Salamander Flames too over powered

o.o Why would I ingnore you nick. Sometimes I see you in cd.. well thought it was you.. but you didnt respond. Anywho.. I have seen players sit and try to kill summons, but it just gets pointless. I can summon a second one before the first gets killed. Everyone says they die in a few shots, but if you do your gear right you can buff them up a bit. I had mine at around 7k hp with around 5k def. It took five-eight shots per which is plenty of time to summon a second one. Not to mention, if everyone is huddled together in cd, targetting them becomes a full time task.

 

I just came back like a month ago (i think). I tried saying hi to you a couple of times but i didn't get any response from you, probably half afk I guess? ._. SO ye, that's why I thought you were ignoring me and also the reason when I actually saw you in CD for the 1st time i just didn't say anything.

 

Hmm... You have a point as well. It just probably depends how dedicated that person is in killing that summon. But its quite easy on my BA and BC. I mean, its not like i can 2 shot those summons but i mean its not that hard to target it. I can't speak for other long range class but It should probably be the same. I don't want to sound dumb lul, since all class could target it just fine, but i mean, its easier for long range class to do it (BA, BC , Scouts, Bourg).

Nooo Nick. I would never ignore you on purpose. You should have whispered me!! <3The problem is that, while you take the time to retarget a new one, my summon is mass healing everything around you and as soon as you have finished killing one, I already have replaced it with another. So unless you kill me and stop the summons entirely..which is much harder because i have these flames out.. Im doing a lot of healing

I ignore both of you.

 

Vote this post up if you wish being ignored by Papa Matt.

Well, you know, i rarely use whisper and i don't even check my friends list to see who's on xD. I'd rather have a chat with someone if I'm next to their char (or i'm just lazy at chatting in general ._.) . If it's just one person doing all that work (targeting the summon and cleric), then probably its quite hard to manage. I was going to mention ways to counter it but I don't want some people to use it against us clerics so I'm just going to leave it there :>. And to be fair, I'm not against your suggestions as well. I actually think that lowering the hp gained from the salamander flame (since I think the mana flames are fine as it is), and maybe taking away % of mana after summoning those flames would be a better idea. Maybe 10-20% per cast/summon

Nooo Nick. I would never ignore you on purpose. You should have whispered me!! <3The problem is that, while you take the time to retarget a new one, my summon is mass healing everything around you and as soon as you have finished killing one, I already have replaced it with another. So unless you kill me and stop the summons entirely..which is much harder because i have these flames out.. Im doing a lot of healing

 

If it was me, I would click on your new flame and spam AoE. As I have said before,

 

1. The Salamander Flame is the weakness of the cleric because the cleric needs to be close to the flame to prevent it from disappearing.

2. The flame, itself, has low HP and Def.

3. In addition, it requires 3 seconds before the healing activates.

 

In other words, if i can kill the flame within the 3 seconds time frame. It's healing ability will not activate and you are only wasting your MP. That task is not difficult because the flame has low HP and Def. It can easily be destroyed within the 3 seconds time frame. In addition, the AoE will also hit the cleric because the cleric needs to be close to the flame to prevent it from disappearing. It is similar with killing 3 birds with 1 stone. The first bird is the flame. The second bird is wasting the cleric MP and prevent healing (because when the cleric spams summon, he can't use the healing skill) The third bird is hitting the cleric by hitting the flame. 

If it was me, I would click on your new flame and spam AoE. As I have said before,

 

1. The Salamander Flame is the weakness of the cleric because the cleric needs to be close to the flame to prevent it from disappearing.

2. The flame, itself, has low HP and Def.

3. In addition, it requires 3 seconds before the healing activates.

 

In other words, if i can kill the flame within the 3 seconds time frame. It's healing ability will not activate and you are only wasting your MP. That task is not difficult because the flame has low HP and Def. It can easily be destroyed within the 3 seconds time frame. In addition, the AoE will also hit the cleric because the cleric needs to be close to the flame to prevent it from disappearing. It is similar with killing 3 birds with 1 stone. The first bird is the flame. The second bird is wasting the cleric MP and prevent healing (because when the cleric spams summon, he can't use the healing skill) The third bird is hitting the cleric by hitting the flame. 

 

 

1. since people only play Crystal Defenders (and maybe one day/week Akram Arena) where the whole match is very static around 1 Area it is no big deal to keep them up while moving around. Once you figured the disappearing range out.

