174 replies to this topic

[Bronx]

Fair enough, I would actually prefer it if people copied other people's builds. I want mine to be unique.

[SonicTMP]

Well whatever works. The skill tree isn't really super huge to make major deviations but if you're happy with your build.

[SolidJelly]

Putting effectiveness aside,

In terms of choice, Knight has pretty much the least choice out of all the classes.  You can take all the skills you need for tanking and still have a lot of points left over. 

Even with DPS skills, there's not much variety because there's not a lot of DPS skills that are worth investing heavily in. 

Shield Bash and Shield Boomerang/Shield Boomerang Mastery don't really boost damage by a lot when you invest 5/5 compared to 1/5.  Shield Charge doesn't do damage, it's purely a PVP skill.  Aura Heal is crap. 

Only Shield Cannon does, but 30 second cooldown...so essentially you're left with a Concentration vs non-Concentration build. 

The combat is dull and boring as well, no real variety.  Most of it is Bash X3 -> Aura Strike. 

 

Compare this to Warriors, they got plenty of useful skills to choose from:

Berserk, Bowling Bash, Rage Strike, Battle Leap. 

Brandish Storm (the AOE equivalent of Grand Cross) is much better than Grand Cross because you can move while casting it. 

Tension Relax (their healing skill) actually works well, unlike Aura Heal. 

3 Defending skills to choose from (Parrying/Endure/Defender), instead of 2 (Aura Shield / Shield Fortress)

 

I only realised this after playing other classes because they have so many builds to make and you really have to think long and hard about every single skill.  When you level up and get a skill point you're excited because most of the skills look useful and you want them all. 

To go back and play my Knight now is like torture.  It's so slow and boring and there's not much to look forward to when you get skill points, there's not a lot of good investments for it. 

[Kalandros]

Berserk isn't always up vs. Concentration always being up

Bowling Bash is just a Rage-generation skill, it doesn't ever do enough real dmg for it to be important, its not really variety, its just an extra button to press every x seconds to have enough rage for Rage Strike

 

Rage Strike hitting 3 targets and potentially critting all 3 of them (for 6~7k outside colo and up to 15k+ in colo haha, YES that was a MAD moment!) is really fun though, compared to the 1 target Shield Cannon which cannot do 88% on each attack unlike rage strike hitting all 3 targets for 90% each~ oh well! 3:

 

As for battle leap, shield charge is almost equivalent to it - of course there's no AoE stun attached to it

 

Overall, Knights get more AP than Warriors

And the repetition of bash - aura strike isn't that different from my wizard.

 

Spam fire bolt, press instant fire ball/explosion when its up, keep fireflower on target(s), etc

 

But really, Shield Fortress is an awesome utility to bring to a raid.

Edited by Kalandros, 02 July 2013 - 03:46 AM.

[SolidJelly]

Yeah, I was just gonna say, the only class that might be more boring to play than a Knight is...a Wizard. 

Remeber I wasn't talking about effectiveness

Yeah, I know some Warrior skills aren't as good, but they are more fun to use, mostly because they have AOE effects compared to single-target. 

For example, compare the heavy-hitting skills Rage Strike and Shield Cannon.  Shield Cannon doesn't hit multiple targets. 

Compare Battle Leap with Shield Charge.  Shield Charge doesn't hit multiple targets. 

When you build a Warrior, you actually have to think long and hard about the skills that you take up.  Look at LuBu, he's been a Warrior forever, written a guide, completed CoA Hard and he's still considering altering his build because there's so many ways to build it. 

 

At least Warriors have more options than Aura Strike.  Aura Strike is zzzz......

[AlexaWhite]

SolidJelly nice try. You write as if the dull combat mechanics differs from class to class. But it's not true.

Knights not better or worse than other dps-classes. And there we show that, I'ts just one two primary ways to build knight.

 

[Haboob]

Just remove the cooldown from Aura Heal and DPS Knight will feel so fluent. As for tank Knight the playstyle is so slow and clunkly but thats expected for a giant tin can.

[SolidJelly]

O yeah I forgot...

 

KNIGHT DPS IS DA BEST WAAAAARRRRGGHHHHH BROTHER OF MUSCLES WARRRRRRGHHHHHHH

EVERYONE GO DPS KNIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kalandros]

Its a matter of perspective. I find Sorcerers dull and boring to play.

