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#26 pomdjyer

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 07:46 AM

buff up biolabs EXP to give 100k exp per monster, not 20k or whatever it's at right now

biolabs lvl 3 is only worth it if you are soloing at this point
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#27 mooMOOmoo

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 08:44 AM

How to level up in diablo 2:
Find someone to rush you to end of hell difficulty, likely still in single digit level
Join baal run games, accept party invite, leech from high level bots, and repeat
That's it.

Diablo 2 has 35% bonus exp per additional party member.

Leeching is extremely widespread in Diablo 2: LOD, since the release of expansion, with level 12s running around in level 90 areas (cow games, and now baal runs) and watching their exp bar fly while doing nothing. This all started when a 35% exp bonus per additional party member is added. Later adding a 2 screen exp share limit doesn't stop massive leeching.
Before expansion release everyone just soloed, no exp bonus per additional party member (similar to pre-renewal RO, but no limits to exp sharing)

Edited by mooMOOmoo, 30 October 2010 - 08:45 AM.

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#28 Hanyuu

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 09:25 AM

My only gripe is mainly two things, both probably already mentioned.

Higher level monsters over about 120 aren't worth the time to kill, too much hp for too little reward.

Why would anyone genuinely party a bishop if they get better exp solo?

That's about it in a nutshell.
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#29 Ghost007

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 09:36 AM

KvM, BG, Poring wars should be adjusted on iRo, either make the rewards better or make it like hugel races, runs even with no one there.


GX: Lower damage edp skills in pvp/woe = great, but shouldn't it do more in pvm/mvp?

New poisons - I think some are barely noticable, easy for others to be immune to

Rolling cutter - 3x3? can't make it 5x5? Same goes for Meteor assault.

Poison smoke - only lasts 14 seconds at lvl 5? How bout making it 12-60 seconds depending on level? Just make it so you can't put down more then 1 smoke at a time.
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#30 Mwrip

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 11:49 AM

I few things I can think of:

1. The partying thing. Western gamers tend to be more social about their MMO play, and penalizing us for partying heavily discourages social gaming. Look at Diablo 2 - it's purely a hack & slash grind RPG, yet it was hugely popular in the US in spite of this. It gives +60% exp per party member beyond the 1st, so you can load it up, join a run completely at random, and get a fun party with 7 people you've never met... and since the classes all work together in different ways, you can join the exact same thing 3 times, yet get a different game due to who you're with. Compare to RO, where finding a party outside of guild & RL friends takes hours, because no one wants to take a huge penalty to their exp just to play with people. Pre-renewal, I loved joining things like NI and DG parties, where you need a group of people to play well together. Renewal goes out of its way to discourage parties, and there's no way that's going to be popular in the West.

2. Western gamers tend to love things like battlegrounds, quests, instances, and other such things, while being less interested in straight-up grinding. Even if many of these really are just a different kind of grind, the objectives and variety make the game more interesting.
Battlegrounds - RO's battlegrounds are a lot of fun, and something I could easily play for hours at a time... if the "battle" part of their name actually existed. From what you said, the fact that jackass farmers ruin our BGs does appear to be unique to iRO, but unfortunately, it's a fact of life, and if nothing is done to stop the farmers, the BGs are never going to run. WoE is great for hardcore pvp twice a week, but BGs are awesome casual pvp whenever... or well, they WOULD be if the farmers were dealt with. Randomize the teams, auto-kick the A-_-... do SOMETHING to halt the farmers, and it'll be a great system. There's nothing actually wrong with the BGs themselves - only the community pissing on the matching system. Also, one other thing I'd suggest to make it easier to start one - once 5 people enter a BG room, do a global "A battle is starting in Flavius!" announcement so people know there's a BG to join.
Quests - Eden group is little more than a system designed to make sure you have usable gear before you're ejected into the grind. Why not make more quest groups, and quests period? I'm not expecting a ton of stuff like Kiel Hyre or The Sign - I know those take an enormous effort to produce. Would it really be that hard to get some simpler quests in though, and develop the story more. RO actually has a rather interesting backstory to it in the rare cases you actually get to see it.

