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[Balance, Design, Appeal] Monks Really Need To Get Attention~


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#376 Rukaroa

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:34 AM

Max lv TSS debuff isn't increasing damage as advertised. It says 20% damage increase to skills, but it feels closer to 15% instead. Someone test it please while I'm work. And don't forget to take the 50% damage reduction on days mobs into account.
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#377 DuBisk

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:42 AM

So, you monk guys are going dps now? I think that would be the best solution, I have a tank monk, but its defense, dodge and parry rate does not seem to be the same anymore, and it's sooooooo slow. 


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#378 Rukaroa

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 06:44 AM

I'm leaning DPS for now but not full blown DPS. I want to get my Flee and Protection Ki back eventually.

Edited by Rukaroa, 19 December 2013 - 06:44 AM.

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#379 Lukiner

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:02 AM

sooo sadly monks are now the only (human) melee class that don't have self-heal... even assassins have very strong self-heal with low cd now

 

not to mention no party serious/useful buff -_-

 

Gravity devs were clearly drunk when they were "balancing/buffing" monk for AoV or just WP forgot to show them list of stuff that monk lacks from this thread/first post


Edited by Lukiner, 03 January 2014 - 03:03 AM.

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#380 DuBisk

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:19 AM

Spiritual Cadence not working is a serious problem... monk is totally useless as it is right now.


Edited by DuBisk, 03 January 2014 - 04:20 AM.

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#381 Meconopsis

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:12 PM

Spiritual Cadence not working is a serious problem... monk is totally useless as it is right now.


I wouldn't say monks are completely useless because of Spiritual Cadence. They might have less damage due to it, but they're workable, although given the state of the game, that's not saying much.

Although I don't play anymore, I think monks at the very least have gained appeal. If the game survives and players start coming back, I think the monk population might grow from what it used to be.
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#382 hunterxros

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:05 PM

even though we switch our monk to dps type, it's not enough to hold threat...  :sob:  and i was thinking what is our role today... we have poor threat holder and poor dps... we have no party buff....  no support skill to the raid....  no super aoe....  NO MONEY.. NO HONEY.. NO SEX APPEAL....  JUST NOBODY :heh:


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#383 Meconopsis

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:22 PM

even though we switch our monk to dps type, it's not enough to hold threat... :sob: and i was thinking what is our role today... we have poor threat holder and poor dps... we have no party buff.... no support skill to the raid.... no super aoe.... NO MONEY.. NO HONEY.. NO SEX APPEAL.... JUST NOBODY :heh:


This was the case back when this thread was made pre-AoV. Design-wise monks in this game are more confusing than any of the other classes to figure out because now they're not the bulkiest tank anymore after AoV and their damage was never good to begin with for a tank to hold threat.

Edited by Meconopsis, 03 January 2014 - 04:23 PM.

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#384 Leinzan

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 07:49 AM

So hey, after the lastests patch, 1/8, hows the Monk life going for you?

 

Leaving aside the incredibly ridiculous amount of MP required for Lvling and the fact that currently AoE isn't really a Monk's specialty, specially if you add some element (I mean, I crash even with single target skills), what do you think of the current firepower of a Monk?

 

 

I find myself doing some comfy (and quite constant) 6k <Heavy Tackle> crits, 3.2k <Raging Blow> crits, and 3k <Crushing Blow> crits on dayr golems (with element applied) without any sort of ATK modifier aside from <Steel Body>. Which if I compare to my Rogue thats quite the beast like strikes O___o!! I mean, that bastard does 3.2k <Double Attack> crits but takes longer to do his Combo Points finishers.