My wiz on the other hand is way more exciting and fun, also nerf Teleport haha its so awesome.

 

As for Warrior, I do enjoy it but find it a bit restrictive.

I'll see how I enjoy Knight when I reach 50.

[Bronx]

"Your skills are merely 1 tool in the toolbox." -Captain America

[Hoshizuka]

41/41 agi/int extreme battle tactic hybrid knight.  tanking bapho hard with crafted -_- EZPZ. not even full blue geared.

[SonicTMP]

Not really sure what you're trying to prove at this point. No classes skill tree is overly complex. There's a basic build everyone follows with personal tweaks.

 

Lets look at some negatives:

Endure has double the CD of aura shield.

Defender is required as a tank warrior and you don't equal up in stats until a combo of CoA n/h armor.

Parrying is great at low stats but you need to respec out of it since defender will let you hit the parry softcap at high gear.

Berserk is only up half the time vs Conc's full uptime.

Pommel is almost double the CD of Shield bash.

 

Warrior might have a few more choices but you don't have enough points to get everything and they require an extra skill to be a tank.

LuBu suffers from this exact problem. The warrior tree forces you to take every skill if you want the best/required ones at the bottom. So he's looking for ways to make the best effective tank while still taking the fun skills.

 

It's a trade off and sadly warrior tanks require more skills to do the job. Now switch the idea to a dps warrior. The main rotation would be pretty much the same a dps knight. Bash/AS/Rage as main rotation. Use berserk when it's up. If you got it then bowling bash for rage gain, like shield bash. Better AoE damage vs less group utility since no SF.

 

Now as what you might find a more interesting rotation? That's just personal choice. The game itself isn't overly complex with it's classes. You're missing like 3-4 filler skills and extra procs like WoW has. I have a monk alt I've been working on and it's has less to do that my knight. 2 buttons for main rotation. A minute between using power skills with their big hit having a long as hell animation and prone to missing. Some people like it cause the punch animations are very fast and spammable.

 

So to each their own.

[Bronx]

I thought this was Knight discussion.

[Kalandros]

So, from that Mini Mongi screenshot, we can gather that a full DPS Knight taking a DPS spot is not a wasted DPS slot? What really shines from it is the extra (if you got a Knight Tank on top) or the addition (if you lack a Knight tank) of Shield Fortress for the raid.

 

Legit Rock Star Heroes (Culvert Band) has triple AoE unless you can burn one of the 3 fast enough - 3 very big hits that are reduced 25% EACH is insane.

 

Anyway, I'm gonna try it and if they really don't want to bring me "to anything serious" (as my guild leader told me :[ ) then I'll hook my DPS Knight to another guild I guess~

[SonicTMP]

Pretty much its just a matter of who has better gear once you have your main INT gear.  In a tank and spank encounter where you don't need to move a dps knight can keep up quite well. Anything that requires a lot of movement or add switching will impact your dps. Using SF will drop it as well but the utility is great for those big room wide AoE's.

 

During Culvert band I picked up the adds since they had so little HP I could actually GC them down. So I didn't have good boss time dps. On Mini Mongi we all had to focus adds first so jumping to boss was evened out.

 

If you want to prove what you can do, get a couple geared guildies and go to the raid boss scarecrows in arena. I haven't done this yet but you should be able to just sit there and go nuts on it, then watch threat meter for dps.

 

 

[Yoruno]

I'm in the "If you're a knight get Shield Fortress 5/5 NO MATTER WHAT" faction.

 

Neway, with a build that has max level Bash, Aura Strike, Battle Tactics, Aura Blade, Aura Mastery, Concentration and Shield Cannon, the only way I think dps knight buff the damage further would be fine-tuning the ratio of attack power, Crit rate and BT crit damage rate.

I don't know how far a knight can go with tuning those 3 stats without severely gimping one another, It'd be nice if someone could do some theorycrafting on this part. =x

[SolidJelly]

I'm in the "If you're a knight get Shield Fortress 5/5 NO MATTER WHAT" faction.

