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[Balance, Design, Appeal] Monks Really Need To Get Attention~


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#326 NuwaChan

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 08:53 AM

When we say gear is bad here is an example of how a monks dps suffers thus their threat suffers.

Notice how a war gets +13 str (monk int + str is 164) and +425 patk

 

equip_twohandsword_24_g4.png
Honor Knightage Defend Great Sword
Requirements
Level: 50
Gender: unisex
Job: Warrior
Properties
STR: 177.0 (88.5)
DEX: 20.0 (10.0)
WIL: 46.0 (23.0)
VIT: 143.0 (71.5)
Physical attack power: 829.0 (414.5)
Automatic attack cool down: 3.0 (1.5)
Automatic attack range: 2.0 (1.0)
Evade level: 113.0 (56.5)
Guard level: 57.0 (28.5)
: 864.0 (432.0)
 

equip_fist_15_g4.png
Honor Knightage Defend Knuckles
Requirements
Level: 50
Gender: unisex
Job: Monk
Properties
STR: 82.0 (41.0)
INT: 82.0 (41.0)
WIL: 46.0 (23.0)
VIT: 143.0 (71.5)
Physical attack power: 404.0 (202.0)
Automatic attack cool down: 1.4 (0.7)
Automatic attack range: 2.0 (1.0)
Evade level: 113.0 (56.5)
Guard level: 57.0 (28.5)
: 864.0 (432.0)

 


Edited by NuwaChan, 28 October 2013 - 09:01 AM.

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#327 Lukiner

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:06 AM

Although I commented this in another threat, I repeat it here as well:

 

No buff

Not an issue. (...)

 

No Agi:

Rather than AGI, you get an additional boni from INT instead. (...)

 

No Self-Heal:

It''s a compromise. That's why you get Summon Spirit Sphere instead. (...)


No Crowd Control:

(...) why you talk about AoE skills in terms of CC: stuns, knockdowns, silences, slows, etc...

 

No Damage over Time:

Actually, I don't think this is such a big issue. If you really depend on DoT to keep the treat up, you're doing something wrong (...)

 

Permanent -10% Attack Power:

This is comparable to the Warrior Defender skill. If you want to take the defensive role, you have to accept a damage debuff. (...)

/// LIKE MONK HAVE OTHER CHOICES LOL... show me Monk perm DPS stance/aura oh wait he don't have it ///

 

Damage is bad:

That's simply not true. (...)

 

Gear is bad:

Gear isn't bad. (...)

 

/// suddenly WARRIOR WEAPON VS MONK WEAPON ... DUN DUN DUN ///

 

Your suggestions:

... are all aweful in my opinion (...)

 

Final notes:

Well, it seems that ppl just don't understand the concept behind a monk... or simply ignore it (...)

 

^

YxdfR5C.gif

 

this post made me feel sick... ouh my stomach :( I think I'm gona die, someone call ambulance!

 

so you totally negated everything from this thread and for you Monk is balanced or even GODLY/OP class and he maybe even need to be nerfed. well watch out monk players (aka few of them) we have badass over here

 

I wonder why monk is one of the less played/popular classes and he is in bottom pvp/colo tier (together with BM) if in your opinion he is so good, perfect and special among the melee tanks (I wanted to use "bruiser" but this title works perfectly for Warriors since he is the only one that is more close to be bulky dps from all the 4 tanks)

 

also monk is so awesome because he have only one role build = tank (no hybrid, not even dps... hahahaha monk dps oh man that's good one)? ow yeah pure "awesome".

yup, yup... I totally don't miss the combo or asura monks/champs from RO1... playing tanky aka derp brick Monk without CC/heal/buffs/etc.. makes me feel so good... awww yisss

 

bb1BKtu.jpg

nope

 

 


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#328 Greven79

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:34 AM

who cares about monk's higher def when you want to give Knights a 30 seconds (60s cd) aura shield (20% dmg reduction). You're screwing Monks over even more, because Flee is crap, and while Parry is good, warriors reach the parry cap fairly easily

Basically, if regarded over the course of time, dodging every 5th attack (20% dodge chance) is the same as a 20% damage reduction. Both have their advantages. F.e. if you would receive 1k damage and you have 1k HP left, a 20% damage reduction keeps you alive.  However, if the attack would deal 1.5k damage instead, a 20% reduction would be pointless and therefore a 20% dodge chance could at least keep you alive by chance.