 

A golem usually is down in 3-6 seconds with this... and I have to admit that my only colo gear are the pants, the rest is either T1 H raid or Menace gear (including my weapon) so I know my DPS output isn't the best. I was the most worried about the damage I would be taking if I got mobbed (given that I can only focus on beating one oponent at a time, but I found that Monk's defense with Steel Body alone (cause I found <Iron Skin> a tad useless) is surprisingly very good, making the Monk very sturdy and long lasting. Combining this with <Ymir's Child> transformation for a full heal when on crit HP and both ATK/Move Speed boost Golems fall like domino pieces, allowing me to last for runs of 8 or so minutes of non-stopping battles.

 

Well... pots are pretty much useless anyway, so it was a concern to me how long can the Monk last farming :/

 

Anyway, Monk isn't my main, in fact, is the 4th one I play... so I was wondering whats  the opinion of those who are more attached to this class about this latests patch since <Spiritual Cadence> got fixed at long last?


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#385 DatMONKey

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 10:25 AM

It's hard to say.

 

Outside of Dayr desert My damage has seen a significant increase since my INT finally got converted to ATK power. I have no issues controlling threat and my big attacks hit for even bigger numbers than I anticipated.

Our dot from Crushing Blow seems to be scaling off of something improperly since the damage is 1/3 of what it should be, and even then it's still double digits...

 

I have not had any trouble with leveling other than the amount of time it takes for a class like ours. My current spec has Lightning Crush maxed and it deals about 1200-1400 damage non crit on Dair mobs. With the addition of Elemental attribute I can now kill more mobs faster and my LC does 2.5k to 5k per mob, 10 targets max at a time. Since it's more efficient I can get about 120% more exp from a single Master Battle Manual. I'm sure I could get even more efficiency if I had good add control pets.

 

The thing is, any boost in power I have gained is non existent in Dair. I do exactly the same amount of damage to all mobs I did since the first update. Not even a 100 or 50 point increase in damage. I don't know if that's particular to Monks or what, but it's kind of disappointing.

 

I will say that Farming still sucks somewhat because I have no self-heal and potions were over nerfed so I can't even get a decent amount of healing and have to rely on Explorer reds. Even with Master Tokens giving out 10 per 10, I am a slow farming class in the first place.

 

I have not given Colo a spin yet because I doubt they balanced it with the new stat gains in mind. I don't have HIT, Dodge, ATK and last time I checked my Armor doesn't even work.

 

So in all I am happy that my damage was restored I got a taste of Monk's new power, but I won't be sure until I wear Master gear.

 

 

EDIT: The removal of AoE on Heavy Tackle really slowed us down as well.


Edited by DatMONKey, 10 January 2014 - 10:48 AM.

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#386 LeighMustang

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:40 PM

Ok so something I am still confused about in terms of stat distribution in Monk:

For whatever build I choose to go, Should I still split STR and INT in the points I manually distribute? When I say manually distribute, I mean the points you get to move around from a level up. Before the AOV update, it made sense to do this. As you progressed up a stat the value for it would cost you more of the points you gained on a level up. Currently, no matter how far up you pump the stat, It is still worth 1 point.

 

I still understand why INT is beneficial from Spiritual Cadence to my build and I'm not eliminating it. I'll still be supplying it from Cards and Gears. But I don't see the sense in let's say getting 15 STR and 15 INT over just 30 STR OR 30 INT.

 

Maybe there is something I'm not seeing or understanding but if any other veteran Monk can shed some light on this it'd be appreciated.


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#387 Leinzan

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:36 PM

Well, basically thats how it is, the adventage offered by «Spiritual Cadence» is now non-existent for the current base stats.

 

It will only come to play from Cards, Titles, or Gears that benefit both INT and STR.


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#388 DatMONKey

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:50 PM

At least for me it was a matter of aesthetics. Gear gave stats evenly, cards could too and so I split my STR and INT gains evenly.

All in STR or INT could make you reliant on a particular party buff as well.