3. When we DO grind, a lot of us like a challenge. I remember leveling mages on stuff that 1-2 shotted me. It made me rather good at fast thinking, much better at the class, and most importantly, it was far more fun then fighting stuff that could never kill me. The exp was scaled in such a way that when you pulled it off, it was worth it. Not only does monster exp increase incredibly slowly in Renewal, but the game actually DIRECTLY penalizes you for fighting 10 over you. The result is that the only way to efficiently level is to just keep killing things that aren't a challenge - 5 under you seems to be about where to aim. This isn't fun. I would suggest not only dropping the penalty, but actually increasing the bonus for taking on nigh impossible challenges. "This should be impossible, but I pulled it off with the right build and a good strategy" is one of the reasons I've always loved RO over so many other MMOs, and Renewal killed that completely.

4. The classes further discourage party play. Why take a lock in the party when your RK does just as much damage with 4x the HP, while taking less damage? Why take a bard, linker or other secondary support class, when the party system heavily penalizes you for having more than 3 people together? Renewal is built around melee classes, Archbishops, and that's pretty much it.

5. RO's drop system is built heavily around newbies providing items to vets, and Renewal emphasized this even more so, by nerfing our drop rate into the ground if we fight low stuff at high level. That'd be fine if we actually HAD any newbies in the game, but we don't. Unless you can find a way to get a serious load of new players in (which would be ideal), the drop nerf needs to go (which is better than doing nothing.)

6. A lot of stuff has stopped working, and nothing new has appeared. They didn't bother making the battle arenas playable... they spawn the same stuff, so you're fighting things 30-40 over you... with a time limit. Good luck with that. The mercs are useless... they use the old stats, and stop at 99. Players permanently lose the ability to upgrade weapons if they take 3rd job. Vanis suck because their int is based on the old system where 80-90% of your spell power came from int. Etc, etc, etc. NONE of this stuff is hard to fix - most just requires a few numbers to be kicked around in a database, but they seem to have no interest in actually fixing it. Renewal, is after all, more than a year old, and none of the above has been addressed.

Edit: ...the word filter ate AFK ers without the space because it's ignoring the A. May want to set that one to exact match only.

Edited by Mwrip, 30 October 2010 - 12:35 PM.

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#31 Frappuccino

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 11:51 AM

Needs fixing:

Priest Heal- currently not viable for pretty much everything. everyone has 2x the HP they had before, and we heal for about .6x. suggested fix: revert to old heal formula

Mage Energy Coat- the cast time on this is ridiculous. suggested fix is to make a 1 second fixed cast time.

Scholar Soul Exhale- same as energy coat, takes forever to cast. 1 second fixed cast + pre-renewal soul exhale effect, otherwise this skill is mostly useless aswell.

Minstrel/Gypsy Arrow Vulcan- remove cast time altogethor, it's stupid needing a phen on a non-caster class.

Sniper Windwalk- currently the fixed cast time is too large, 1 second fixed cast time/ no cast time would make it more useful

Mechanics- 'nuff said.


and a heap of others people have mentioned or i've forgotten about.
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#32 Majeh

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:00 PM

buff up biolabs EXP to give 100k exp per monster, not 20k or whatever it's at right now

biolabs lvl 3 is only worth it if you are soloing at this point


bump for this seriously they got 400k hp x_X definitely need a boost in exp on this to incourage party lvling here or something of the sort
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#33 Wizard

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:01 PM

I really don't see how any "WoE Event" will really accomplish anything. WoE has been restricted to 1/2 realm(s) for several WoEs now and look at who's taking advantage of the situation.

Renewal pretty much killed off the WoE scene, and in combination with the past lag issues, the scale has really tipped regarding who is better off now. Props to Insurr, who got 8 of the top 10 spots. I'm the only person in my guild who is 150, and even over 140 at that. The majority of my guild enjoyed WoE for what it was, and not necessarily what it is. Things have transitioned from being casually playable to...if you don't invest atleast 10 hours a day, give up.