 

So Flee isn't crap, only the silly 10sec duration makes it underwhelming if compared to the 30sec of any damage-increasing skill.

 

The 40% Parry chance also grants a 20% damage reduction if regarded in a long term view.

 

Let's say there are 10 attacks that deal 100 damage each:

 

20% damage reduction => 10 hits with 80 damage each = 800 damage taken

20% dodge chance => 2 attacks miss => 8x 100 damage = 800 damage taken

40% parry chance => 6 deal 100 damage, 4 deal 50 (half damage) = 600 + 200 (4x50) = 800 damage taken

 

Pls enlighten me where there is the great inbalance.... all three reduce the damage down from 1000 to 800.

 

And since you compared it to the Knight.... you still take less damage due to a higher defense. And you still have higher lifepoints. The calculation is the following:

 

Knight: Double defense values compared to the monk for every equipment. An additional 40% defense bonus due to the shield: Uses Aura Armor to get an additional 5% damage reduction.

Monk: Less base defense but up to 250% defense boost.

 

=> Assume a base defense of 800, then the knight would have 1120 (with shield).

=> Monk would have 400 + 250% = 1400 or in other words a 25% defense bonus [used 10 skill points]

 

We should all know that the 5% damage reduction (Aura Armor) is equal to a flat bonus of 5x 44 to defense, In other words: +220 defense. To formulate it in other words, if something would increase your defense by 220, it would result in ~5% damage reduction. In the example given above, it would be 1340 vs 1400. Now you can calculate when in the game the Monk really got the edge over the Knight in regard of defense.

 

you can never ever compare defensive skills to offensive skills. Defensive stats cap out at 70%, offensive skills can be stacked to continue increasing forever (+30% dmg skill here, +10% STR buff there, +10% guild skills here, new OP p2w title released there, etc.)

 

You can always compare these two skills. The difference here is that one of them is a flat %-decrease and the other one is a fractional factor. Therefore, dealing double damage is compensated by blocking 50% the damage. Blocking 20% of the damage can compensate a +25% damage bonus.

 

The cap doesn't really hurt either. I've never seen a character with a 70% damage reduction or 70% dodge chance. The only 'thing' that might hit the cap is a Warrior with parry gear who is is using Defender. But since 70% parry rate equals 35% dodge or a 35% damage reduction (see above), it's not that problematic either. This would mean roughly 50% damage increase compensates the 70% parry rate.


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#329 Greven79

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:40 AM

 

When we say gear is bad here is an example of how a monks dps suffers thus their threat suffers.

Notice how a war gets +13 str (monk int + str is 164) and +425 patk

 

Patk isn't an issue here, because the attack speed matters. A weapon that deals 1000 damage with an attack speed of 1.0 (once per second) has an DPS value of ... welll 1000. Another weapon that deals 500 damage (50%) but has an attack speed of 0.5 (twice per second) has ... wait ... also a DPS value of 1000. So what the designers took into account is the simple fact that the Monk has a faster attack speed.

 

The lack of 13 STR shouldn't be a real issue here. Well, it might hurt a bit, but cards, titles, costumes, etc. might give a bonus to both STR and INT... so the Monk benefits twice. Therefore, I would assume that the designers took this into account and reduced the bonus given by gear to compensate.


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#330 mysticalre

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:41 AM

Let's say there are 10 attacks that deal 100 damage each:

 

20% damage reduction => 10 hits with 80 damage each = 800 damage taken

20% dodge chance => 2 attacks miss => 8x 100 damage = 800 damage taken

40% parry chance => 6 deal 100 damage, 4 deal 50 (half damage) = 600 + 200 (4x50) = 800 damage taken

 

Pls enlighten me where there is the great inbalance.... all three reduce the damage down from 1000 to 800.

 

I won't bother

 

Instead, I support your suggestion because my raid group has a Knight, you can figure out why %Dmg Reduction > RNG dodge yourself


Edited by mysticalre, 28 October 2013 - 09:41 AM.

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#331 NuwaChan

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:52 AM

Automatic attack cool down effects basic attacks not skills (so if a Monk and War strip and have a fist fight the monk wins)

 

WHile greven79 is troling a bit, at least this keeps the thread alive.


