191 replies to this topic

[Scott]

Because Swordsman, Thief and Merchant in particular will probably miss every attack on the face of the Earth until they get 50 dex, I resorted to using a Mercenary to level, but there's a huge problem with this because the Mercenaries still have very low hit.

I want their hit to be fixed, and for monsters level 1-50 or so to require less hit to actually connect.

[Neutral12]

- Parties need to become more useful then they are now. Its not like where it used to be. Where partying was fun and you had a great time leveling with others. Now, its just a "do it yourself" project. This is a huge change for such supportive classes which depend on parties.

- +1 for the new AI (the puppy made me sad btw )

- There needs to be brand new permanent monster kill exp NPCs, which the exception of a couple old monster kill NPCs making a return. Even with the easier exp, its still nice to have such options "considering people solo now". Here's my ideas for such npcs;

• PecoPecos
• Roweens
• Droseras
• Desert Wolves
• Disguise/Loli Ruri's
• Magmarings (Especially Magmarings, considering how packed with people it is)

[xuan]

As of right now there is still zero reason for strangers to party each other because of the exp hit. And even more so when it's a party without an acolyte or priest.

I'm thinking Eden kill count quests should offer something in the way of account bound consumables - Eden Ygg Leaves or Eden Pots - when you complete the quests in a party. You get a maximum amount (which varies depending on your class and number of people in your party) after initiating the quest and the amount can't be accumulated (i.e. quest A with 4 people, and you get 50 Eden orange pots). However, you can't accumulate these pots (the original amount you had is always reset by when you finish the quest, so it's always encouraged to use them up before finishing a quest).

Depending onthe task that needs to be done and type of party, you are given supplies including:

Eden Pots (a party missing a priest based char would be given more pots)
Eden Ygg Leaves (one for each member but may scale upward if assigned a difficult area)
Eden Group Fly Wing (only one for the leader)
Eden Badge of Protection - an accessory that is account bound and will disappear after the quest is complete or after 2 hours has passed (if quest is still not complete, party cannot obtain another; it is determined by the party members who will receive it, and is only obtained if the party contains no support classes. It gives you the skill lvl 1 Heal and 2% increase in sp recovery.

Eden quests require a minimum of 3 players in the party. Partying in the eden way in this case will have to be pretty strict - I think Eden should be responsible for creating these particular parties. Essentially, if you want to add more people to the party, you can. However, leaving the party has an impact on the final rewards of the Eden quest for the whole original party. It also eliminates the Eden Quest from that person and they have to start over.

[yea I know it's harsh - but having a party you can just make on the fly seems to be prone to even more bugs and abuse then a party forced by an NPC; some suggestions on this would be awesome]


Experience. The reward for an Eden quest should make the quest seem worthwhile *AND MORE ADVNATAGEOUS EXP WISE THEN IF YOU WERE SOLOING* The more people, the higher the possibility of a bonus. The best idea I had was for individual Rankings for each member, which contribute to the overall Ranking of the party. If you score a point, a yellow +1 pt comes up over the chars head. A decent Ranking gets the party the same experience as if they were soloing on the map. There's diff ways to get points, and it should take the place of exp tapping and other achievements like defeating a higher level monster found on the map. [this is probably best done via an instance dungeon].

Finally, transport. I think Eden should teleport the group to the Kafra closest to the destination in exchange for 2k * number of people in the party.

[FatherBob]

2. Improved party share exp. We are asking for a server side setting for it to tune it from 0-100% per extra person. 50% bonus per person past 2 would mean that a 12 person party would have each person still getting 50% of monster normal solo value. We would not have 50% as our "base" but instead have it as a reserve for a special event. 10% is way too low I think, likely 20-25% bonus would be appropriate, as that would surpass an 'everyone taps" party.

If I'm understanding you correctly here, it still results in a "less than 1" EXP situation. What's the point in loading up my party, especially at the lower levels, when it's quicker for me to solo anything? In fact, what's the point of loading up the party at any level? You'll still end up with parties remaining at the bare minimum number of people required to get the job done.