 

2.It is easy to push the stats of the flame that high that it doesn t die from 1-2 AoEs, since the flames scale with the clerics defense/hp and then it becomes a huge issue getting rid of all flames CONSTANTLY, and once again why is a heal that requires ~30 skillpoints stronger in its healoutput than the whole active heal tree which requires ~50 skillpoints?

 

3. And once they tick they tick with 4/6x 9% = 36%/54% hp every three seconds. The strongest heal over time (= HoT) from active heals ticks with 460 hp/second for like 5 (not sure about that number) seconds and has a huge cooldown.
 

Instead of making excuses you could start listing suggestions how the flames could be changed to make them actually not too overpowered (as they currently are).

 

I always hear "use aoes and it dies" - considering that at least 50% of all classes and builds (=weapons/trees) are really bad in AoEing you try to force people into spamming brainless AoE which is already way too overpowered compared to the reward you gain from single target styles.

Edited by iMatt, 10 October 2014 - 09:40 AM.

1. since people only play Crystal Defenders (and maybe one day/week Akram Arena) where the whole match is very static around 1 Area it is no big deal to keep them up while moving around. Once you figured the disappearing range out.

 

2.It is easy to push the stats of the flame that high that it doesn t die from 1-2 AoEs, since the flames scale with the clerics defense/hp and then it becomes a huge issue getting rid of all flames CONSTANTLY, and once again why is a heal that requires ~30 skillpoints stronger in its healoutput than the whole active heal tree which requires ~50 skillpoints?

 

3. And once they tick they tick with 4/6x 9% = 36%/54% hp every three seconds. The strongest heal over time (= HoT) from active heals ticks with 460 hp/second for like 5 (not sure about that number) seconds and has a huge cooldown.
 

Instead of making excuses you could start listing suggestions how the flames could be changed to make them actually not too overpowered (as they currently are).

 

I always hear "use aoes and it dies" - considering that at least 50% of all classes and builds (=weapons/trees) are really bad in AoEing you try to force people into spamming brainless AoE which is already way too overpowered compared to the reward you gain from single target styles.

 

1. this argument is not true. You can figure out the maximum range of the disappearing range, but there are two more range that you have to consider. First is the healing range of the flame. If you stand to far, you will not get heal and risk being surround by the enemies. Second, you have to take in to account the range of your opponent's skill(s). There is one more thing that you have to consider, and that is when the cleric summons the flame, the flame appear right next to the cleric.

 

2. You should consider to re-write number 2 because it is very confusing. If my guess is correct, you are trying to say why a 30sp skill is stronger than the 50sp skill(s). Is that correct? if it is then your argument is mislead because the different in them is the number of skills. 50sp will give you multiple healing skills. The total healing power of those skills combine are greater than the flame. On top of that, those healing skills do not have the delay period, which the flame has.

 

3. We have said this many time. you will not be able to put up all 4 flames at anytime.

 

Your sub-arguments include how to make the flame not too overpowered and how to not force people into using AoE. If it was me, i would argue the opposite about how weak def and low HP the flames have, and not to force people into the single click playing style of yours. We have too many people using single click raider in war, and that tells us something about how OP that class is.

2. You should consider to re-write number 2 because it is very confusing. If my guess is correct, you are trying to say why a 30sp skill is stronger than the 50sp skill(s). Is that correct? if it is then your argument is mislead because the different in them is the number of skills. 50sp will give you multiple healing skills. The total healing power of those skills combine are greater than the flame. On top of that, those healing skills do not have the delay period, which the flame has.

 

I will not rewrite it.

 

The second point two tells you that clerics flames defense and hp scale with their summoners stats, and can be pushed to the point where 2-3 AoEs are not enaugh to actually kill it.

Also I say in the point that the healing output is in no relation between normal heals and salamander heals.

 

Edited by iMatt, 10 October 2014 - 10:14 AM.

1. this argument is not true. You can figure out the maximum range of the disappearing range, but there are two more range that you have to consider. First is the healing range of the flame. If you stand to far, you will not get heal and risk being surround by the enemies. Second, you have to take in to account the range of your opponent's skill(s). There is one more thing that you have to consider, and that is when the cleric summons the flame, the flame appear right next to the cleric.

2. You should consider to re-write number 2 because it is very confusing. If my guess is correct, you are trying to say why a 30sp skill is stronger than the 50sp skill(s). Is that correct? if it is then your argument is mislead because the different in them is the number of skills. 50sp will give you multiple healing skills. The total healing power of those skills combine are greater than the flame. On top of that, those healing skills do not have the delay period, which the flame has.