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#332 Greven79

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:02 AM

I wonder why monk is one of the less played/popular classes and he is in bottom pvp/colo tier (together with BM) if in your opinion he is so good, perfect and special among the melee tanks (I wanted to use "bruiser" but this title works perfectly for Warriors since he is the only one that is more close to be bulky dps from all the 4 tanks)

 

If people lack of arguments, there is one security wire ... and this is called Colo.

 

I therefore applause you for not even discuss like an adult person, but rather diminish your statement to PvP only and even restrict yourself to a single form of it: a point-based system called Colo.

 

Did you ever consider the fact that both rare tank classes (BM and Monks) are also the two classes that you can't play right from the beginning - that are only available at lvl 25?

 

I've chosen to play a Priest and not a Monk simply because I was lucky with the gameplay of an acolyte. I found a party easily, it was easy to level and so on. So why would I risk all that by choosing the Monk class instead? Likewise, if you play a Ranger and you get used to place traps, attack with a bow, etc., why would you risk all that by choosing a Beastmaster?

 

All I can say is that both Monks and Beastmaster perform VERY well in raids. There is not a single sign of being underpowered, uncomparable or whatsoever.

 

 

also monk is so awesome because he have only one role build = tank (no hybrid, not even dps... hahahaha monk dps oh man that's good one)? ow yeah pure "awesome".

yup, yup... I totally don't miss the combo or asura monks/champs from RO1... playing tanky aka derp brick Monk without CC/heal/buffs/etc.. makes me feel so good... awww yiss

 
This is also funny, as it shows a lack of either concentration or reading abilities. I've never addressed this issue. I haven't done this, because I accepted the lack of versatility by the fact that they had to limit themself to the remaining space in the skill menu, basically because it's a class that starts out with lvl 25. How would a Ranger would look like, if the designers would have chosen to implement this one as lvl 25+ class.Then, they would have to kick some of the skills as well... 22 skills for the ranger vs. 15 skills for the Beastmaster.
 
So choose 7 skills to kick from the ranger skill list and we can talk about "versatility" of that Ranger class again.

 


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#333 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:05 AM

 

If people lack of arguments, there is one security wire ... and this is called Colo.

 

I therefore applause you for not even discuss like an adult person, but rather diminish your statement to PvP only and even restrict yourself to a single form of it: a point-based system called Colo.

 

Did you ever consider the fact that both rare tank classes (BM and Monks) are also the two classes that you can't play right from the beginning - that are only available at lvl 25?

 

I've chosen to play a Priest and not a Monk simply because I was lucky with the gameplay of an acolyte. I found a party easily, it was easy to level and so on. So why would I risk all that by choosing the Monk class instead? Likewise, if you play a Ranger and you get used to place traps, attack with a bow, etc., why would you risk all that by choosing a Beastmaster?

 

All I can say is that both Monks and Beastmaster perform VERY well in raids. There is not a single sign of being underpowered, uncomparable or whatsoever.

 

 

 
This is also funny, as it shows a lack of either concentration or reading abilities. I've never addressed this issue. I haven't done this, because I accepted the lack of versatility by the fact that they had to limit themself to the remaining space in the skill menu, basically because it's a class that starts out with lvl 25. How would a Ranger would look like, if the designers would have chosen to implement this one as lvl 25+ class.Then, they would have to kick some of the skills as well... 22 skills for the ranger vs. 15 skills for the Beastmaster.
 
So choose 7 skills to kick from the ranger skill list and we can talk about "versatility" of that Ranger class again.

 

 

so troll, wow


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#334 Greven79

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:07 AM

Automatic attack cool down effects basic attacks not skills (so if a Monk and War strip and have a fist fight the monk wins)

 

WHile greven79 is troling a bit, at least this keeps the thread alive.

 

You can still see the different animation and attack times between a Monk and a Warrior. So just take a timer and messure how often a Monk attack duing 1 minute using Raging Blow and compare this to a Warrior using Bash.

 

BTW: I'm not trolling in any way. I've given detailed informations, why I disagree with the statements made in the original post. That's it.

 

If you feel like being an adult - now I'm trolling - feel free to pick a specific argument (f.e. dodge vs. damage reduction) I've given and prove me wrong.

 


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#335 Imhorny

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 10:09 AM

Patk isn't an issue here, because the attack speed matters. A weapon that deals 1000 damage with an attack speed of 1.0 (once per second) has an DPS value of ... welll 1000. Another weapon that deals 500 damage (50%) but has an attack speed of 0.5 (twice per second) has ... wait ... also a DPS value of 1000. So what the designers took into account is the simple fact that the Monk has a faster attack speed.

