191 replies to this topic

[Resplendent]

It was more like me reading through the thread, then I came to your post and had trouble understanding what you were trying to say. Honestly I couldn't care less about starting arguments for the sake of it.

I disagree that partying would still occur as much as it would if the exp was the same as obtained by soloing. Parties take effort to plan and coordinate. There's a loss of efficiency inherent in having to ask 5 (or whatever) people to do their jobs instead of 1 person. There's a loss of freedom when you all have to decide where to go, and then stick together once you get there. (In traditional parties at least) Anyone wanting the best EXP/amount of effort is then surely more inclined to level by themselves where they can get the most efficient killing (since it is highly unlikely that everyone in a party will be the same level).

If partying didn't confer an uncapped EXP advantage (some parties should level better than others) there would be no reason to put all of that time and effort into forming them. I get that you want to be able to do whatever you want to by yourself, but unless the party system allows people to get faster exp/hr (or exp/effort) than soloing, what's the point? Obviously there's no objective way of measuring how much better partying should be. As I've said before, the system should at the least not penalize larger parties for adding that one extra person who can't kill very well on their own, and would thus lower party exp efficiency. There needs to be more than compensatory EXP to get past the effort barrier. Otherwise, what's the point?

Edited by Resplendent, 16 November 2010 - 06:02 AM.

[Kadelia]

I think the point of the aura system was to make it so pickup parties worked. I've played games like Trickster Online and such that have EXP bonuses for having people in party. Random people will want parties for no reason other than to meet new people and level faster.

I think in the end the best idea is to not have to worry about where you are going and what classes you need. To get good exp wherever is level-appropriate for you, with whatever classes you and your friends have, and for there to be harder instance dungeons where a well-organized party can get better rewards than random pickup parties (maybe not just EXP but good character-bound equipment? etc).

there's no objective way of measuring how much better partying should be. As I've said before, the system should at the least not penalize larger parties for adding that one extra person who can't kill very well on their own, and would thus lower party exp efficiency. There needs to be more than compensatory EXP to get past the effort barrier. Otherwise, what's the point?

The proposals in this thread so far (including mine) have all been geared at making it not penalize you for adding people, but not necessarily over-rewarding either. Some are in favor of that but I am certain not in favor of overewarding.

Edited by Jaye, 16 November 2010 - 06:05 AM.

[Prodigy]

Let me move away from the partying issue a bit and focus more into general leveling.

RO's leveling system is quite linear in a sense that leveling gets progressively harder as you go up. Ultimately, this what makes it feel like a grind because with each level, it only gets harder. While I do agree with the general concept, I think we should put what I would call "checkpoint" levels. I feel it best to use an example, so let me use WoW. In WoW, getting up to lvl 60 was a drag, but going from 60-65 was faster than the previous levels. Then, approaching 67-70 was slow again, but at 70-77 it picks back up. Finally, 77-80 is the final stretch where it takes long again.

Basically, what I'm liking with that is how instead of making every level progressively harder than the previous level, we should have certain checkpoints where from the checkpoint level up to a couple few levels, it will be faster than previously. I'd suggest that for RO, let the checkpoint levels be at 60, 85, 100, and 130, where going from 60~70 will be considerably faster than going from 50~60, going from 85~90 should be considerably faster than going from 75~85, and so on. This way, it would not feel like a grind going the whole way from 1-150 since every now and then, we'd reach a checkpoint level where we could breathe easier and not feel the grind. Also, this would encourage people to level more since they would be more encouraged to reach those checkpoints.

As for my reasoning why I chose those specific levels to be checkpoints:
60 - Around the time we change to 2nd job.
85 - End of Eden Group quests. This could be moved to 90 instead, I guess.
100 - Start of our 3rd class career.
130 - "Halfway" into our 3rd class career, to take off the stress of grinding for a bit.

[mooMOOmoo]

I think the thing of forcing you to change to 3rd class at level 99 seems too rigid. Remember that there's no base level requirement for job change to 1st and 2nd classes? I think this would work better:

Remove the base level requirement for job change from 2nd to 3rd classes. Job level requirement of 60 or higher still apply.

Raise the level cap of the following classes to 150 too.
-transcendent novices, 1st and 2nd classes
-expanded classes
-baby characters

Non-transcendent, non-baby character will not be able to change to 3rd classes this way.