Personal experience time, you figure out where my gripe is coming from.

"It took me roughly 12 hours to bring a brand new High Novice up to Stalker (going to job 50 as a High Thief). During this time, my High Novice / High Thief was partied with a Mage I crossed paths with early on. It was a simple two person share party; I would draw in the monsters, the Mage would unleash some seriously overpowered magic attacks. About 9 hours in I noticed that each of us was easily capable of doubling our EXP intake by killing things solo. In fact, looking back led me to realize that the benefits gained by being in a party lasted only for the first 3 hours. By that time I was using nearly all of my gear from before, and the Mage was becoming capable of one-shotting whatever we were attacking. During this time, I took several breaks from the party share EXP to see what the difference was (I was, in effect, soloing), and at times I saw a 400% increase in leveling effectiveness."

The new leveling system has only offered more places to move around and level at for a multitude of classes, however it is still promoting soloing over partying. In other words, the game itself views partying as a sign of weakness within a player, and penalizes them for it. If I wanted to solo level, Heimdallr, I would go play something like Oblivion, FF XIII, or Blue Dragon. If you want to see my idea about how to truly fix this issue and promote partying of all classes, see my post at the top of this page. Bottom line, we need to set minimum EXP intake in a share party to 100% per person, and build from that.

Edited by FatherBob, 14 November 2010 - 03:23 PM.

[Charon]

I thought I'd read through the whole thread before posting.
This thread is full of amazing ideas!

All I was gonna say has been said several times, mostly better than what I came up with, from the basic "(exp)/(nr.of pty members)=discourages party" problem, diverse class bonuses, to the argument that base 150 before job 50 should be reverse.

This game could become so much fun with all that stuff, I hope these ideas get to korea(or is is japan now?)

Here's my ideas for such npcs;

Spoiler

• PecoPecos
• Roweens
• Droseras
• Desert Wolves
• Disguise/Loli Ruri's
• Magmarings (Especially Magmarings, considering how packed with people it is)

There will be Eden Quests featuring Lolis, DesertWolves,Magmarings,Roweens for the 85-99 billboard in a future update.

But the requests in eden should really be doubled. Hunt 20 is too lame goin back and forth 7 times every level, Hunt 60 on the other hand you could maybe try making a party XD

Btw, the job exp are quite low (at least on 55-70), while some only give base... I leveled my alchemist from 30 by doing eden quests. I ended up getting Merchant job 50 at base 61, though it's usually more like 55 with the renewal exp tables. Not that important though.

Edited by Charon, 14 November 2010 - 04:25 PM.

[Talvis]

If I'm understanding you correctly here, it still results in a "less than 1" EXP situation. What's the point in loading up my party, especially at the lower levels, when it's quicker for me to solo anything? In fact, what's the point of loading up the party at any level? You'll still end up with parties remaining at the bare minimum number of people required to get the job done.

Personal experience time, you figure out where my gripe is coming from.

"It took me roughly 12 hours to bring a brand new High Novice up to Stalker (going to job 50 as a High Thief). During this time, my High Novice / High Thief was partied with a Mage I crossed paths with early on. It was a simple two person share party; I would draw in the monsters, the Mage would unleash some seriously overpowered magic attacks. About 9 hours in I noticed that each of us was easily capable of doubling our EXP intake by killing things solo. In fact, looking back led me to realize that the benefits gained by being in a party lasted only for the first 3 hours. By that time I was using nearly all of my gear from before, and the Mage was becoming capable of one-shotting whatever we were attacking. During this time, I took several breaks from the party share EXP to see what the difference was (I was, in effect, soloing), and at times I saw a 400% increase in leveling effectiveness."

The new leveling system has only offered more places to move around and level at for a multitude of classes, however it is still promoting soloing over partying. In other words, the game itself views partying as a sign of weakness within a player, and penalizes them for it. If I wanted to solo level, Heimdallr, I would go play something like Oblivion, FF XIII, or Blue Dragon. If you want to see my idea about how to truly fix this issue and promote partying of all classes, see my post at the top of this page. Bottom line, we need to set minimum EXP intake in a share party to 100% per person, and build from that.

