131 replies to this topic

[Apocryphos]

Just wondering but a person with max aim sc vs a person with max evade sc with the same 700agi is a 500 aim vs 390 evade. I didn't include buffs or passive skills. Did I do something wrong?
Here are my calculations:AIM(100+700(0.12))(100%+162%)+18=500.
Evade(700(0.14))(100%+309%)= 399.
I think the problem is the AGI bonus not many people have access to 700 AGI.
- the 0.12 increment should be changed for each class having different values and some skills modifying it such as sniping from 0.12->0.24 almost doubling some skills.
Change the handicap feature to balance out the evade.
Reduce evade in EW similar to ragnarok woe reductions.

Blocking personally shouldn't change but rather increased by absolute defense rate. But cannot protect from aoe spells or attacks from above. Instead attacks do not cause hard knockdown but rather knock back.Spin it bear should repel instead of lift. Limiting to 1 storm blade the 2nd attack from cross cut should lift. But have no vertical range. Impervion increases damage taken by double reduces defense by skill lvl*10 during the duration. Parry cooldown increased auras disabled during barricade. Barricade only has cure and full super armor. Total attack power decreased defensive block rates increased.
Shield chain attack intervals increased.

Edited by Apocryphos, 04 April 2013 - 10:11 AM.

[Coolsam]

Just wondering but a person with max aim sc vs a person with max evade sc with the same 700agi is a 500 aim vs 390 evade. I didn't include buffs or passive skills. Did I do something wrong?
Here are my calculations:AIM(100+700(0.12))(100%+162%)+18=500.
Evade(700(0.14))(100%+309%)= 399.
I think the problem is the AGI bonus not many people have access to 700 AGI.
- the 0.12 increment should be changed for each class having different values and some skills modifying it such as sniping from 0.12->0.24 almost doubling some skills.
Change the handicap feature to balance out the evade.
Reduce evade in EW similar to ragnarok woe reductions.

Blocking personally shouldn't change but rather increased by absolute defense rate. But cannot protect from aoe spells or attacks from above. Instead attacks do not cause hard knockdown but rather knock back.Spin it bear should repel instead of lift. Limiting to 1 storm blade the 2nd attack from cross cut should lift. But have no vertical range. Impervion increases damage taken by double reduces defense by skill lvl*10 during the duration. Parry cooldown increased auras disabled during barricade. Barricade only has cure and full super armor. Total attack power decreased defensive block rates increased.
Shield chain attack intervals increased.

This seems quite resonable. I wonder if you can calculate if both Ninjas have max Dexterity and evade buff skill. Also I like the proposed Block here. Especially since it works with the Paladin skill changes you're mentioning.

[Luckyin]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I think it would be great
that block stays the way it is and make critical able to break through block!

I find that more logical and more interesting
just a suggestion

Edited by Luckyin, 04 April 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[IreKire]

i bump around 900-1k agi
and i am by no means stacked if you look at my character vs the top characters
and your calculations are off

and personally i think blocking is a bigger issue
still in the long run i dont see "fixing" i mean changing either of these doing the game any good except making people re-spend money to sc new items

Edited by IreKire, 10 April 2013 - 06:30 AM.

[StormHaven]

I still like yurai's idea about changing the formula to (aim/evade)*100= hit chance

[Coolsam]

I still like yurai's idea about changing the formula to (aim/evade)*100= hit chance

Alrighty w/ a good agi+aim pet I can max 505ish aim in pvp.
The average endgame ninja that's evade built has anywhere between 365-480 evade. I mean some go 500-670 but that's above average.

(505/480)*100= 105.208%?? A very frequent hit chance. Only their block can save them.

Let's try vs the highest evade seen. For this case I'm gonna put 650 merely cause only like 4-6 ninjas have ever surpassed that number. And 3 of them quit.

(505/650)*100= 77.69% chance. Still pretty frequent. Lets see if the 450ish aim I usually have would hold up.
(450/650)*100= 69.23% chance. Again above 50% which I consider pretty good.

Still w/ elements running amok this isn't glorious now. I like the idea and I tested it w/ average endgame aim/evades you'd probably see. Seems like it leans closer to a 1:1 evade:aim ratio instead of the current.