 

Neway, with a build that has max level Bash, Aura Strike, Battle Tactics, Aura Blade, Aura Mastery, Concentration and Shield Cannon, the only way I think dps knight buff the damage further would be fine-tuning the ratio of attack power, Crit rate and BT crit damage rate.

I don't know how far a knight can go with tuning those 3 stats without severely gimping one another, It'd be nice if someone could do some theorycrafting on this part. =x

Get better gear, Pump it up pills, VIP, etc.

THEN YOU'LL BE DPSING LIKE LUBU RAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR DPS KNIGHT DMG TOO STRONK RAWSRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Bronx]

I'm in the "If you're a knight get Shield Fortress 5/5 NO MATTER WHAT" faction.

 

 

 

 

 

Cool bro. Let me go reset right now! No, not really. Keep typing in caps though, it makes you sound super serious. 

 

All jokes aside, I do believe SF is a great skill for Raids. It gives Knights the kind of party utility that other tanks in the game lack. I've had it in my build at least twice, however, I have deemed it unnecessary for my PvP focused build. SF, while making you a near indestructible juggernaut for 10 seconds, renders you immobile, and prevents you from using potions. Being unable to move or pot, I've found, is more a hindrance in PvP, than it is advantageous. I can't really afford to spend 5 skill points in a skill I never use. I refuse to spend any more zeny/cash on skill reset, unless it gets to the point where I absolutely must have SF in my build.

 

In the end, you have to build for yourself, and your needs. If you plan to raid a lot, then SF would be great to have. 

Edited by Bronx, 03 July 2013 - 12:51 AM.

[SonicTMP]

I don't recall him saying YOU need to get it. He just posted his thoughts on where he stands. You shouldn't take it seriously against your build.

[Bronx]

Read my edit, I was only trolling in the first sentence.

[ExeltusPendragon]

All jokes aside, I do believe SF is a great skill for Raids. It gives Knights the kind of party utility that other tanks in the game lack.

I wonder how it'll pan out in WoE. I could see it being useful there since the rest of the raid would benefit from it.

[Yoruno]

I SHALL TAKE ON YOUR WORD AND PUMP MORE MUSCLE IN MY LETTERS SO THAT I SOUND MORE SERIOUS THAN EVER.

Ahem. I see where you're coming from though, in a fight where its solo Free-for-all SF is a waste. The fact that you are as good as lagged for 10sec means people whacking at you with no concern of getting whacked back for that 10 secs..Aura shield is a much better skill in this scenario.

Though if you plan to participate in WoE (since it is pvp) I think you'll want SF- exeltus ninja'd.... But yeah. 25% dmg reduc for everyone in your squad?

On that note, a team with 3-4 knight could literally buff everyone with that 25% reduc every 30-40 secs.

[AlexaWhite]

On that note, a team with 3-4 knight could literally buff everyone with that 25% reduc every 30-40 secs.

 

If ther is ofensive-knights with SF - so they can have near 25% vigor or more and can use SF every 10-20sec. Potion pitcher, aura heal and that group can be solid autonomius team O_O

Edited by AlexaWhite, 03 July 2013 - 02:16 AM.

[Yoruno]

If ther is ofensive-knights with SF - so they can have near 25% vigor or more and can use SF every 10-20sec. Potion pitcher, aura heal and that group can be solid autonomius team O_O

 

This. I approve of this so much. Also hurray for alchemists!

Though for aura heal to be alittle more viable the knights will have to buff the base AP too... probably. Atm i got 3/3 aura heal on my offtank-ish knight and im loving the crit heals. its basically 5-10% hp recovery every 20 secs. Not falling that far behind compared to tension relax if i crit enough.. Cos of my low int i still cant tell if it works on aura heal crits. If it does though dps knights with good AP, crit and BT can probably outheal tension relax.

 

now using that buff on warriors with defender, that's gonna be a solid 55% dmg reduc just from those 2 skills. adding endure onto that is... now that's a scary thought.

[AlexaWhite]

Aura Heal affected by Battle Tactics. Curently i have +80% crits power and usual Heal does ~300-400, critical heal do ~900.

UPDATE

I tested more and by new and more precious look - Battle Tactics do not affect Aura Heal.

Edited by AlexaWhite, 03 July 2013 - 11:55 PM.