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Upcoming Skill Changes(Pt. 2); Templar, Tempest, and Radiant


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#26 Dyshana

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:56 AM

Tempest: give back the old Goldy Mirror

Radiant: decrease the mana used for heals. Radiants run out of mana too fast (don't tell me to pots)... radiants must heal, so they need more... it would be like saying to a tank to stop every 10 hits to clean his sword.


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#27 zombi3

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:56 AM

I like the idea about MP drain for Radiant, seems pretty interesting. I cant say I have a tempest but i agree, theres not much needed to change on it, except the AOE Color like mentioned before, not everyone has a great pc, and it causes alot of players to lag. just change the color, of aoe's make godly mirror a bit stronger in my opinion. Give radiant MP drain, and i agree with the change for healing mechanics, but that has to do with games mechanics not radiant's skills so i doubt it will take effect.. although would be nice to see.


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#28 DarkJackal

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 01:09 PM

A support=\=only healing. There are plenty of ways a class can support a team, and do damage. For instance, the current role of WLs and the role of WLs before hand was to frontline, yes, you could do damage. But the best thing you could do was break a bottleneck for your team through initiating the fight. Does WL have two party buffs? Yes. Does it have a debuff? Yes. A strong form of CC? Check. Now let's look at tempest, highly demanded casting and attack speed buffs? Check. Useful one point or maxed buff that increases damage? Check. A strong form of CC? Check.

Just saying those abilities help a party out a lot, plus the fact that they're able to produce a very great amount of damage in a short amount of time. Nobody ever said a tempest should replace a prot or radiant, not sure WHERE you linked that idea from, but the point of my post was FAR from saying they should be in the same boat.

Since you're relatively new I'll explain the rejuvenation changes with a little more detail. Previously the length of skills such as Natural Healing and Rejuvenation was 10 and 20 seconds of duration in comparison to how it is now at 4 seconds and 10 seconds. Both of these skills were one point wonders as the duration did not increase for rejuvenation, and for natural healing the return on it was not as great as well, but they actually DID something when used. Did they break the game? Not entirely, only when paired with item mall at level 69 FOC in particular, but again the scaling of that is very difficult because item mall.

WoG and BoH are very useful for dungeon parties as there are compositions that use defense debuffs to help melee out more. Example being dominator, avenger, and WL defense debuffs. Essentially, you're min/maxing by adding more attack speed and damage to your melee damage dealers while ensuring the raid bosses defense is at 0 or in the negative values.

 

I just don't see why a first job heal from lvl 1-28 should be useful to a lvl 70+, thats why there's second jobs, you can get the better heals if you choose the healer.

 

My point was can these ways of supporting your team do so without a radiant present to really heal/support? Perhaps I should of said leave healing to healing class. Strengthening these heals for classes other than healing class is gonna make healers less important I think.

Other classes should probably only have heals enough to keep you doing decently while soloing at lower/mid levels. But not that useful for parties/pvp.

 

I never meant their buffs arent useful. Although rogue, defender, hunter and berserker have attack speed buffs themselves also. Most classes have a supportive skill or two though that doesn't mean they are supports, nor does giving a debuff.

I can't speak for warlord since I never played it. But aside from lowering def and a couple buffs which give more atk and let you take more damage, arent warlords usually supposed to be focusing on hitting stuff?

 

 

With just me and an avenger I play support by healing her when she needs. I don't think the def buff is all that great anymore being only +200 or so, but like the heal, if you want a better def to give then thats what radiant is for? I don't need to buff her atkspd since she has her own. And the atk one doesn't affect her. If we had another melee class I could use it on them, and the atkspd one depending on if they needed it or use their own. Healing I could still do to whoever needed it, but if we started getting more mobs I may not be able to keep up. I do a lot of dmg though putting down the aoes, I think thats how i'm most useful, disabling and aoeing, doing damage.

I certainly wouldn't consider her a support though. Sure she can lower the targets defense, but isn't that a skill mainly meant for avenger's benefit? Not to simply support a party, even though it may be useful to one.

 

If we got some more people and went to a dungeon of our level, can I keep up with heals on a boss with around 1k heal every 12 seconds? We would need a real support wouldn't we? A radiant and or a tank? I would rather be focusing on doing damage rather then using my 1 heal to try and keep a whole party alive. And my buffs are welcomed but hardly as required as heals.