Edited by mooMOOmoo, 17 November 2010 - 08:27 AM.

[Haldor]

Raising the base lvl cap for Trans wouldn't be a bad idea imo. Anyone trying to get to 99/70 will hit base 99 before job 70, so all that base experience people are using to get job 70 is wasted.

[Charon]

Raising the base lvl cap for Trans wouldn't be a bad idea imo. Anyone trying to get to 99/70 will hit base 99 before job 70, so all that base experience people are using to get job 70 is wasted.

Except the first 15m, which is about how much you will gather until u finish your job lvls.
Once you change to 3rd, the 99 cap is erased and after you die or kill a monster, whooop you are lvl 100 and 90%.

[Akin]

@Haldor: Actually, it's not really wasted unless you get a huge amount of EXP accumulated at 99 while trying to get job 70 (enough to level you past 100 at 90%). What happens is, you hit a poring, and if you have enough, you'll auto level to 100 and with some extra EXP.

That said, I think it's bad design to have people reach max job level before reaching max base level, but I do like the idea of keeping a character at 99 without the possibility of leveling if they're going to keep this ridiculous item drop cap based on level.

[Scott]

Let me move away from the partying issue a bit and focus more into general leveling.

RO's leveling system is quite linear in a sense that leveling gets progressively harder as you go up. Ultimately, this what makes it feel like a grind because with each level, it only gets harder. While I do agree with the general concept, I think we should put what I would call "checkpoint" levels. I feel it best to use an example, so let me use WoW. In WoW, getting up to lvl 60 was a drag, but going from 60-65 was faster than the previous levels. Then, approaching 67-70 was slow again, but at 70-77 it picks back up. Finally, 77-80 is the final stretch where it takes long again.

Basically, what I'm liking with that is how instead of making every level progressively harder than the previous level, we should have certain checkpoints where from the checkpoint level up to a couple few levels, it will be faster than previously. I'd suggest that for RO, let the checkpoint levels be at 60, 85, 100, and 130, where going from 60~70 will be considerably faster than going from 50~60, going from 85~90 should be considerably faster than going from 75~85, and so on. This way, it would not feel like a grind going the whole way from 1-150 since every now and then, we'd reach a checkpoint level where we could breathe easier and not feel the grind. Also, this would encourage people to level more since they would be more encouraged to reach those checkpoints.

As for my reasoning why I chose those specific levels to be checkpoints:
60 - Around the time we change to 2nd job.
85 - End of Eden Group quests. This could be moved to 90 instead, I guess.
100 - Start of our 3rd class career.
130 - "Halfway" into our 3rd class career, to take off the stress of grinding for a bit.

I disagree with the level 60 part. I got to second class at base 40, and my friends who went job 50 did it at base 53-55. 60-70 is also very easy to level in. I did Orc Dungeon from 55 to 67 in one afternoon with a 3 way experience share with my friends.

[Prodigy]

^Okay my bad. I used my Merchant as a basis for the base 60 part, but I guess I forgot that she was lvl 45/33 to begin with when Renewal hit so that most probably skewed my base:job ratio. Anyways, the general idea is to have it where every now and then, leveling gets easier to take off the stress from grinding.

Making leveling easier can be done in many ways. The most straightforward way is outright reducing the exp required at those checkpoint levels, making them less exp than the levels right before the checkpoint ones. Another way is for example, at the level 100 checkpoint, make the level 115 monster (15 levels above is the ideal leveling target) give much, much more exp than the level 114 monster.

Anyways, in WoW, I was actually able to focus leveling for 2 weeks (7 days worth of actual playing time) without getting bored since every now and then, I hit those checkpoints where leveling would speed up, so it didn't really feel like a grind to me.

Edited by Prodigy, 17 November 2010 - 08:07 PM.

[FatherBob]

So total side note here - I love how hands off the GMs have been in regards to this topic. So far I've seen more or less the bulk of the community pro players, a few randoms, and then one comment by the GM team.

(And for the curious, I'm just the lurking shadow ninja)

[Wanderer]

There's a lot of reasons to keep 2nd job-only WoEs past this event:

The first one being new players having a chance to enjoy one of the most interesting features of RO sooner, rather than waiting several months to get a properly leveled and geared 3rd to do something.