That pretty much outlines the situation in WoE as well. While some guilds are able to invest a lot of time into leveling, etc, other guilds simply can't. And with the 2x exp event NOT BEING permanent, once that's gone, WoE is pretty much over. Imagine spending 4x the amount of time you just did to get to where you are now. Nobody will level with that. I'm not saying perma 2x needs to be the answer, but realistically, people are already tired of the CURRENT 2x. I'm sure that if you check, not as many people are leveling as there were.

What is there to come back to? A WoE scene where skill not longer matters. It's simple. If you're a higher level, you'll kill everybody. And with the turtle hats being pulled after 150s were about, slowing everybody else down, and with 2x not being permanent, people are gonna come back, get rattled in WoE at level 105 or whatever, realize leveling blows ass, and quit again. It's the same RO. The only difference is you have to put in more time to get back to where you were.

And at 150? There's nothing to do but the same old :). MVPing has LONG been dead. ET is boring...whether you can complete it or not...there's really nothing left. Renewal made people work to get to where they used to be. That's about it.

Not much of a selling point.


^ This
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#34 Hellmasker

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:11 PM

i think the CS damage is good since Knights cant break emps well anymore.. if they cant kill what can they do?
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#35 Resplendent

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:12 PM

I few things I can think of:

1. The partying thing.

2. Western gamers tend to love things like battlegrounds, quests, instances, and other such things, while being less interested in straight-up grinding. Even if many of these really are just a different kind of grind, the objectives and variety make the game more interesting.

3. The exp was scaled in such a way that when you pulled it off, it was worth it. Not only does monster exp increase incredibly slowly in Renewal, but the game actually DIRECTLY penalizes you for fighting 10 over you.

4. The classes further discourage party play.

5. RO's drop system is built heavily around newbies providing items to vets, and Renewal emphasized this even more so, by nerfing our drop rate into the ground if we fight low stuff at high level.


And at 150? There's nothing to do but the same old :). MVPing has LONG been dead. ET is boring...whether you can complete it or not...there's really nothing left. Renewal made people work to get to where they used to be. That's about it.


Some replies that should be taken seriously. I agree with both.

Edited by Resplendent, 30 October 2010 - 12:13 PM.

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#36 Hacks

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:17 PM

the current party share system is even more messed up than people realize. say a level 50 character is partied with a level 35 character. the 50 kills a level 64 monster. said monster is worth 1k exp. alone he may have gotten like (cant find the damn penalty chart) 1.2k exp, but because of the share party, he only gets 600. the remainder of the exp then goes to his partymate... lvl35: wait... where's the rest of it? i should have 600 exp coming my way wtf is this 20exp? you mean i burnt up half my SP healing you for a whole 20exp? WHAT, ARE YOU HOLDING OUT ON ME?!?! lvl50: no way man i only got 600 out of it!!! lvl35: LIAR!! EXP DOESNT JUST VANISH INTO THIN AIR!!....

OR DOES IT NOW.

580 exp, almost half the kill, POOF GONE, like a fart in the wind. this is your new party system, way to go and screw things up.

in addition to partying killing your leveling efficiency, unless all members are the same level, an unacceptable amount of exp is LOST.

also, what Resplendent said.

Edited by Hacks, 30 October 2010 - 12:20 PM.

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#37 Frappuccino

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:22 PM

oh and unnerf safety wall. :)'s useless. f-_-.
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#38 Hacks

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:46 PM

the drop penalties need to be removed completely. iRO doesnt get enough newbies joining on a daily basis to supply the older players with low level consumables. rolling a new character just to collect woe supplies is highly irritating and should never need to be done. when said character gets to about a 70% penalty, it's not longer worth using anymore and you have to reroll.

the downwards (char>mob) exp penalty needs some adjusting, pureforgers still cant kill effectively and now they cant leech effectively either. the upwards penalty needs REMOVAL, possibly continuing upwards to a bit more than it's current peak then locking at that rate (200% would be NICE) instead of dropping off again. if i've built a character that can take out monsters 20 levels higher than itself, i shouldnt recieve a 90% penalty for it. this is penalizing people for being successful and is akin to communist socialism.

