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Kagerou/Oboro: Swirling Petals/Huuma Build Discussion


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#26 DrAzzy

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:14 AM

Someone should reset a Kagerou / Oboro and slowly add DEX/AGI and see how the damage changes. Someone experienced who knows how to scientifically test the skills (like yourself~) and verify the formula. I wrote the wiki article based on Rytech's data, so there is room for correction.

Where is his data available for analysis?

I already +10'ed a ninja suit so I could post the enchants, and I already wasted 3 bil on gear for a magic kagobo before determining that they're not good.

Someone elses turn to burn stat resets. I can't keep throwing money away like this.

Edited by DrAzzy, 21 February 2013 - 11:17 AM.

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#27 Kadelia

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:16 AM

http://forums.irowik...ad.php?t=100518

Honestly if the DEX and AGI are truly not in parentheses, then the skill is flat out useless. It'd do 1/3 the damage of exploding kunai. It'd need strings just to be on par with good skills, in which case the good skills would also be way better.

Edited by Jaye, 21 February 2013 - 11:18 AM.

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#28 DrAzzy

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:18 AM

But that thread states that there aren't parenthesis around dex+agi+150, both in the formula, and when Zero says the modifier is 1450 with 100 dex/agi, while the wiki entry you say you based on it says there are.
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#29 Kadelia

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:21 AM

I extrapolated because a lot of his formulas don't use parentheses when they are supposed to be there, and the other skills like explosive kunai do multiply the DEX and AGI by 5. If you test it and determine that each point is 1%, edit the tables to say that.
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#30 DrAzzy

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:31 AM

Why do I always have to test everything?

Can't someone else do it, for once? Come on guys...

I help people all day, and this is what I get when I ask for help? It really hurts.

Completely unsubstantiated claims from you, put into the wiki with no evidence to back them up, DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A CHAR THAT CAN TEST IT, and when I ask for more information "go test it yourself"?

Edited by DrAzzy, 21 February 2013 - 11:34 AM.

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#31 Ramen

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:33 AM

I'm not sure why your damage is so low Azzy. If it was an Oboro that you were looking at, it's likely it's because they had Distorted Crescent up at the time.. Also, the only other difference I noticed between our skill builds is that I have Throw Shuriken 10 instead of 5.


Why do I always have to test everything?

Can't someone else do it, for once? Come on guys...

I help people all day, and this is what I get when I ask for help? It really hurts.


I'm not sure why it needs to be tested...

I already confirmed that Swirling Petal's damage only increases by an average of 175 damage (per subhit) at 150/50 and 120/120 AGI/DEX when compared to having 1 in every stat. Whether or not we know the exact formula won't change the fact that AGI and DEX add almost no damage to the skill. On the other hand, if you're trying to use the imformation in order to try and get the formula changed so that AGI and DEX actually add useful amounts of damage to the skill, then that's another thing altogether.

Edited by Ramen, 21 February 2013 - 11:37 AM.

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#32 DrAzzy

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:35 AM

I'm not sure why your damage is so low Azzy. If it was an Oboro that you were looking at, it's likely it's because they had Distorted Crescent up at the time.. Also, the only other difference I noticed between our skill builds is that I have Throw Shuriken 10 instead of 5.

Aaah - I don't know if they had distorted crescent up.

I thought Throw Shiruken only effected it's own damage, not huuma skills...?
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#33 Kadelia

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:38 AM

Why do I always have to test everything?

Can't someone else do it, for once? Come on guys...

I help people all day, and this is what I get when I ask for help? It really hurts.

Completely unsubstantiated claims from you, put into the wiki with no evidence to back them up, DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE A CHAR THAT CAN TEST IT, and when I ask for more information "go test it yourself"?

I have already reset both my oboro twice and tested explosive kunai extensively and made all the wiki articles related the the skills. I do not have that skill or intend to get it, and do not own any good huuma options to test/compare with. You are the one that wants to use swirling petal and wants to reverse engineer it, so you should test it.