Ppl get confused with this all the time.

 

Totally random Sage advice:

Wear DPS gear when using high CD skills, then switch back to Tank gear. For me 60 sec CD turns into 47 sec CD.


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#336 Nocredit

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:42 AM

Basically, if regarded over the course of time, dodging every 5th attack (20% dodge chance) is the same as a 20% damage reduction. Both have their advantages. F.e. if you would receive 1k damage and you have 1k HP left, a 20% damage reduction keeps you alive. However, if the attack would deal 1.5k damage instead, a 20% reduction would be pointless and therefore a 20% dodge chance could at least keep you alive by chance.

So Flee isn't crap, only the silly 10sec duration makes it underwhelming if compared to the 30sec of any damage-increasing skill.

The 40% Parry chance also grants a 20% damage reduction if regarded in a long term view.

Let's say there are 10 attacks that deal 100 damage each:

20% damage reduction => 10 hits with 80 damage each = 800 damage taken
20% dodge chance => 2 attacks miss => 8x 100 damage = 800 damage taken
40% parry chance => 6 deal 100 damage, 4 deal 50 (half damage) = 600 + 200 (4x50) = 800 damage taken

Pls enlighten me where there is the great inbalance.... all three reduce the damage down from 1000 to 800.

And since you compared it to the Knight.... you still take less damage due to a higher defense. And you still have higher lifepoints. The calculation is the following:

Knight: Double defense values compared to the monk for every equipment. An additional 40% defense bonus due to the shield: Uses Aura Armor to get an additional 5% damage reduction.
Monk: Less base defense but up to 250% defense boost.

=> Assume a base defense of 800, then the knight would have 1120 (with shield).
=> Monk would have 400 + 250% = 1400 or in other words a 25% defense bonus [used 10 skill points]

We should all know that the 5% damage reduction (Aura Armor) is equal to a flat bonus of 5x 44 to defense, In other words: +220 defense. To formulate it in other words, if something would increase your defense by 220, it would result in ~5% damage reduction. In the example given above, it would be 1340 vs 1400. Now you can calculate when in the game the Monk really got the edge over the Knight in regard of defense.


You can always compare these two skills. The difference here is that one of them is a flat %-decrease and the other one is a fractional factor. Therefore, dealing double damage is compensated by blocking 50% the damage. Blocking 20% of the damage can compensate a +25% damage bonus.

The cap doesn't really hurt either. I've never seen a character with a 70% damage reduction or 70% dodge chance. The only 'thing' that might hit the cap is a Warrior with parry gear who is is using Defender. But since 70% parry rate equals 35% dodge or a 35% damage reduction (see above), it's not that problematic either. This would mean roughly 50% damage increase compensates the 70% parry rate.

The long term damage doesn't really matter in a raid, though, those can be easily healed by the party's healers. Those skills only really make an important difference in the boss's strong skills. For example, say you have 9k HP and the boss does a skill that hits for 10k. Would you rather have a 20% chance of completely avoiding it or a 100% chance of surviving it, being left with 1k HP?
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#337 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:09 PM

as a monk who maxed evasion skill, ain't even mad.

 

i reach finals as monk often but can't win, the lack of CC vs a ranger with guardian wind pot is overwhelming rofl.


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#338 Lukiner

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 03:14 AM

 

so... 1:32 and 1:51

 

monk will still wear only 1 pseudo-weapon, no real badass dual wield knuckles/claws for monks :/

 

Gravity why? :p_cry: :p_cry:


Edited by Lukiner, 07 December 2013 - 03:23 AM.

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#339 Kayther

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 03:32 AM

HEY!!!! the  epic letters in the SCREEN WHEN GFIST ARE BACK :D !!!


Edited by Kayther, 07 December 2013 - 04:18 AM.

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#340 Imhorny

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 07:23 AM

The first thing that caught my eye, was the Double asura without summon spirit sphear, and the chinese text on the top!

 

Edit: OMFG ISIS?!?! SMALLER BOOBIES AND COVERED? WTH IS THIS -_-.


Edited by Imhorny, 07 December 2013 - 07:41 AM.

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#341 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 07:40 AM

THE MOTHER-_-ING BLACK KANJIS OF DOOM ARE BACK!!!!