I believe in the early stages of the game, before we got resets given out like candy, you were stuck with the stat builds you had. Leveling as an Aco you benefit from INT and to make your INT not go to waste Spiritual Cadence was conceived. At this point I'm not sure why they decided to split our ATK across STR and INT per each gear piece rather make than give STR/AGI to 3 pieces like Weapon, Top, Glove and INT/AGI to Bottom Hat and Shoes. In the end that has led to us Monks suffering various design problems.

 

Currently I am putting it all in AGI to compensate for our lack of AGI in comparison to other Master Level gear. This team our trade off is a significant raw damage boost in comparison to other classes. If you inspect any Master level gear you will see that on head and foot gear each class gets their primary damage stat and AGI. For those very same pieces Monks get about the same amount of the primary damage stat in STR and instead of AGI we get INT, and more INT then they would get AGI. For example:

 

 

Desert Storm Chain Visor

81 STR

61 AGI

61 VIT

475 DEF

 

Desert Storm Uniform Hat

84 STR

70 INT

60 VIT

166 DEF

 

A War gets 243 ATK and 183 Crit. We get 308 ATK but no extra crit and so I choose to supplement the future trend of our gear since we get a nice boost in power. Not to mention AGI gives more HIT and will help with your damage mitigation via dodge. Especially since we took a serious hit to our parry.

 

So that's my take on things.


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#389 Leinzan

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:01 PM

The party buff is an interesting point, however, speaking of gears, recently I managed (somehow) to make the Menace Uniform Shoes for my Monk, just to find out that in addition to some STR, INT and VIT, I got a little more DEF and... casting time? whaaaa??


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#390 DatMONKey

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:58 PM

It's all part of the new stat distribution on future gear.

Rather than getting minor stat upgrades on every single piece of gear your stats are spread out in bigger chunks across your pieces. I believe most of our DEF now comes from the Top and Bottom while we get more VIT and WIS more evenly distributed across all our stuff.

 

I haven't seen any "tank" armor for us in the new sets. instead we get more cooldown, auto attack speed and crit.


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#391 Meconopsis

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 07:15 PM

So I guess monk is now a DPS class in the developer's mind now?


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#392 Leinzan

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 07:26 PM

Well, comparing it to my Rogue, it really is competent DPS wise... altho its finisher «Asura Strike» happens once every basillion years, they can get a power boost on top of a power boost on top of another power boost and a cherry to crown it.

 

Well, specially if you max the 3 base attack skills, «Raging Blow», «Crushing Blow» and «Heavy Tackle» you can cycle them non-stop even if you have no Vigor O___o;;

 

Heavy Tackle on its own is just about as powerful as my 5 Combo Points Level 1 «Deadly Blow» from my Rogue (which is full colo) but happens twice as fast. And Asura, under the right circumstances could easily be a 30~70k Critical Strike... specially since "Internal Wound" effect from Heavy Tackle affects even bosses O__o!!


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#393 DatMONKey

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:32 AM

So I guess monk is now a DPS class in the developer's mind now?

 

It's hard to say. I don't know what they did to the formula but I've lost 8% flat DEF and 38% parry. To be honest tank stats on gear always sucked, but they added up and were substantial by the time you got the AoD H and Chaos. Djoser and Menace crafts lack tank stats, Osiris doesn't seem to have it either and Parry on Sapphire accessories is pretty pathetic. We don't seem to gain much parry from those small numbers either so I can't tell what they want to do.

 

The only thing I can say for sure is that they wanted to increase every class' damage output.

 

Well, comparing it to my Rogue, it really is competent DPS wise... altho its finisher «Asura Strike» happens once every basillion years, they can get a power boost on top of a power boost on top of another power boost and a cherry to crown it.

 

Well, specially if you max the 3 base attack skills, «Raging Blow», «Crushing Blow» and «Heavy Tackle» you can cycle them non-stop even if you have no Vigor O___o;;

 

Heavy Tackle on its own is just about as powerful as my 5 Combo Points Level 1 «Deadly Blow» from my Rogue (which is full colo) but happens twice as fast. And Asura, under the right circumstances could easily be a 30~70k Critical Strike... specially since "Internal Wound" effect from Heavy Tackle affects even bosses O__o!!