mercenaries currently are full of fail. their defence rates need major increases and their hit rate needs a lot of help as well. lvl 10 scrolls need to be turned into level 15 scrolls and we need a replacement for the 10's. 10 scrolls need their loyalty cost removed and new mercenaries need to be hirable for scroll levels 11-14 to fill the gap. level 10 merc will need to be modified to be level 105 instead of 99 and more options of each level need to be available (lvl1a, lvl1b, etc) each with different skills suited to different play styles. pre-renewal a lvl5 spear was more effective than a lvl7 spear, skill choices would balance this better.

this is already tl;dr i'll post more when i get my mind in order later.
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#39 Hacks

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:53 PM

oh yeah, exp tap. exp tap fails hardcore now. using a merc to help kill pre-renewal used to add another 25% to the exp pool, what is it now? 2.5%? epic fail there. used to buy BMs durring exp events and go hunt noobises with a pinaka for like 123k per kill, now i cant even justify the cost of buying the merc scrolls. and thats another thing, the cost. we got this massive drop nerf and the scrolls are expensive as :) compared to what you pull in with them now.
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#40 Akin

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 01:18 PM

Partying is one of the things we have already discussed with the devs, the bonus rate is likely able to be modified from 10% to something else (50% = everyone is exactly equal to a duo party which is a lot much IMHO).


Sorry to point out your grammar mistake Heim, but I'd like you to correct it so everyone can know what you really mean. When you say:

50% = everyone is exactly equal to a duo party which is a lot much IMHO.

Do you mean: everyone is exactly equal to a duo party which is a lot better IMHO?

Or: everyone is exactly equal to a duo party which is a bit much IMHO?

Thanks.

Also, I agree with what Afrikan says...the main problem is just a low population. Mostly caused by poorly managed technical problems that happen almost continuously.
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#41 ZeroTigress

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:28 PM

Places and things that need to get updated with Renewal changes:

Endless Tower
Izlude Monster Arena
Mercenaries
Def values for ALL old gear

Need to check over ALL old quests to have them record player progress properly. For instance, Hellion Quest is only recorded in the quest log up to the part where you get the number code from the flower girl even though you're at the very last part of the quest. Would be nice if it recorded all the way to the end so players would have more accurate depiction of exactly where they're at in the quest.

MATK forumula needs to get unnerfed/reevaluated.

Heal formula especially NEEDS to get unnerfed/redone because it downright sucks right now.

Edited by ZeroTigress, 30 October 2010 - 02:38 PM.

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#42 Pepperoncini

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:47 PM

I must be insane, because I am having a pretty good time in RO right now.
All of this complaining about renewal is going to force stupid decisions that will end up hurting the game in the long run just to appease us right now. There was an army of us waiting at 99/70 with a billion zenny and years of acquired gear and supplies waiting for the split second we could hit 3rd job. Is anyone really surprised that there is balancing issues in the upper levels? In the previous months we all drooled over the new skills coming out and probably did worse things while watching videos in a language we didn't understand where the changes already took place. Renewal testing was rushed, and since it launched I doubt the iRO team have had a second to catch their breath.

Most of the 'in-box' changes and new content with renewal had to do with leveling a novice up to trans 99, not with steamrolling to 150. But that's okay, because we already know that there are new high level maps, enemies, gear, quests, and cards coming down the pipeline. Now that we have renewal, it is no longer a wall preventing us from future updates.

WoE is crappy right now because of the level gap? WHAT? HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN!!?

There are serious issues and serious problems though. For example, the party bonus needs to be increased, monsters past 120 need to have their exp tables reworked, and several skills/spells obviously need to have their fixed cast time reworked.

But while we wait for fixes and tweaks, let's not forget that we have become the biggest babies in any MMORPG community ever. If the iRO team gives us just a little too much slack. Just 1 or 2% too big of a bonus. We will farm it, grind it, and pound on it with every battle manual, bubble gum, merc scroll, dual client trick/exploit/oversight that we have the capabilities to do so.
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#43 Ralis

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:50 PM

WoE is broken right now because of skills that are utterly retarded.

Cart Cannon is unreducable and can be spammed over and over. It's currently taking Valk about three characters (one a Genetic with double Megs) to take out all three of the guilds in our alliance.