If you don't like what I did with the wiki, do it yourself. Its pretty simple.

Edited by Jaye, 21 February 2013 - 11:38 AM.

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#34 DrAzzy

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:46 AM

Jaye, it was your video of doing 40k swirling petals that made me go that build!
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#35 Kadelia

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:00 PM

You are mistaken, I haven't posted any videos!
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#36 DrAzzy

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:02 PM

You are mistaken, I haven't posted any videos!

Goddamnit then who the hell's video was that?!

That's part of why I was so pissed off above...
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#37 Kadelia

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:08 PM

I do about 30~40k with exploding kunai (no element) so I find it really hard to believe that swiling petals can do that much with 1% per agi or dex.
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#38 Ramen

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:54 PM

Goddamnit then who the hell's video was that?!

That's part of why I was so pissed off above...


It was me that posted that video...
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#39 DrAzzy

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:07 PM

It was me that posted that video...

Thank you! So you're the one whose actually tested this - just read the part of your above post where you mentioned testing it and finding that the damage formula definitely doesn't have parenthesis.
Do you have the numbers from those tests, ie, what you were doing with 1 all stats vs with lots of agi?

And how the hell do you get that kind of damage in the video?
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#40 Ramen

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:02 PM

Thank you! So you're the one whose actually tested this - just read the part of your above post where you mentioned testing it and finding that the damage formula definitely doesn't have parenthesis.
Do you have the numbers from those tests, ie, what you were doing with 1 all stats vs with lots of agi?

And how the hell do you get that kind of damage in the video?


I don't have the numbers, but I specifically remember it being between 100-200 damage difference (per subhit) with 1 in all stats versus 120 in both agi and dex.

As for my build, I've obviously gained some levels, but this is what I use. With a wind endow, I can currently 1 shot everything in the mid TI.

120/30 Oboro

Witch's pumpkin Hat
Gozarian Mask
+7 Special Ninja Suit of Ares (DEF+12 DEF+12)
+9 Double Kingbird Huuma Swirling Petal (DEF+12 DEF+12)
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Goibne's Greaves
Necklace of Mustle
The Sign Under a Cast

Stats:
98+9 STR
1+8 AGI
90+5 VIT
1+6 INT
90+5 DEX
30+4 LUK

Skill build as of right now

http://irowiki.org/~...qo1bnqnr1q1dnqn

When leveling, I have 16th Night, Distorted Crescent, Ninja Aura, and 9 Earth Spheres summoned at all times. I also get VIP buffs, and that's pretty much it.

Edited by Ramen, 21 February 2013 - 03:03 PM.

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#41 Kadelia

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:33 PM

Well that particular shuriken is +20% overall damage so I am sure that helps.
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#42 arifardy

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 05:25 AM

I don't have the numbers, but I specifically remember it being between 100-200 damage difference (per subhit) with 1 in all stats versus 120 in both agi and dex.

As for my build, I've obviously gained some levels, but this is what I use. With a wind endow, I can currently 1 shot everything in the mid TI.

120/30 Oboro

Witch's pumpkin Hat
Gozarian Mask
+7 Special Ninja Suit of Ares (DEF+12 DEF+12)
+9 Double Kingbird Huuma Swirling Petal (DEF+12 DEF+12)
+9 Extra High Level Heroic Backpack
Goibne's Greaves
Necklace of Mustle
The Sign Under a Cast

Stats:
98+9 STR
1+8 AGI
90+5 VIT
1+6 INT
90+5 DEX
30+4 LUK

Skill build as of right now

http://irowiki.org/~...qo1bnqnr1q1dnqn

When leveling, I have 16th Night, Distorted Crescent, Ninja Aura, and 9 Earth Spheres summoned at all times. I also get VIP buffs, and that's pretty much it.


and whats the +30 LUk for?
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#43 DrAzzy

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:03 PM

and whats the +30 LUk for?