 

To be honest the biggest spikes in your damage came from the increased base on Heavy Tackle (up to 61.7% from 47%) the bonus modifiers on Guillotine and the buff to TSS. I'm not sure what you're getting at with vigor helpig out the monk rotation though. Ideally you only want to use Crushing blow to get 2 spirit when it's off CD and TSS often enough to keep it's buff up. Other than that you get max dps with RB and HT. HT and CB have no cooldown. RB lost about 3 seconds which does allow for some faster combos, but the vigor lowering the GF and Fury cooldown is our biggest benefit In my opinion.Though I would still prefer a toggle style buff for Fury like Knight's concentration .


Edited by DatMONKey, 13 January 2014 - 12:34 AM.

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#394 Leinzan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 07:52 AM

To be honest the biggest spikes in your damage came from the increased base on Heavy Tackle (up to 61.7% from 47%) the bonus modifiers on Guillotine and the buff to TSS. I'm not sure what you're getting at with vigor helpig out the monk rotation though. Ideally you only want to use Crushing blow to get 2 spirit when it's off CD and TSS often enough to keep it's buff up. Other than that you get max dps with RB and HT. HT and CB have no cooldown. RB lost about 3 seconds which does allow for some faster combos, but the vigor lowering the GF and Fury cooldown is our biggest benefit In my opinion.Though I would still prefer a toggle style buff for Fury like Knight's concentration .

Yea, I meant you can use them like that even if you have 0% Vigor. Guess I typed it a bit confusing :/

I also agree that all the long CD skills benefit the most from Vigor, specially <Asura Strike>

 

Well, thanks to <Crushing Blow> now downing its CD as low as 3 seconds on level 10 you can do it in a constant rotation of

Raging Blow -> Crushing Blow -> Heavy Tackle

instead of Raging Blow x 3 -> Heavy Tackle

Which means you do <Heavy Tackle> 1 second faster. By the time you do a Heavy Tackle with 3 <Raging Blows> in the old rotation you are already doing a Raging Blow after Heavy Tackle in the new rotation.

 

Also for the sake of DPS, I don't think it is good to use <Throw Spirit Sphere> every time it cooldowns, since in most cases it is on level 1, its ATK% modifier is way lower than Raging Blow or Crushing Blow, so if its effect is still in play, I think its better to save it for when you think its about to run out or when it actually does, replacing the Raging Blow for it (specially since there is this new bug that makes projectiles fly from behind you or never hit or instantly hit your target, which makes this kind of skills very unreliable :/).


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#395 DatMONKey

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:15 PM

Indeed. That kind of combo would be nice fast and smooth DPS. Max rank CB is pretty good damage. It's just that it's too expensive of a build to invest in until later levels when we have more skill points.

For a Level 1 TSS you can get 3 HTs before you need to reapply it. For max Rank you can get 5 or 6 in before reapplying. Personally I wish something like GF or HT refreshed your TSS so you didn't have to use the skill that much. It's damage is nice, but it's one of our slower skills.


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#396 Leinzan

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:10 PM

Well, a maxed level <Throw Spirit Sphere> is actually stronger than a maxed level <Raging Blow>, so maybe sending it at every CD isn't bad at those heights... well, dunno, maybe the animation would get in the way. And its not like we have that many points...

 

Speaking of points there is also the matter of <Iron Skin>.

I went ahead and reskilled a few times to see its effect only to observe that once applied <Steel Body>, Iron Skin is not more than 3-4% of my final DEF, and thats way too low for 4 Skill Points :/

 

This means that the DEF offered by Iron Skin is not considered in the DEF tripled up by Steel Body, and thats quite sad :/

Well, I might not see much value to it now, but Im not so sure how effective and valuable it would be if I had at least the full Menace set or higher which boasts of their heaps of DEF pumps ups.