The second being some older players who don't seem to completely enjoy new 3rd class WoEs, this is a chance to play with old classes they are used to with somewhat similar mechanics, it's certainly not pre-renewal playing style but it's the most close they could get to old school RO.

However playing without recall right now removes a good portion of the fun, something should be worked out to allow the enabling of this feature without recalling 3rd classes to those castles.

[Scott]

^Wrong topic... but I like the idea of a second lot of duplicate castles for second class WoE only.

Edited by Scott, 20 November 2010 - 06:15 PM.

[Myzery]

What? Partying should have no advantages over soloing? I'm trying to figure out if you're seriously saying this, because it makes no sense at all.

Your advantage is having fun with friends and being social.
Otherwise, there is no reason what so ever that it should be on par with soloing. Getting extra exp is fine, but it should never be 100% or more for everyone in the party.

[Scott]

The nature of a party should result in faster levelling, but not more experience, or even equal experience. Soloing should provide the most experience per kill, while partying should provide the most experience over time.

[Brindizer]

The nature of a party should result in faster levelling, but not more experience, or even equal experience. Soloing should provide the most experience per kill, while partying should provide the most experience over time.

Except those are one and the same when you're dealing with absolutely ridiculous killers, such as one that would be using Kaahi.

I just don't understand why it's more beneficial to kill tons of weak things and gain more overall than it is to kill fewer tough things.

Edited by Brindizer, 21 November 2010 - 07:10 AM.

[Scott]

Except those are one and the same when you're dealing with absolutely ridiculous killers, such as one that would be using Kaahi.

I just don't understand why it's more beneficial to kill tons of weak things and gain more overall than it is to kill fewer tough things.

It's not more beneficial to kill tons of weak things unless they mob, and even then, they lose their usefulness after a while. Receiving more exp per kill while soloing really isn't the same thing as receiving more experience over time while partying. Sure, a "ridiculous killer" would speed partying up even more so, but partying is meant to have some sort of incentive over soloing.

[Lucentos]

I`m thinking that Partying shouldn`t be necessary for Lvling, but it should be recommended way to Lvl since greater Exp per hour income.

[mooMOOmoo]

All existing non-repeatable EXP quests need to have their EXP reward cranked up by a huge amount to make them worth doing:
-around 10-100x of current renewal values
-harder and longer quests needs much higher rewards
-quests that don't unlock any dungeons or provide any other rewards needs an even bigger EXP buff

After buffing their EXP rewards, EXP should be given in multiple chunks to allow multi-leveling after accomplishing those long/hard ones.

Edited by mooMOOmoo, 25 November 2010 - 06:24 PM.

[JStarbux]

ok, finally finished reading all the posts. Have to admit that the ideas I'm about to share came before Heims post about what might be coming. Time to rethink parties...

PARTY LEVEL: (parties should be able to gain levels!)
Having a party that can gain levels based on progress. Each level boosts stats of its party members. (Oh think of the WoE implications!) . Actually this proposed effect should be disabled for WoE).

As you kill monsters, your party gains exp. Max out at level X with X bonuses to stats/hp/sp/defense, ect. The party level would expire after a duration (next day? or 24 hours from party creation?) in order to prevent certain parties from staying partied and not letting anyone else in.

Monsters killed on the party leader's screen only count for party experience. (this would add motivation to stay with your party and not spread out too much.)

NEW PARTY WINDOW: (Make it feel like a guild)
With all the new bonuses and experience, party function deserves a new window. Better understanding of who is in the party, their class, health, current map. Kind of like Guild window but better.

PARTY ALIGNMENT: (Make parties more strategic!)
You can also develop something called "party alignment". Based on the classes of the characters in it, they would belong to 1 of 4 groups (Support, Speed, Strength, Magic). Each class adds a certain point value in on of the categories. As your party grows more diverse or focused, you gain bonuses for that alignment. Strength increases strength significantly obviously but a balanced party increases all stats slightly as well as hp/sp.

PARTY ACCESS: (Make parties more exclusive!)
Also, allowing certain maps to only be accessed by parties. These maps should be rewarding just like ET. Such as multiple MVPs, double exp, double drops, ect.

These will change the fundamentals of how parties are formed. There should be more focus on what parties are about rather than exp boosts. I still vote for the 20-25% boost per member, but lets not make the game a joke by getting 12 people in the same party. Make it strategic, make it organized, and make time invested in parties worth it. Then when that is said and done, give those parties exclusive access to maps which have even more rewards.