 

I don't know what it's like at 70-90, but is it all that different in terms of skills? The only skill I've yet to get is the cast time buff atm. Are tempests all that needed for support in high level parties? Can you do dungeons without radiants?
 

 

I'm not all that new really, I made my Templar is 2010 or so, I stopped it at 44 to level my protector and commander. I only just recently started to level it again after stopping sometime in 2012.

 

 

 

 

 

 

U dont play long enough... every class in this game can tank with right gear... noone needs rads coz of op pots...

 

It's like that in most games though, were not talking about gear were talking about skills. Your supposed to be able to pwn and do better then normal with pimped gear. But if even magic users can tank with good gear/pots to a point where healers/tankers arent needed i'd say thats not a problem with skills.


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#29 Viole

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 01:27 PM

 

I just don't see why a first job heal from lvl 1-28 should be useful to a lvl 70+, thats why there's second jobs, you can get the better heals if you choose the healer.

 

Again the point was not to make it a healing class, what you don't understand is that mystic itself benefited most from heals being upscaled in effectiveness.

 

My point was can these ways of supporting your team do so without a radiant present to really heal/support? Perhaps I should of said leave healing to healing class. Strengthening these heals for classes other than healing class is gonna make healers less important I think.

Other classes should probably only have heals enough to keep you doing decently while soloing at lower/mid levels. But not that useful for parties/pvp.

 

Every LITTLE bit of healing counts, for ANY class even if it's a single target HoT on yourself. Sometimes even these heals are not enough to save you, or sometimes they are. Healing classes will not become less important because of ONE heal that doesn't scale epically having an increased duration at level 1, you're completely ignoring the way the HoT formula works. It's simply a matter of providing SOME sustain, but it's NOT NECESSARY.

 

I never meant their buffs arent useful. Although rogue, defender, hunter and berserker have attack speed buffs themselves also. Most classes have a supportive skill or two though that doesn't mean they are supports, nor does giving a debuff.

I can't speak for warlord since I never played it. But aside from lowering def and a couple buffs which give more atk and let you take more damage, arent warlords usually supposed to be focusing on hitting stuff?

 

Your lack of game knowledge shows here, not to be rude. For a berserker it's easier to reach 1.0 attack speed with BoH and not have to worry about the defense loss from Reckless Attack. I think with 72 you barely reach 1.0 attack speed as it is? (Haven't played AA serk in forever so I don't recall exactly) In the case of sins/SRs and rangers you can reach 1.0 attack speed with a long range weapon only through BoH (range extension lowers attack speed when in use) . WL is an initiator but can be supportive by controlling the fight, as a WL our damage is okay, the less defense the target has the easier it is to get out. Of course there are WLs that go for raw DPS, that's them. Personally, I focus more on taking priority targets out of a fight rather than killing, or I simply won't get the chance to do much after I get my  main skills off even though I'm built to last gear wise. But, this is my role as a initiator, normally my team has to follow up on this now as I can't stay for an extended period of time against the other team. (Going to cut this here because this is better suited for WL discussions)

 

With just me and an avenger I play support by healing her when she needs. I don't think the def buff is all that great anymore being only +200 or so, but like the heal, if you want a better def to give then thats what radiant is for? I don't need to buff her atkspd since she has her own. And the atk one doesn't affect her. If we had another melee class I could use it on them, and the atkspd one depending on if they needed it or use their own. Healing I could still do to whoever needed it, but if we started getting more mobs I may not be able to keep up. I do a lot of dmg though putting down the aoes, I think thats how i'm most useful, disabling and aoeing, doing damage.

I certainly wouldn't consider her a support though. Sure she can lower the targets defense, but isn't that a skill mainly meant for avenger's benefit? Not to simply support a party, even though it may be useful to one.

 

You're a DPS with SUPPORTIVE capabilities in terms of BUFFS available to your party. I never once said TEMPESTS should take a healing role. They're DPS with supportive qualities FROM THEIR SKILL SET. Attack speed, attack power, and casting speed buffs. But as I've stated they do their DPS job pretty well.

 

If we got some more people and went to a dungeon of our level, can I keep up with heals on a boss with around 1k heal every 12 seconds? We would need a real support wouldn't we? A radiant and or a tank? I would rather be focusing on doing damage rather then using my 1 heal to try and keep a whole party alive. And my buffs are welcomed but hardly as required as heals.