3. We have said this many time. you will not be able to put up all 4 flames at anytime.

Your sub-arguments include how to make the flame not too overpowered and how to not force people into using AoE. If it was me, i would argue the opposite about how weak def and low HP the flames have, and not to force people into the single click playing style of yours. We have too many people using single click raider in war, and that tells us something about how OP that class is.

i really feel like you have ignored everything I said. Its possible to bump up the hp and def of a flame to make it last longer. I had a few people try and my flames were taking five or more meelees to kill. By thattime I have summoned another. Beyond that, the distance i can be from the flame is about two thirds my heal distance.. I could evenly space them out in a square if I wanted and stand in the middle to get heals from all of them(this is better for pvm, and not as applicable in pvp). I dont ever have to leave them. Furthermore, the flame itself heals far more than my single target and party heals all added up. And i am not talking a little difference, I am talking two to three times my other heals.

i really feel like you have ignored everything I said. Its possible to bump up the hp and def of a flame to make it last longer. I had a few people try and my flames were taking five or more meelees to kill. By thattime I have summoned another. Beyond that, the distance i can be from the flame is about two thirds my heal distance.. I could evenly space them out in a square if I wanted and stand in the middle to get heals from all of them(this is better for pvm, and not as applicable in pvp). I dont ever have to leave them. Furthermore, the flame itself heals far more than my single target and party heals all added up. And i am not talking a little difference, I am talking two to three times my other heals.

 

OK, this is going on long enough. I have not ignored everything you said, but you may have ignore mine.

 

1. You said it yourself, "Five or more meelees to skill". Meelee and AOE skills are two different things. You change the context and expect me to accept it as the previous argument. 

 

2. I know you can bump up the HP and Def of the flames by buffing it, but the new flame, which you summon late, will not have the same buff.

 

3. "You wrote, by that time, I have summon another." In other words, you can't maintain all 4 flames at the same time. At best, you can maintain 1 or 2 flames. Is that correct? and what would stop people from AOE those new flame, too? the new flame will be next to you, so their AOE will also hit you. is that correct?

 

4. You may pace them in the square formation, but your opponents also are not one players. They can attack all your flames at one. After those formation is destroyed, you would need time to set up another formation. is that correct? if you do not set up the formation, the new flame will be next to you and you will get hit alone with it. is that correct?

 

5. You wrote, "the flame itself heals far more than normal heals". that is correct, but normal heals do not have the same weakness that the flame has. You cannot attack the normal heals, and the normal heals do not have the waiting time. 

You really have not listened. I feel like you have been arguing only Matts points. I dont buff my flames, flames represent a fraction of my stats. I would be happy to test youre aoe theory in tg with you. All of my tests intially with how much they heal were with 1-2 flames. Not with the summon gem. So me saying the flames far out heal mg other skills.. is based off of keepong a singular flame up at all times. A single flame heals more than two times all my other skills together. Yes while you kill one i can be putting another out. There is a minimal cooldown time. Its less mana for me to summon four flames in a row then it is to use my most powerful aoe heal. But please, I invite you to test this with me. Let me show you what I mean rather then trying to tell you.

Rose CD 2014 - next Gen summon spam

 

 

 

 

Edited by iMatt, 13 October 2014 - 04:40 AM.

Sometimes I see these situations and think "Had I left my honor gear on my champ, AoEing would give me so much points."

But I play a crossbow knight, so ..*sighs*

Edited by jerremy, 13 October 2014 - 04:48 AM.

when quantity beats quality it usually means something is broken.

When technical advantage overcome skill.

when quantity beats quality it usually means something is broken.

We can say the same with the raider and scout.

We can say the same with the raider and scout.

 

comparing eggs with apples

Yes i ratehr enjoy enraged berserk with a HP received gem on my AoE built champ now. Rather vast amount of points. 

yey feed more points the the dumb aoes - aoe heals, aoe damage - time to make a spearchamp and faceroll with no sense

no don't matt.. they gonna make a new thread "spear champ too OP"

i bet soon everyone will do a new thread of everything about rose, y no nerf everything than?, damage? no problem, just all weapons same damage and correct damage passives and buffs (depending in the class), crit? fixing crit passives and gems, rest? just fix the rest easy xD

already gived a lil sugest about damage, oh wait i forgot smthing

heals? is np, just nerf all the classes n etc (already said xD) and than nerf the heals wich is balanced to ALL the classes, not op heals or smthing else.