Any build where you have 9x str for damage, and 1 luk is a bad build that the player did not think through.
http://irowiki.org/wiki/Atk

Edited by DrAzzy, 26 February 2013 - 07:04 PM.

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#44 Kadelia

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:50 PM

You'd have to be able to get 5x more LUK with the same points for it to be worth it, which only works at 1~11 LUK. Otherwise, you get more ATK from the points spent in STR (also weapon atk +0.5%).
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#45 pikachiquita5

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:40 PM

*looks over Azzy and Jaye's posts* Wait O__o So is allocating some of the points into LUK (for status ATK) a good idea or not? Or is it better to rely on weapon ATK and thus STR is a better idea?
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#46 DrAzzy

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 08:54 PM

Making reasonable assumptions, I get 1 str = ~4.5 luk. So you should get 11 luk before you get more than 91 str, and 21 luk before you go beyond 100 str.
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#47 Kadelia

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:27 PM

Making reasonable assumptions, I get 1 str = ~4.5 luk. So you should get 11 luk before you get more than 91 str, and 21 luk before you go beyond 100 str.

Something like that, but it also ignores the +0.5% weapon atk per 1 str and the +30 weight capacity. Calling someone's build ill-thought out because they don't choose to invest in luck isn't fair, IMO.
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#48 DrAzzy

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:20 PM

Something like that, but it also ignores the +0.5% weapon atk per 1 str and the +30 weight capacity. Calling someone's build ill-thought out because they don't choose to invest in luck isn't fair, IMO.

My math is counting the +0.5% weapon attack....

When I said that, I thought it was 21 luk to go past 91 str, not 11.
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#49 Kadelia

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:19 PM

My math is counting the +0.5% weapon attack....

When I said that, I thought it was 21 luk to go past 91 str, not 11.

Sorry I was looking at LUK as LUK/5 like DEX is, but it's LUK/3.

Also before I continue let me say the only thing I am contradicting you on, is the implication that anyone who chooses > 90 STR over getting at least 11 LUK is making some kind of mistake.

The way I see it:

90 STR = 90 ATK, +45% Wep_ATK
Assuming a weapon with 100 base weapon attack (which is pretty low.)

940 Stat.Pts. = 91 STR = 91 Status_ATK, +45 Wep_ATK
940 Stat.Pts. = 90 STR, 6 LUK = 92 Status_ATK, +45 Wep_ATK <-- better by 1 ATK

951 Stat.Pts. = 92 STR = 92 Status_ATK, +46 Wep_ATK <-- Exact same total atk
950 Stat.Pts. = 90 STR, 11 LUK = 93 Status_ATK, +45 Wep_ATK <-- Exact same total atk

973 Stat.Pts. = 94 STR = 95 Status_ATK, +47 Wep_ATK <-- better by 1 ATK
974 Stat.Pts. = 90 STR, 19 LUK = 96 Status_ATK, +45 Wep_ATK

995 Stat.Pts. = 96 STR = 96 Status_ATK, +48 Wep_ATK <-- better by 1 ATK
996 Stat.Pts. = 90 STR, 25 LUK = 98 Status_ATK, +45 Wep_ATK

(I don't want to split hairs over the fact that status attack is doubled in damage calculation, as we're talking like 2 damage at most which is irrelevant).

The way I figure, LUK is never really "better" than STR unless you want CRIT or Lucky Dodge more than weight capcity, with a pretty low ATK weapon. With a high ATK weapon (say a hurricane fury or a pile driver), STR is clearly better for damage-- always.

LUK only looks like a good investment at 5 total LUK, IMO. And only if your WEP_ATK is under 120 or so.

Edited by Jaye, 27 February 2013 - 02:23 PM.

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#50 Raidius

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:29 PM

maybe for hit x.x
also edp not affected by status atk so str wins there lol

back on topic, is this skill a waste then? x.x i mean compared to KE
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