187 replies to this topic

[Heimdallr]

I don't get asked the question "What is a 3rd party program" very often, it seems that most people have a certain assumption as to what it is so it didn't need stated directly. But if someone did ask me, I would probably go into some long meandering diatribe like the following:

A 3rd party program is a piece of software or hardware that allows you to get access to information, modifies information or automates the game in a fashion that we have not specifically allowed.

- Packet Sniffers and Editors are right out, they can get information that the game client doesn't display to the player, or edit data to possibly cause problems.
- Bots : They play the game for you, that is not intended, this one is the number 1 reason we ban people from ragnarok.
- RCX : This one is an odd case that I will explain below.
- Autopotters: Program that presses keys for you when certain criteria (HP/MP %) is met, this is kind of playing for you, or at least one part of the game play.

Edge cases that we don't explicitly ban for.
- Recording tools like Fraps, it isn't playing for you, or modifying/reading data you shouldn't otherwise have access too.
- EXP calculators/monitors : You could calculate in your head if you were pating attention to the battle readout, plus this is a tool that we explicitly want to allow because we think it is useful.
- RCX : Odd Case will explain below.

At some point a number of years ago we were presented with a translated RO program that did neat little things like monitor EXP, records game activities in an ultra small format, shows AoE effects as colored ground tiles instead of hard to see through/ or unshown graphics; this was great for WoE as it allowed better tactical readout. This program was RCX. We made an exception to our "no 3rd party program" rule specifically for RCX, and all was ok for awhile. Later someone expanded the tool to have a "heal slave" this was a bot that was built in, and that instantly made us put RCX on the not allowed list again, sadly.

Now recently some hoolabaloo has come up in the community regarding RCX usage and people getting banned or not banned for its usage, and it has called into question what our policy is regarding it, and by extension other 3rd party programs. If someone is using RCX to record or use the ground tile features we would not care, frankly they are tools we've requested to be built directly into the game for the past 2-3 years (before renewal). But that nasty bot is the reason we don't allow it.

From years of experience we know that if we allowed RCX, and someone was banned for botting (even if using a different Bot program) they would retaliate saying we allowed RCX and that is all they were using. The gradient nature that the sliding scale of badness that goes from Black (Bots, packet editors) to the gray, RCX to the white EXP viewers is either lost on some players or blatantly misquoted to try and take advantage of a loophole. To avoid the whole grayscale nature of RCX we just said NO. But now we do have to be a bit more open regarding this policy.

RCX in itself is fine, but if you are using the heal slave features (or any other feature that fits into the 3rd party program criteria), we will have no mercy on your soul account and you will not be given any "outs" because it was some other program. If we reprogrammed MS word to start botting for you we would ban you for using it, we are banning the activity not the actual program usage. If someone is using RCX for more legit tool usages then frankly we don't have a beef with those players. If they start using it to automate play, get access to information that is not presented to the player or to modify data to try and cheat then they will cope with the consequences that such activities carry.

A project that we hope we can advance in 2013 is to develop "in house" tools for you to do such things like exp viewer and such to be built into the game if we cover all the legit tools, there is no reason for you to use other tools.

Happy Holidays! I'm looking forward to next year, we have a crazy packed update schedule for 2013, that dwarfs anything I've ever seen for RO. Will be busy, and should be great fun!

[Azyrk]

So what you're saying is I can use rcx? If I have a video of me using it in say, WoE, I will not get banned if some jerk decides to try to get me banned?

Just want to be clear, since your post seems like "as long as you don't bot we're not going to ban you."

Edited by Azyrk, 11 December 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[KamiKali]

So what if someone was banned for RCX even though they weren't using the heal slave feature? This has happened to a couple people I know. Simply speaking, they wouldn't use the heal slave feature in WoE.

[Ralis]

Quite frankly I DO find the colored tiles portion of RCX to give an advantage. A HUGE advantage, in fact, especially in a WoE environment. It shows you exactly where to step or where not to step rather than needing to figure out skill ranges yourself in a hectic environment.