Though I agree with you 100% that each player should add 100% to actually encourage large parties over soloing, based on Heim's post, as usual they're going to mostly ignore us and do what they want.

[Frappuccino]

it shouldn't be 100% exp per person in a party because you could just throw 12 characters in a party and get them all to run around the map killing, which, assuming each person is killing at the exact same rate, would effectively give you 12x exp.

[Charon]

it shouldn't be 100% exp per person in a party because you could just throw 12 characters in a party and get them all to run around the map killing, which, assuming each person is killing at the exact same rate, would effectively give you 12x exp.

Did you read any post that said share should only work for people on-screen?

[Frappuccino]

i did but i disagree with that entirely so i consider it a null point.

[Charon]

i did but i disagree with that entirely so i consider it a null point.

So what's your idea? Leave it as is and let everyone solo? o:

Because this combined with +100% every person or so, would turn RO into an actual MMORPG xD

[Kitten]

Blah blah blah...

If players in a party are all within range of each other and able to share, do not nerf the EXP of players above or below the optimal leveling range of the monsters they are killing. The current system just makes it difficult to find a map suited to everyone in the party. Someone is pretty much always going to lose out. Even more so when there are certain maps everyone tends to favor. And if that's the case, then why even bother partying? That's not the sort of logic players should be using.

Worried about leeching? Stop worrying about it. Don't impose limitations on legitimate parties to deter those who want to leech. They'd leech regardless.

Work something out that will allow a party to level on a map that is supposed to be too difficult for them. We all know it's quite possible to easily kill monsters 20 levels above you. But we don't want to as we see a huge exp and drop penalty for doing so. I propose parties should be allowed to level on maps a bit outside their normal range. Sweeten the deal a bit and reward us for working together. It would at least allow for a change of pace.

Or expand the leveling range from 15 to 20 if that's too difficult. Give us more choices.. Let us go where we want to go.

A better EXP modifier per party member is needed for smaller parties. The EXP now is pretty good in a full party where everyone is active and able to kill quickly, but smaller parties lose out. Adding another player into a party doesn't necessarily mean you'll be killing twice as fast to make up for the split EXP. This is dependent on many factors, such as the classes in question, what they're killing, spawn rates, and so on. I think adding a second player into a party should give a larger exp bonus than adding a tenth player, for instance. Find some sort of balance.

Greater EXP should be given by monsters located on maps that require quests to access them. More EXP for more difficult quests. New World comes to mind. Small spawns, monsters that take a bit more time to kill than others of comparable level, a time consuming series of quests to access the maps. In the case on New World, why not give a sizable EXP bonus to players who finish the quests associated with the area instead of just stopping once they're given map access? Seems fair and it promotes finishing the quest chain.

Monsters that spawn slaves that reward EXP should award full EXP and not be affected by a level difference nerf. This is annoying. Stop doing this. Summoned slaves should be recognized as the same level as the monster that spawned them. Giving them completely independent levels just seems so tedious and unrewarding.

Spawn rates need adjusting. Too few on most maps, too many on others. Play with it. Find something that works.

Quantity over quality leveling is boring. No need to explain this on further.

Classes without a powerful AoE get the short end of the stick. Introduce maps with monsters more suited for classes unable to kill huge mobs. Make the EXP worth their time. They can level there on slightly more challenging monsters while the classes suited to mobbing continue to mob elsewhere. This is one case were low-ish spawns would actually make sense.


And while Heimdallr's post about a proposed future party buff system sounds nice... We need changes now. Fix what is wrong with Renewal leveling before getting into a shiny new party system. I'd rather my role in a party be rewarding and worthwhile on it's own without needing special buffs to make up for the system's shortcomings.

[Blueness]

it shouldn't be 100% exp per person in a party because you could just throw 12 characters in a party and get them all to run around the map killing, which, assuming each person is killing at the exact same rate, would effectively give you 12x exp.