[Miname]

Alrighty w/ a good agi+aim pet I can max 505ish aim in pvp.
The average endgame ninja that's evade built has anywhere between 365-480 evade. I mean some go 500-670 but that's above average.

(505/480)*100= 105.208%?? A very frequent hit chance. Only their block can save them.

Let's try vs the highest evade seen. For this case I'm gonna put 650 merely cause only like 4-6 ninjas have ever surpassed that number. And 3 of them quit.

(505/650)*100= 77.69% chance. Still pretty frequent. Lets see if the 450ish aim I usually have would hold up.
(450/650)*100= 69.23% chance. Again above 50% which I consider pretty good.

Still w/ elements running amok this isn't glorious now. I like the idea and I tested it w/ average endgame aim/evades you'd probably see. Seems like it leans closer to a 1:1 evade:aim ratio instead of the current.

Seems fair to me.

[Coolsam]

Seems fair to me.

It's quite fair yes but with Elements making defense useless they'll drop like flies. Most evade stacked ninja's typically are glass cannons. They can't last very long vs good Critical rate if their evade can be hit more than 60% of the time. Now imagine cases of 70-100% hit rate w/ elements ignoring their defense.

[StormHaven]

It's quite fair yes but with Elements making defense useless they'll drop like flies. Most evade stacked ninja's typically are glass cannons. They can't last very long vs good Critical rate if their evade can be hit more than 60% of the time. Now imagine cases of 70-100% hit rate w/ elements ignoring their defense.

So basicly what every class without block faces(and extreme evade stackers) don't forget ninjas have katar blocking which at 10/10 is 30% block.

Edited by StormHaven, 10 April 2013 - 09:59 AM.

[dango]

It's quite fair yes but with Elements making defense useless they'll drop like flies. Most evade stacked ninja's typically are glass cannons. They can't last very long vs good Critical rate if their evade can be hit more than 60% of the time. Now imagine cases of 70-100% hit rate w/ elements ignoring their defense.

one thing at a time, if this issue is fix then they can move to element next. we have to see what is the outcome of this update first then focus on the next issue.

[Coolsam]

So basicly what every class without block faces(and extreme evade stackers) don't forget ninjas have katar blocking which at 10/10 is 30% block.

Pretty much yes. But remember only a handful of ninja's are smart enough to mix good hp w/ their max evade. Many ninja's have drastically low hp.

one thing at a time, if this issue is fix then they can move to element next. we have to see what is the outcome of this update first then focus on the next issue.

True. In fact this is a big improvement by the developers if they go through with this. Focusing on Evade and Block, then we shall focus on elements next.

[CharlesBabbage]

Personally, I would rather have them change the battle formulas instead of messing around with the equipment. Changing the current option limits and restrictions would make more players ragequit than just changing the battle formulas. Listed below are my proposed changes:

1. Aim / Evade

- Change the evasion formula to:

Actual Hit Chance = ((Aim + AimClassMod) / Evade) - EvadeClassMod

where:

AimClassMod - constant modifier for aim rate dependent on the player's class
EvadeClassMod - constant modifier for evade rate dependent on the player's class


2. Block

- When a player blocks an attack or skill, normal damage is reduced by 25% and all effects (debuffs, elemental damage, critical damage, stun, etc.) with the exception of knockdown are canceled. Hard knockdown will be changed into a soft knockdown, while soft knockdown remains the same.


3. Critical Damage / Critical Rate

- Set a 50% cap for the critical rate in PVP. Set a 400% cap for critical damage in PVP.



P.S.: My proposal is based entirely on my limited experience in PVP and from what I have read across a good number of threads and guides.

[dango]

Personally, I would rather have them change the battle formulas instead of messing around with the equipment. Changing the current option limits and restrictions would make more players ragequit than just changing the battle formulas. Listed below are my proposed changes:

1. Aim / Evade

- Change the evasion formula to:

Actual Hit Chance = ((Aim + AimClassMod) / Evade) - EvadeClassMod

where:

AimClassMod - constant modifier for aim rate dependent on the player's class
EvadeClassMod - constant modifier for evade rate dependent on the player's class


2. Block

- When a player blocks an attack or skill, normal damage is reduced by 25% and all effects (debuffs, elemental damage, critical damage, stun, etc.) with the exception of knockdown are canceled. Hard knockdown will be changed into a soft knockdown, while soft knockdown remains the same.