Not only that, but it's essentially editing skill appearances: you can see where things are without actually having effects on, leading to much less lag while meanwhile others are struggling because they choose not to use a 3rd party program.

Edited by Ralis, 11 December 2012 - 08:50 PM.

[Facekiller]

im with ralis on this one... to make it fair to everybody playing youre essentially saying we all have to use this program to remain competitive... people can wait for the in house features to become available and if they cant they can deal... no reason for others to be forced to download a 3rd party program to compete with those who do...

[Azyrk]

If RCX is allowed, then there is no reason for a person to complain about another person using it. If they can't use it for computer reasons, how is that anyone elses problem? That's almost like saying lag is unfair because some people have it and others don't. It's really helpful for something like classic WoE where you basically have to play with effects off (whether you lag or not). In renewal, it does give you a bit of a visual advantage but that's the point of the program...

And no one is forcing you to do it. If you don't want it, play with out it. |:
Kind of like green pots. If you want to be at a disadvantage, don't bring them, but they're easy and available to everyone.

[Leonis1]

You dont need rcx to kick some ass. If someone uses it and it helps well good for them. If someone doesnt and gets their ass handed to em by someone who is using it, well thats their fault. Personally i prefer to play without it and if i die because i have effects on and i lag then thats my fault. Ill-_- and moan about it and move on with my life. Problem solved.

[Rate]

What does this have to do with the blatant allowance of cheating on both renewal and classic? This just looks like an attempt to sidestep outrage by posting irrelevant crap about rcx, which everyone already knows the rules surrounding.

[Aaronnn]

Quite frankly I DO find the colored tiles portion of RCX to give an advantage. A HUGE advantage, in fact, especially in a WoE environment. It shows you exactly where to step or where not to step rather than needing to figure out skill ranges yourself in a hectic environment.

Not only that, but it's essentially editing skill appearances: you can see where things are without actually having effects on, leading to much less lag while meanwhile others are struggling because they choose not to use a 3rd party program.

I think everyone should have the ability to see where stuff is on their screen is without having to worry about lag, especially because there's not even a @refresh feature like private servers.

It shows you what you should be able to see.

Edited by Aaronnn, 11 December 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[Easly]

27F-17CA575B-B14F

fix it

Edited by Easly, 11 December 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[KamiKali]

RCX honestly doesn't give an advantage in WoE. It doesn't show 3rd class skills. You're not going to be seeing the AoEs of dragon breath or anything, so you can't really play w/o effects on or anything solely based on the aid of RCX.
I'm sure experienced RO players are not going to need to know the cell range or where to snap, where to run to avoid walls. Those sorts of things are learned upon attending multitudes of WoE and knowing your own class's skill rangers and abilities.
Good players don't need this to "stay" good, mediocre players can use this to guide them, but there's always going to be a defined line separating those two. It's their choice to use it or not. Since it's legitimate now, there should be no complaints that one uses RCX to gain an "advantage" for the reasons above.

[Ramen]

I've never really thought it was fair to be able to see the colored boundaries of skills via RCX. I haven't used it except once several years ago, but wouldn't RCX show you the skill's area of effect at all times as long as the skill is still active? If so, it gives a HUGE advantage to those using RCX since normally you cannot tell if an AoE skill is still active if you've just walked on the screen right after it is cast. The effect (damage) is still there, but the animation doesn't get loaded so you unwittingly get hit by it.

[Aaronnn]

I've never really thought it was fair to be able to see the colored boundaries of skills via RCX. I haven't used it except once several years ago, but wouldn't RCX show you the skill's area of effect at all times as long as the skill is still active? If so, it gives a HUGE advantage to those using RCX since normally you cannot tell if an AoE skill is still active if you've just walked on the screen right after it is cast. The effect (damage) is still there, but the animation doesn't get loaded so you unwittingly get hit by it.

So basically RCX fixes a broken mechanic.