The ideal thing would be for each person in a party to get the full exp of a monster, plus a slight bonus the more people are in a party

[Kadelia]

The ideal thing would be for each person in a party to get the full exp of a monster, plus a slight bonus the more people are in a party

No, because a party of 12 would kill significantly faster than 1 person but you'd get full EXP. This equates to parties being exponentially better exp than soloing, which is not the right solution.

[Charon]

No, because a party of 12 would kill significantly faster than 1 person but you'd get full EXP. This equates to parties being exponentially better exp than soloing, which is not the right solution.

If they all went into their own corner killing at their solo speeds, oh yea x_x

How much does it differ though if they would need to be close enough to see each other on the screen for share to work? O:


Maybe not 100% each member regardless of the number of people, but close enough to encourage parties over solo.
100%->50%->33% for 1->2->3 people simply doesn't do that and never will.

Something like when you get 2 ppl in a party it would become 100%/1->150%/2.
So if you get a priest you lose 25%, but their buffs would surely make up for this.

Even if you are some fast melee and help for example a slow battle alchemist, the alch needs to be close to half as good as yourself to bring the exp above your 100% solo speed. And then if there was also an exp boost for sharing with crappier pvm classes, invite the alch asap LOL

What I fear in this would be though that gravity wouldn't give appropriate balanced exp boost for that and we'd end up with a class which could lvl fast with a nice build having a crap boost, but everyone picking the more useful builds which lvl slow...
This could all be cool but gravity wouldnt wanna invest enough time to think it through for the results to be good.
I mean they copy pasted 3-2 job bonuses from 3-1, like they didn't have 10minutes to think up unique ones that suit each class.....

Or maybe:
100%*1->75%*2->60%*3->60%*4->50%*5->50%*6->45%*7->40%*8->40%*9->38%*10->35*11->33%*12
100%/1->150%/2->180%/3->240%/4->250%/5->300%/6->315%/7->320%/8->360%/9->380%/10->385%/11->400%/12
the fourth/sixth/ninth member being a non-killer wouldn't lower the exp, or it would give the biggest boost if it was a killer, though what monsters are there that would have so much HP that 4 killers close to each other would be any good?
RO is missing high HPhigh exp monsters right now. Was this mostly gotten rid of because people figured ways to ohko those and reach imbalanced exp/h rates? e_e

Eh this is not simple at all

[Akin]

No, because a party of 12 would kill significantly faster than 1 person but you'd get full EXP. This equates to parties being exponentially better exp than soloing, which is not the right solution.

I'm curious, even though 100% per monster per party member might be too high (I think it should be 50% tops), why don't you believe that making partying better than soloing isn't the right solution?

If they all went into their own corner killing at their solo speeds, oh yea x_x

How much does it differ though if they would need to be close enough to see each other on the screen for share to work? O:


Maybe not 100% each member regardless of the number of people, but close enough to encourage parties over solo.
100%->50%->33% for 1->2->3 people simply doesn't do that and never will.

Something like when you get 2 ppl in a party it would become 100%/1->150%/2.
So if you get a priest you lose 25%, but their buffs would surely make up for this.

Even if you are some fast melee and help for example a slow battle alchemist, the alch needs to be close to half as good as yourself to bring the exp above your 100% solo speed. And then if there was also an exp boost for sharing with crappier pvm classes, invite the alch asap LOL

What I fear in this would be though that gravity wouldn't give appropriate balanced exp boost for that and we'd end up with a class which could lvl fast with a nice build having a crap boost, but everyone picking the more useful builds which lvl slow...
This could all be cool but gravity wouldnt wanna invest enough time to think it through for the results to be good.
I mean they copy pasted 3-2 job bonuses from 3-1, like they didn't have 10minutes to think up unique ones that suit each class.....