 

Maybe a full tank Monk or a DPS monk without Steel Body wouldn't ever think about dropping this skill, but I believe that if you are DPS oriented with perma Steel Body this skill isn't worth that much. And that might free some skill points.


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#397 noobslayer48

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:12 PM

Actually you do not want a buff like knights concentration now that the damage formula has changed. weapon is more important which buffs monks because monk gloves has decent weapon damage

 

in fact, steel body is now a reasonable skill


Edited by noobslayer48, 13 January 2014 - 03:13 PM.

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#398 DatMONKey

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 07:00 PM

Well, a maxed level <Throw Spirit Sphere> is actually stronger than a maxed level <Raging Blow>, so maybe sending it at every CD isn't bad at those heights... well, dunno, maybe the animation would get in the way. And its not like we have that many points...

 

Speaking of points there is also the matter of <Iron Skin>.

I went ahead and reskilled a few times to see its effect only to observe that once applied <Steel Body>, Iron Skin is not more than 3-4% of my final DEF, and thats way too low for 4 Skill Points :/

 

This means that the DEF offered by Iron Skin is not considered in the DEF tripled up by Steel Body, and thats quite sad :/

Well, I might not see much value to it now, but Im not so sure how effective and valuable it would be if I had at least the full Menace set or higher which boasts of their heaps of DEF pumps ups.

 

Maybe a full tank Monk or a DPS monk without Steel Body wouldn't ever think about dropping this skill, but I believe that if you are DPS oriented with perma Steel Body this skill isn't worth that much. And that might free some skill points.

 

Still a 10/10 RB hits harder than any of those other skills.

In regards to Steel Body and Iron Skin, I've been playing around to test some things and I've found some pretty interesting but annoying things out.

  • Right now Steel Body takes only my base DEF from gear, doubles that value and adds it to my total DEF
  • Iron Skin's bonus DEF is added to our base DEF but it is not being applied in Steel Body. I don't think it was applied to Steel Body before the patch either.
  • Earth Shield gives bonus DEF scaled off my base DEF from gear. It is not being modified by Steel Body or Iron Skin. I know for a fact that it did get modified by our passives before AoV so that needs to be fixed.
  • Food buffs are still multiplied by Steel Body and Iron Skin. This is the same as before AoV.

From a full set Green Seed Armor I have 664 DEF.

  • With 5/5 Iron Skin my DEF is 996 [1.5*(664)]
  • With 5/5 Iron Skin and Steel Body my DEF is 2324 [1.5*(664) + 2*(664)]
  • With 5/5 Iron Skin, Steel Body and Earth Shield my DEF is 2457 [1.5*(664) + 2*(664) + 0.2*(664)]
  • With 5/5 Iron Skin, Steel Body and Soul Shifting BBQ (+45 DEF) my DEF is 2482 [1.5*(664+45) + 2*(664+45)]

Note that the one buff food ends up giving me more DEF than the Sorc buff because it is actually working properly with our passives. The more I investigate the more I see that we are missing a lot of our stats. I'm not sure how they tampered with Monk so much to break our Spirit Cadence but they need to fix the interaction with Iron Skin and Steel Body in regards to Earth Shield. I'll find out from a BM if they actually get as much DEF from Earth Shield as they should.

 

But yeah, for right now we can safely reduce Iron Skin to 1/5 and not see much of a penalty, at least until they fix the scaling and use those points towards something else. Still there is no reason to ever not have Steel Body on.

 

Actually you do not want a buff like knights concentration now that the damage formula has changed. weapon is more important which buffs monks because monk gloves has decent weapon damage

 

in fact, steel body is now a reasonable skill

 

The thing I want is on demand upkeep of Fury. We are restricted by it's cooldown and GF can't be cast otherwise.

Steel Body was always a great skill. There is really no reason not to use it.


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