[Azyrk]

If it didn't give an advantage no one would use it lol

[trahsc]

hmm, in the hands of a more skilled writer, this type of deflection(not addressing a critical issue directly, but discussing a topic that is similar enough that it fools people into thinking you have addressed the issue) might be successful. it's not successful though.

but let's address a couple things, i guess:

-sure, having more guidelines on what is and is not permitted is nice, but if you're not actually going to enforce said guidelines, the entire point is moot. we'll see how you do.

-sure, talking about plans in the new year to implement tools that replace programs like RCX is nice, but if you're not actually going to deliver on that content, the entire point is moot. there's already a huge backlog of content that should already be released, making more promises you can't keep doesn't seem very 'sensicle'.

it's like i said before. talk is cheap, and this is just more talk. people like me do love this game, though, so it's in my best interests to hope you deliver some results.

at best, i'll be pleased to see the improvement of service from the GM team, and enjoy the game more as a result of your successes.

at worst, i'll be able to manufacture new content for the forums by continuously quoting your failures.

both i will enjoy.

[Ambur]

What does this have to do with the blatant allowance of cheating on both renewal and classic? This just looks like an attempt to sidestep outrage by posting irrelevant crap about rcx, which everyone already knows the rules surrounding.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought reading this post.

[Aaronnn]

Are people allowed to post WoE videos with RCX?

[Ralis]

I agree, mechanics should not be broken and we should have a lag-free game, but those should be fixed server-side. I shouldn't be forced to download a 3rd party program to be evenly matched with other people.

I really can't say much more than that. I've never cared much for RCX but at the same time I've never cared much about people using it since it was considered against the rules. Now that the policy is changing, though, it's like Gravity saying that you need to have this 3rd party program to be evenly matched.

As for the green potion analogy... Green potions are an in-game item. For the situation with RCX, I think it would be better to say that you need to bring *insert other-MMO item here* to not have a disadvantage. RCX and RO are two completely separate things. I really hate downloading 3rd party content to play a game when those features should really just be included if they were meant to be there.

[RennaSaintsworth]

What I heard before, customized RCX can show WoE Mini-map, makes it easier to navigate through the castle. This is 1 more reason why RCX is illegal now.

[Riakuta]

Isn't Lowerping & WTFast a 3rd party program that helps more than anything else with lag?

[Yggdrasil13]

So may I assume that once the official tool set is out then RCX will be banned?

[Leonis1]

RCX honestly doesn't give an advantage in WoE. It doesn't show 3rd class skills. You're not going to be seeing the AoEs of dragon breath or anything, so you can't really play w/o effects on or anything solely based on the aid of RCX.
I'm sure experienced RO players are not going to need to know the cell range or where to snap, where to run to avoid walls. Those sorts of things are learned upon attending multitudes of WoE and knowing your own class's skill rangers and abilities.
Good players don't need this to "stay" good, mediocre players can use this to guide them, but there's always going to be a defined line separating those two. It's their choice to use it or not. Since it's legitimate now, there should be no complaints that one uses RCX to gain an "advantage" for the reasons above.

I completely agree. you dont need rcx to be good. Experience in WoE is all you need to get a general idea of what skills have what ranges. I pretty much play with effects on all the time in WoE to avoid manhole bloody lust and all the other annoying skills. The only time i play with em off is when theres like 50+ people on my screen and skills going off everywhere and i cant even tell where my own mouse is anymore. And if rcx doesnt work with 3rd class skills its pretty much pointless so i dont see a reason why were even talking about it being an issue.

Edited by Leonis1, 11 December 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Iinker]

What I heard before, customized RCX can show WoE Mini-map, makes it easier to navigate through the castle. This is 1 more reason why RCX is illegal now.

WoE Mini-maps are a grf edit, not RCX.

[Ramen]

What I heard before, customized RCX can show WoE Mini-map, makes it easier to navigate through the castle. This is 1 more reason why RCX is illegal now.

Why would you need a minimap for the castles? O_o They're not that complicated.

[DrAzzy]

Isn't Lowerping & WTFast a 3rd party program that helps more than anything else with lag?

Lowerping and WTFast are allowed, GM team has stated this publicly on numerous occasions.