3. Critical Damage / Critical Rate

- Set a 50% cap for the critical rate in PVP. Set a 400% cap for critical damage in PVP.



P.S.: My proposal is based entirely on my limited experience in PVP and from what I have read across a good number of threads and guides.

i remember them set a cap for CD a long time ago(don't know if it was pvp or pve) but for some reason removed it.

Edited by dango, 10 April 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[Coolsam]

i remember them set a cap for CD a long time ago(don't know if it was pvp or pve) but for some reason removed it.

In PvE, CD capped at 250,000 damage hits. It was removed cause it didn't hit or do any damage if it hit that hard. But there wasn't a cap in PvP as I recall.

[StormHaven]

I've never seen CR as a problem in pvp except on ninjas.

[Coolsam]

I've never seen CR as a problem in pvp except on ninjas.

I've seen ppl talk about Crux shot's case. But in reality that isn't so bad unless you use sniping.

[Rimmy]

While it's on my mind... Two block rate-related things the developers might want to consider when making whatever changes they decide to implement:

1. Twin Fighters. Since they rely heavily on their weaving skills and the temporary 100% hit immunity they provide to survive in combat, a nerf to block rate could significantly affect them. Granted, the class is near-broken in PvP anyways seeing as how it often forces DCs for random players, but still, something to keep in mind.

2. Emergency Exit (and the Elga third form shield that acts like it). I don't personally have a problem with nerfing Emergency's block rate to act as proposed by the developers, but I think the Elga shield should be treated differently, otherwise that fire breath attack will likely be an unavoidable 1HKO for most classes.

Edited by Rimmy, 10 April 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[CharlesBabbage]

Was the Zodiac preview a ploy to make us forget about this? What happened to this issue? The thread stagnated from a month of no discussion, and more so from any WP/Barunson official representatives.

[dango]

Was the Zodiac preview a ploy to make us forget about this? What happened to this issue? The thread stagnated from a month of no discussion, and more so from any WP/Barunson official representatives.

it could be but I don't think so because other version already have this update, it just that our dev is kind of slow on everything when it come to updating/fixing bug. example: market search function took over half a year to fix it.

[StormHaven]

Was the Zodiac preview a ploy to make us forget about this? What happened to this issue? The thread stagnated from a month of no discussion, and more so from any WP/Barunson official representatives.

Like all the other serious balance disscussion that go on.

[Coolsam]

Btw it is confirmed SEA has these changes to Evade and Block (At least Block). I think they're waiting till the next major patch which in our case is the Zodiac dungeons to implement this change.

[Rabbicarpo2011]

Btw it is confirmed SEA has these changes to Evade and Block (At least Block). I think they're waiting till the next major patch which in our case is the Zodiac dungeons to implement this change.

i think they probably would have mentioned it.

[Coolsam]

i think they probably would have mentioned it.

2 Screenshots only shown recently and a preview on some MMO reviewing site don't tell the full details of a patch or patches. But it's a common trend to put major skill/class changes with major patches:

Paris Strikes Back: 4th Jobs, skill changes/additions.
Kryos Unleashed: More skill changes and new skills.
New Origins: 2 new classes and skill changes/additions to old classes.
Ragnarok+Legendary Update: Changes to classes PvP health and such and chain combos. (Pair them together as they came out shortly after each other)

So it'd make sense if you plan on implementing Block/Evade nerf it'd be on that update being the closest major patch.

Still back to discussion on the change itself and not possible release dates. If Summer is the earliest they can implement it well we can't guarantee that.

[dango]

well I think it a dumb move if they decide to release both the zodiac and evade/block nerf at the same time. what if there are bug that come with these update. you know how long it take them to fix one simple error let alone these new update. these 2 update should be release separately and I said the evade/block come first because more people are more focus on fixing the skill/class balance then rather farm a set that probably will have crappy stats.

[CharlesBabbage]

well I think it a dumb move if they decide to release both the zodiac and evade/block nerf at the same time. what if there are bug that come with these update. you know how long it take them to fix one simple error let alone these new update. these 2 update should be release separately and I said the evade/block come first because more people are more focus on fixing the skill/class balance then rather farm a set that probably will have crappy stats.

Agreed. I won't deny having a personal stake on this issue, but it really is imperative that we hear something from an official representative from either WP or Barunson about this matter.