Or maybe:
100%*1->75%*2->60%*3->60%*4->50%*5->50%*6->45%*7->40%*8->40%*9->38%*10->35*11->33%*12
100%/1->150%/2->180%/3->240%/4->250%/5->300%/6->315%/7->320%/8->360%/9->380%/10->385%/11->400%/12
the fourth/sixth/ninth member being a non-killer wouldn't lower the exp, or it would give the biggest boost if it was a killer, though what monsters are there that would have so much HP that 4 killers close to each other would be any good?
RO is missing high HPhigh exp monsters right now. Was this mostly gotten rid of because people figured ways to ohko those and reach imbalanced exp/h rates? e_e

Eh this is not simple at all

That was a bit hard to follow, are you suggesting that the EXP boost per party member be dependent on the class of the player, similar to what Heim suggested with Auras?

[Charon]

That was a bit hard to follow, are you suggesting that the EXP boost per party member be dependent on the class of the player, similar to what Heim suggested with Auras?

That and I was thinking of how much more exp share would give for more members, so it was less than a simple 100% and enough to be better than soloing even if you shared with crappier classes. xD

[Kadelia]

I'm curious, even though 100% per monster per party member might be too high (I think it should be 50% tops), why don't you believe that making partying better than soloing isn't the right solution?

I don't think punishing people for wanting to play alone is any better than punishing people for wanting to level with friends. Ideally, both methods would be good, and ideally, people have the freedom to choose without feeling they made the "wrong" choice.

[Wanderer]

2 people = 62.5% of original monster exp each
3 people = 50% of original monster exp each
4 people = 44% of original monster exp each
5 people = 40% of original monster exp each
6 people = 37% of original monster exp each
7 people = 35% of original monster exp each
8 people = 34% of original monster exp each
9 people = 33% of original monster exp each
10 people = 32% of original monster exp each
11 people = 31% of original monster exp each
12 people = 30% of original monster exp each

[Pred]

Here's my argument for full exp to all.

Why do we even bother with exp split at all? How about when set to Each Take, we go with the current Each Take system, but when set to Even Share we go with this:

- Every person in the party gets the full exp of the monster (after their individual adjustments based on level difference).
- Exp is only gotten if you're on the same screen as the killer (similar to how kill count quests worked pre-renewal).

With that setup, combined with the difference in exp earned for level differences, you no longer even need the 15 level restriction for setting even share, that's taken care of already. If you're a level 1 char, and you're able to survive in a level 100+ dungeon long enough to follow a party around, you SHOULD be gaining a level per kill. Who cares if it allows for leeching? Given the exp chart for level differences you're not going to be seeing thor's leeching anytime soon, or anything like that, besides would you have leeched off of a TKM in thor's if you had to follow the TKM around the whole time to get exp? Who cares if one person can just auto-follow 4 chars on one killer and get exp either? The leveling in this game is grindy and often boring. Why compound that with making it harder for group leveling which is the only time leveling is fun? Let the few people who have the ability to play 4 accounts at once level 4 of their chars at once, while letting the rest of the server enjoy group leveling that's often more fun, and more beneficial to all.

Couple that with the AI enhancements I'm hoping kRO is taking into consideration, and you'll have a game that's more enjoyable from start-game to end-game play, that will easily attract new members (which means more money for you).

If you really think people care so much about others leeching multiple chars at once to the point that they're willing to sacrifice their own lvling experience... You've lost sight of who's playing your game. Forward this one to kRO for me "Remember that it's your customers playing your game, not you. Your development team, or management, might think something is a great idea, but if your customer feedback is saying it's bad... it's bad. Force your opinion on your user base, and your user base will abandon you."

Edited by Pred, 15 November 2010 - 05:04 PM.

[Neutral12]

If you really think people care so much about others leeching multiple chars at once to the point that they're willing to sacrifice their own lvling experience... You've lost sight of who's playing your game. Forward this one to kRO for me "Remember that it's your customers playing your game, not you. Your development team, or management, might think something is a great idea, but if your customer feedback is saying it's bad... it's bad. Force your opinion on your user base, and your user base will abandon you."

If I could dude... I'd give you the biggest cookie in the pastry store.... Well put and said mate.