Parties aren't rocket science but maybe they should be. Adding variety using concepts I mentioned will make people wish they were in parties not just to gain levels because its actually a different part of the game to enjoy.

p.s. Seriously though, don't nerf drops for monsters lower then your level. That is just stupid. Exp fine, but really no point to nerfing lower level drops.

Edited by JStarbux, 05 December 2010 - 04:51 AM.

[Scott]

Party levels would be pretty cool, but it'd have to have a rather sudden cap off, and you'd need to be able to gather party levels quickly without any loss to experience gained. For that reason, I'd suggest parties having a max level of 5, and each level requiring 100 kills more than the last. For instance:

Level 1-2: 100 Kills
Level 2-3: 200 Kills
Level 3-4: 300 Kills
Level 4-5: 400 Kills

So a max level party would require 1000 kills, with bonuses staying in tact for say, 72 hours.

[JStarbux]

Party levels would be pretty cool, but it'd have to have a rather sudden cap off, and you'd need to be able to gather party levels quickly without any loss to experience gained. For that reason, I'd suggest parties having a max level of 5, and each level requiring 100 kills more than the last. For instance:

Level 1-2: 100 Kills
Level 2-3: 200 Kills
Level 3-4: 300 Kills
Level 4-5: 400 Kills

So a max level party would require 1000 kills, with bonuses staying in tact for say, 72 hours.

I think you'd have to make it experience based just like Guild Levels. Otherwise everyone would go to culvert and lvl up to 5 then go some place more difficult.

[Scott]

If it impedes on actual base and job experience, people wouldn't like it.

[Lucentos]

I`m have an idea of two Party skills - Party E-Call and Party Rally. The first will summon party to Party leader and second will be equal to Giant Flywing but with noticeable cooldown to save party from overcrowd. Both skills works only in PvM areas.

Edited by Lucentos, 06 December 2010 - 01:41 AM.

[Charon]

I think that this subforum is more meant for suggestions on how to adjust the systems and features that are already in, to make it better, not about what this game could have that doesn't exist already.

I mean, we can be happy if gravity takes adjusting suggestions from here serious. Expecting them to consider implementing stuff like this party leveling idea, seems way to unrealistic to happen, to me at least.

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to see a party system in that direction. But remember who this is gonna be sent to... at least I hope this hasn't been abandonded, seeing how there was no heim posting anything for longer than a month?

The leveling party idea is not even that outside of whats doable without much work (since its similar to the guild system), but just saying.




Btw
Does anyone else think 3rd class exp tables should be faster for nontrans characters?
It makes no sense that you need
96->97 2,8m
97->98 3,3m
98->99 4m
and after change it jumps to
99->100 7m
100->101 7,4m
101->102 7,7m
etc

Or even better, since 3rd job skills are completely unrelated to trans,
It would make much more sense for 3rd class exp to be a continuation of the nontrans tables instead of the trans one, regardless if you transed or not.

99->100 4,5m
100->101 4,9m
101->102 5,2m
etc.

This it would even be a morale boost for people who get to 3rd as trans, since the first few base lvl would actually be a bit faster (7m->4,5m O:), while continuing normally if one did not go the trans route.

Edited by Charon, 06 December 2010 - 07:49 AM.

[Mwrip]

The whole 3rd job system makes no sense, and not just on the exp table. The problem is that originally, 3rd job was supposed to fit in the normal 99 levels. If you ever wondered why 2nd job ended in the 80-82 range, and leveling got insanely slow at 9x pre-Renewal, it's because you were supposed to have a 3rd job bring you from 80-95, with 3rd job taking about as long as 2nd job does to max. You would then trans and get extra skills for all jobs, still within the 99 levels.

When Gravity got taken over by that company that produced all those useless culture towns and nearly killed the game in the process, and then a new team got a chance to try to save it, they rushed transcendence out to revive the game. It *worked*, but the result was the extremely unbalanced trans class system, and the future problem of "ok, so where the hell does 3rd job fit now?" The result is a 3rd job that ends up replacing trans instead of working with it, and has 50 levels, despite progressing from a job with 70. They basically took a cracked, barely stable system, and duct taped 3rd job to it.

Edited by Mwrip, 07 December 2010 - 11:21 AM.