 AM

If anything, what I may do is, for the archer specific skills, also add INT as a factor that reduces cast time. As in: BASE TIME * .985^DEX * .996^INT. Eh, I'll work out the numbers later.

ANYWAY, remember, you were pushing for a different way to handle these skills, but it wasn't really easy to obtain instant cast either.
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#45 Kadelia

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 09:52 AM

My only problem with kRO's formula is they tailored the casting time for 3rd classes with 120 max-stats in mind, making non-3rds with 99 max-stats struggle with casting.

This as well as the circumstances the skills were designed under are the crux of the issue.

2nd job skills were designed FOR the old system.

For example, 2nd job skills were designed in the notion that they could start slow and end up really fast or even instant. Proof of this is in the long base cast times such as on storm gust. Its pretty obvious that even as of pre-comodo any wizard could have 99 base dex, their job bonus, blessing, and some basic dex gear such as nimble gloves and apple of archer. That said, it was surely planned that wizards could have around 130 dex, which puts even a 10 second base time like storm gust at 1.3 or so seconds. A lot of skills like storm gust seem to have been designed with a high starting cast time for this reason. Seems like kRO kind of gritted their teeth and tried to bear it with things like stat foods which they wanted to add to the game so people could continually improve their stats as the game got older, unfortunately getting so near the 150 cap that things were no longer in-line with the cast time formula.

However, it does strike me as intentional that many archer skills in specific have instant cast. Even pre-comodo, 150 dex on any archer type was far from a feat. A hunter could easily have something like 140 dex before bless and then reach the 150. Which this tells that skills like blitz beat were meant to be close to instant without quite being there, other skills released in the trascendent update could be deemed dotherwise, since the job bonus for some of these classes (such as Gypsy) are literally 10 higher, making 150 possible without any sort of external buff or cash shop item. Clearly, skills like Arrow Vulcan and Focused Arrow Strike had their % damage, cooldown, etc., planned around the eventuality the owner of this skill would have 140+ dex and virtually or literally no cast time.

Come renewal we have a new system that attempts to force that old intended ~2 second time on Storm Gust without any sort of bias, completely ignoring skills that WERE balanced around instant cast being OK.

Edited by Jaye, 20 September 2010 - 09:54 AM.

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#46 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 10:20 AM

Meh, so what is everyone's biggest gripe with this proposal? I think I am seeing 2 things, even though I try to argue with them...

1) It's still too easy to get an extremely fast cast time. And I mean .. you are serious right? I am trying to emphasize the stats and gears and buffs that are needed to really bring cast times down, so you really think casting certain skills is still too fast?


2) Special archer skills should have no cast time or a cast formula that that makes getting instant cast relatively easy?


Is this correct, or is there anything else?


Also, Jaye, when you bring the difference between what cast times were meant for 2nd jobs and 3rd jobs, I may see what you mean.

The thing is, it is ARGUABLE, that even with the new renewal system, a wizard way before the time of trans classes would most likely have a cast time only slightly faster than a warlock with sacraments and high dex/int, cast gears.

A wizard with 131 dex (no other buffs but bless) would get a stormgust off in 1.9 seconds. A warlock with nearly the max of int and dex and the sacraments buffs would probably cast stormgust anywhere from 1.7 - 2 seconds.

Then you take warlock skills, for instance. From what I hear from players who actually played and tested, marsh of abyss has no cast time. The AoE stone curse has no cast time. Neither does white imprison. ..... Soul expansion has a short cast time, and earth strain is probably takes about as long to cast as lv 10 JT. I mean, really.

This is only one tree, but still, there seem to be a ton of 3rd job skills that are probably more useful now but have instant or much shorter cast times than other 2nd job skills... If anything, not sure if this helps my point or not, but what I am saying is, I just don't see this correlation between needing to change cast time formula and then designing a bunch of skills with this formula in mind that don't particularly seem as screwed over by it as previous skills... I have no idea why it seems the more advanced and useful skills seem to have way shorter cast times than the previous 2nd class skills....

Still, I am not buying that all these archer skills were meant to have "instant" cast. Probably really fast, but instant cast, always, as an inalienable right? Not really.

Don't believe me? Take arrow repel. You get this skill as an archer. And you won't have anywhere near 150 dex at the time. Or blitz beat? Typically this skill was also useful for builds that got luk, int, and more agi, so of course the dex on these builds would obviously be lacking.

But as for arrow vulcan or FAS, I just don' think it's fair they are instant cast. No, I don't want to make the cast incredibly stupid and gimpy, just not instant. FAS, well... it pwns mobs. Nuff said. Arrow vulcan, however, even if it has a .4 sec cast time... if you want to complain that DS could do nearly the same damage, try having a priest follow you and lex before you attack and notice the difference.

Edited by LethalJokeChar, 20 September 2010 - 10:37 AM.

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#47 Kadelia

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 11:30 AM

FAS isn't very good even at instant cast. Just about all its good for is AL3. You need a fixed, non-moving party and an appropriate element to use. It also has limitations on how the monsters need to be arranged. In just about 90%+ of all instances, double strafe is going to out-damage any mobbing you try to do with this skill solo, as well as in a party. And you want to nerf it? That's just one of about 4 examples I can list that contradict your opinions above.

You don't really seem to know what you are talking about in any of the statements you made about the skills above. While I appreciate your sentiment in improving the cast formula, I do not think you are the most qualified to determine what skills should have what re-use limitations and whatnot. You should ask people what they think the speed of the skills should be and adjust your formula to meet their demands.

I have a 99/70 Gypsy, don't talk to me about what is the right way to lvl with AV.

Edited by Jaye, 20 September 2010 - 12:07 PM.

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#48 holatuwol

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 11:51 AM

Basilica: 9s fixed.

I'm out of the loop here. Did Basilica get crazy buffs post-renewal, or is Gravity really so incompetent that they nerfed a near-useless skill even further while leaving things like 150k clashing spiral?

Edited by holatuwol, 20 September 2010 - 11:57 AM.

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#49 Kadelia

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 01:14 PM

gravity kr is just incompetent
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#50 LethalJokeChar

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 09:39 PM

And you want to nerf it?

You don't really seem to know what you are talking about in any of the statements you made about the skills above. While I appreciate your sentiment in improving the cast formula, I do not think you are the most qualified to determine what skills should have what re-use limitations and whatnot. You should ask people what they think the speed of the skills should be and adjust your formula to meet their demands.

I have a 99/70 Gypsy, don't talk to me about what is the right way to lvl with AV.


Since when did giving a proposal that brings FAS cast from 1+ seconds down to less than .1 seconds constitute as a nerf? Oh, THAT'S right, you don't know what we are talking about, do you? We are talking about the new F'ing renewal system that is currently in effect that has made skills like FAS and arrow vulcan nigh unusable, and if you want to whine that a .07 sec cast time with like no buffs is still a problem, I'm just not going to listen.

Please go on about how much you know so much about RO than me. I'd bet silly little scenarios like mobbing up monsters yourself and aligning them properly, thin walkways in emp rooms, and clusters of attackers on the emperium have absolutely NO BEARING on FAS. Is it really me who doesn't know what I'm talking about when I can pull a bunch of uses for a skill out of my ass from a class I have barely even played, or you, who, plays your class often yet still doesn't even know how to utilize your skills properly?

Man, you better stay away from warlocks then! That 2+ sec cast time would eat you alive if you think you are going to have trouble with cast times of .07 - .4 seconds.
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