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#342 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 07:49 AM

i would die if someone edits the video with this music:

 

 

Edit: I'm so doing this ;3


Edited by HunkSurvivor, 07 December 2013 - 08:01 AM.

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#343 DatMONKey

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 08:59 AM

It seems like the discussion has blown up since I last posted but I am seeing that many people still have the same misconceptions on how badly Monks are shafted in endgame and just how badly our gear sucks overall.

 

I'll have to read everything to make appropriate comments but it's far too cold for me to care at the moment. I am pretty hype about the trailer from last night's stream. For my friends here what did you think about,

 

The new G-Fist animation?

The increased speed of Fury->G-Fist combo and the reduced casting animation on G-Fist itself?

That sexy Knuckle?

Unknown Monk armor design and an cool looking Monk hat?

Master Form and the fact that apparently Tier 1 classes share the same Master form?

 

A lot to be excited about though we probably wont see much of it until mid January.


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#344 Rukaroa

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:27 AM

Off topic but...
 

i would die if someone edits the video with this music:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mg-4c4uQmdo

Edit: I'm so doing this ;3

Sorry about that. Kinda jumped the gun. :p_swt:


Edited by Rukaroa, 07 December 2013 - 09:29 AM.

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#345 Leinzan

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:30 AM

It seems that G-Fist takes a fraction of the time it does in the current animation. We did see the Fury Explosion occur but, there was a camera angle cut from that skill and G-Fist connecting, we should expect it to be a tad slower, but yea, it seems the speed got boosted along with the Crescentia's Tempest (which I also love!)

 

The sexy knuckle is sexy.

 

About the armor, isn't that the chumlingsa or... unkown gear...? Well, it doesn't seem like TG gives any armor, but I think I saw it at the "armor collection thread"

 

Yea, it seems Master Forms are shared, but still, they look badass >=P

I wonder how will Beastmasters transform into Master Forms?

 

That Assassin was a noob >__>!!

 

 

Edit: Nvm, saw the video again, the animation and time difference between Fury Explosion's cast and G-Fist strike connecting was VERY fast. Me like it :D!


Edited by Leinzan, 07 December 2013 - 09:33 AM.

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#346 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:38 AM

i was about to finish my video edit but my boss called, you might see it late night

 

Edit: Rukaroa Monk Master already did it x3. tehehe


Edited by HunkSurvivor, 07 December 2013 - 10:43 AM.

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#347 Tiduspeco

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:58 AM

As long as I've been playing RO2, I've always been raiding with monks. People talk about them like they're the worst class to ever be put in an MMO. Personally, I thinks monks are great. The only thing I really have over my near-equally geared tank buddy, ImHornyDad, is: higher dodge, a DOT (which, in all honesty sucks), slightly higher dps, and more pvp utility. His def, parry, and HP are higher than mine, and our CDs are pretty much the same. My shield fortress gives a 25% boost to the rest of the party but also immobilizes me, where as his protection ki doesn't effect his movement or potting at all. All in all, I think with this new and improved G-fist coming, monks will be right where they should be.


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#348 FluffyMiyu

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:25 AM

For now, you will say "I don't care if master form is shared as long as they are badass"

 

Well... wait for it... I doubt thing will same after a while.


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#349 HunkSurvivor

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:40 AM

Off topic but...
 

Sorry about that. Kinda jumped the gun. :p_swt:

 

lmao, seriously, you should make a single topic with this video x3!!!! i wanna read the people's reactions <3


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#350 Lukiner

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:32 AM

That sexy Knuckle?

 

The sexy knuckle is sexy.

 

are you talking about that "thing":

 

ZV4SYxj.png

Yt5EmAP.png

55iic6c.pngaYXgnzD.png

 

or those sexy badass babies (only for assassins ffs):

 

dJOEenm.png

D6LlL4A.png

YRl9DQa.png

lld51wT.png

 

because the weapon from first four screens looks .. umm.. nice (?) but not that very badass/epic/sexy imho :( ...  needs more spikes/talons/etc (I hope that there will be more badass knuckles not only this one type)...

 

UILSp4b.jpg

 

and monk totally needs to be wear his weapons on both hands not only on right hand. atm it looks silly... like he isn't able to fight with his left hand).


Edited by Lukiner, 08 December 2013 - 05:34 AM.

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