The combination of only having two realms open means that the Valk alliance owns every castle, basically. It's even worse that all of the castles have 100 Econ. "Here, have some more God Items."
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#44 ensignfluke

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:59 PM

Partying is one of the things we have already discussed with the devs, the bonus rate is likely able to be modified from 10% to something else (50% = everyone is exactly equal to a duo party which is a lot much IMHO).


Partying should be equal or better to soloing, so if you get 100% exp soloing, it should be at least 100% partying, if not more and additional exp for additional party members. Yes, I know it gets easier to level while partying, and yes, I know people can leech easily this way, or not contribute, but it seems like the only solution to get people playing together more. They can always make it like the monster hunting quests, where you had to be on the same screen as your party to get counted. Maybe even add bonuses to attack, defense, higher drop rate, longer lasting buffs, or whatever when there are more members in a party on screen. The goal should be to get people to interact more and want to party instead of solo. Otherwise, why are we playing an MMO in the first place?

Edited by ensignfluke, 30 October 2010 - 03:03 PM.

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#45 Cubical

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 03:30 PM

Heim something we have to consider now imo is some of the ill-manner stuff 3rds can do in the world. That should probably be looked into so we dont have what happend to jRO.

And i'd like to see if we can lift the exp restrictions on monsters players are higher level over.

Edited by Cubical, 30 October 2010 - 03:31 PM.

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#46 Xellie

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 03:42 PM

my complaints :

  • Drop penalty
    complete BS. Needs to GTFO.
  • exp penalties
    I don't really understand why we must be punished for pushing our own limits. 15 levels doesn't offer us much I think there should be some kind of higher bonus for something so much higher than the player. On that note many lower level mvps don't feel worth it. (ex: RSX, Vesper)
  • cast times
    Warlocks suck.
    Wizard second class skills are completely invalidated. Instantcast shouldn't be achievable (kinda broken) but the current cast times are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long especially for the damage the skills do. I'd propose a decrease in the fixed cast time for Wizard skills (WL ones are ... okish)
  • parties...
    Everyone seems able to solo ok. I don't play an MMO to play alone. I'm maining an AB right now and I do feel like I don't do much other than leech exp and save some zeny for the party. everyone's bought up the party concern too so I won't reiterate it too much.
  • WoE (Ymir):
    events?! WTF! just let it play out, let the little guilds find their corners to squabble over between themselves and let a hero find it within them to stand up to the EVIL DOMINATING ALLIANCE. they may or they may not, but that's a community issue.
  • WoE (3rd skills)
    I think some need a further WoE reduction. *cough*clashing*cough*
  • Grumpy Guillotine Cross
    why'd EDP sonic blow get nerfed so much when other third classes and SOME TRANS SKILLS (clashing / acid bomb) got buffed to more than EDP +SB would have done before. GX didn't even get a skill to make their damage comparable to other thirds / the buffed skills. q_q etc etc.

Edited by Xellie, 30 October 2010 - 03:46 PM.

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#47 Akin

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 03:45 PM

While I completely support improving the party system to make it more rewarding for those who partake, I don't support increased rates that get everyone to 150 in a month's time. RO has very little as far as end game content and we'll all be bored again once we reach max level again.
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#48 JulianThanos

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 03:47 PM

ohhh.. now i got it.. the special event heim promised is a battle royale... woe ends when valk gets all the castles. Pretty smooth move, heim!
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#49 Ralis

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 03:53 PM

Y'know, usually when something's broken you don't turn it on, use it or run it.

AKA, WHY THE HELL is WoE still enabled when you've ACKNOWLEDGED it's broken. Valk doesn't need a bunch more God Items from 100 econ castles, thanks.

Edited by Ralis, 30 October 2010 - 03:54 PM.

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#50 eerie

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 04:03 PM

It used to be fun because it was guild vs guild. Or alliance vs alliance. Now nothing can stop one person from Super Man-ning 3 guilds? May the strongest man win... O wait, they already did. :); No wonder so many people quit within the first week of renewal. And the fact that you only left 2 realms open to be contested? Way to compound a problematic situation.
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