[Frappuccino]

So what's your idea? Leave it as is and let everyone solo? o:

Because this combined with +100% every person or so, would turn RO into an actual MMORPG xD

now it's you who hasn't paid attention to previous posts.

Aura Proposal

http://img64.imagesh...i/auraprop.png/

-Bonus is decreased per extra party member of the same class, but is additive, not multiplicative.
-As an example, adding another Acolyte to a Non Trans party will not result in [(int + 10%) + 5%], rather [int + 15%].
-The party must be in even share on a non town map for bonuses to occur. Bonuses will not occur in PvP/WoE maps.
-This means an expanded class can only provide bonuses to Thirds until level 119, or could be disabled entirely.
-Extra class Bonus Effects are one off. Adding more of the same class will not increase this. Same share/map restrictions.

Probably forgot some notes, will add later.

Party System Proposal

http://img232.images.../partyprop.png/

Pretty simple,
-%Increase Per Member = The increase in exp awarded per monster killed for each additional party member.
-%Exp Per Member = The amount of exp reduced for having additional members in the party
-%Total Exp Earned Per Member = The actual amount of exp awarded to the player per monster kill in a party of the corresponding size. Each player earns this amount.


/derp

Oh, Edit: Area of effect: map wide. I'm not adverse to leeching, purely because I recognise that sometimes it's faster to do it yourself.

Edit 2: 2x Perma Exp please.

^

Edit: one thing that's annoying is how the current monster levels affect the level range of people in a party. for example, we know that we get optimal exp when we're 10 levels below a monster, but the share range has now increased to +/- 20 base levels. this means that, if the party is killing a level 100 monster, and player a is 90, they're getting the optimal exp, but if player b is any lower then 90, they start to lose exp. this basically boils down to while we -can- party people 20 levels below us, it's essentially a useless feature since noone can make proper use of it.

imo there should be some sort of exp/monster level adjustment when partied so that it is possible to party with someone 20 levels below you, though i do recognize that this would be pretty difficult to implement.

assuming of course you understand what i'm saying.

Edited by Frappuccino, 15 November 2010 - 11:48 PM.

[Kadelia]

2 people = 62.5% of original monster exp each
3 people = 50% of original monster exp each
4 people = 44% of original monster exp each
5 people = 40% of original monster exp each
6 people = 37% of original monster exp each
7 people = 35% of original monster exp each
8 people = 34% of original monster exp each
9 people = 33% of original monster exp each
10 people = 32% of original monster exp each
11 people = 31% of original monster exp each
12 people = 30% of original monster exp each

Would like to see 2 people around 75% and 3 people around 60%. 30% for 12 people sounds about right. Really, we should pay mind to undesired pairings though, as before. Monk + Alchemist needs a heftier EXP boost than Priest + Wizard.

[Theoretical]

same screen exp for the win. if someone can manage to leech someone this way they should be able to. ((think g fly wings))

[Resplendent]

I don't think punishing people for wanting to play alone is any better than punishing people for wanting to level with friends. Ideally, both methods would be good, and ideally, people have the freedom to choose without feeling they made the "wrong" choice.

What? Partying should have no advantages over soloing? I'm trying to figure out if you're seriously saying this, because it makes no sense at all.

[Kadelia]

What? Partying should have no advantages over soloing? I'm trying to figure out if you're seriously saying this, because it makes no sense at all.

I am not sure what the point of your post is because I have advocated making partying better than it currently is to the point where its somewhat better than soloing (but not grossly so). So either you didn't follow the topic at all and just looked for something you could quote and argue with or willfully chose to pretend those previous posts did not exist? I can't really determine which is the case.

Also, even if I DID advocate partying not being any better than soloing, I'd like to hear your arguments in favor of people having a better network of contacts being able to develop significantly faster than those wishing to focus more diligently on their own endeavors.

Even if there was a dead even heat for exp rate people would still party, because we are social creatures and amuse ourselves more easily in packs. That said, there is still the issue of diminished loot due to distribution in a group, so some bit of compensation (exp or otherwise) makes sense.