 

I don't know what it's like at 70-90, but is it all that different in terms of skills? The only skill I've yet to get is the cast time buff atm. Are tempests all that needed for support in high level parties? Can you do dungeons without radiants?

 

You can do dungeons with a party of +30 mystics. Tempests aren't as welcome as other classes, but one tempest is okay for their buffs. Again, don't take this out of context. You're a DPS with SUPPORTIVE CAPABILITIES. Not a true support. If you want someone to secondary heal and clear DoTs you take some mystics.
 

 

I'm not all that new really, I made my Templar is 2010 or so, I stopped it at 44 to level my protector and commander. I only just recently started to level it again after stopping sometime in 2012.

 

This is relatively new in comparison to a lot of the other people that have posted. You won't get that much insight unless you've actually played steadily at 69 or at cap, especially with PvP as a new player is just instantly demolished because of the gear differences.

 

 

 *Replies are in bold because it's a lot of different things that you're not quite grasping the context of.


Edited by Viole, 22 April 2014 - 01:29 PM.

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#30 AngelicPretty

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 01:29 PM

Sure invig sux other than a buffer buff for soccerkick.

but all classes have a sucky lul skill. remove if u want but dosnt do any harm there. dev's attention is better used else where in game.

 

Moving radis lvl 80 skill to 60 is just stupid. that is a op ass skill in pvp. suits end game fine but would make rad in 69  WAY to OP.

Radi at 69 is best single target anti caster toon. and with con NM jwls a monster.

even just old ref jwls & no cell along with no briska set my old one goes well. check my sig for Burlesque and see what kinda kills a twink rad can do in 69 foc.

give them lvl80 skill is stupid.

 

as for tempest I still think they are fine. should be low def glass cannons(72 set).. or sacrifice attack for survivability of 85 set etc.

 

As for raising heals. Not sure why. in pve a there aint rly a dungeon a that needs the extra healing power.. if so then bring another radi. PvP wise - they already game changers with current heals. even a crapy rad heals 5k+ thats 2 or 3 hits from a player.(by what time rad would of also poped  a few more heals)

 

Personaly say the turan casters are fine. Devs should focus on fixing game not screwing with classes.


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#31 Spyclop

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:51 PM

Templar:

They desperately need an aoe to help with leveling and such. The pew pew can be fun, but when its one at a time, it turns into QQ. I remember on one of the Friday live videos you guys mentioned how things need to be killed more in mass. This will help with the boring grind factor. Possibly move lightning restraint to templar class or develop a new unique skill.

 

Radiant:

Sleep and hush need to be readjusted somehow. The fact that radiants can chain hush and sleep on casters is broken. Perhaps increase cool-down to 30 seconds and have max duration set to 10 seconds. As for heals go, range should be increased. This could be done by reducing movement speed or having a separate skill for buffing heal range. Since radiant don't have much hp, they should be able keep a safe distance from boss aoe.

 

Tempest:

Dim the lights on the light show. I'm going to get an aneurysm dubstep style. The old yellow wasn't bad. 


Edited by Spyclop, 22 April 2014 - 02:53 PM.

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#32 DarkJackal

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:16 PM

Every LITTLE bit of healing counts, for ANY class even if it's a single target HoT on yourself. Sometimes even these heals are not enough to save you, or sometimes they are. Healing classes will not become less important because of ONE heal that doesn't scale epically having an increased duration at level 1, you're completely ignoring the way the HoT formula works. It's simply a matter of providing SOME sustain, but it's NOT NECESSARY.

 

Your lack of game knowledge shows here, not to be rude. For a berserker it's easier to reach 1.0 attack speed with BoH and not have to worry about the defense loss from Reckless Attack. I think with 72 you barely reach 1.0 attack speed as it is? (Haven't played AA serk in forever so I don't recall exactly) In the case of sins/SRs and rangers you can reach 1.0 attack speed with a long range weapon only through BoH (range extension lowers attack speed when in use) . WL is an initiator but can be supportive by controlling the fight, as a WL our damage is okay, the less defense the target has the easier it is to get out. Of course there are WLs that go for raw DPS, that's them. Personally, I focus more on taking priority targets out of a fight rather than killing, or I simply won't get the chance to do much after I get my  main skills off even though I'm built to last gear wise. But, this is my role as a initiator, normally my team has to follow up on this now as I can't stay for an extended period of time against the other team. (Going to cut this here because this is better suited for WL discussions)

 

You're a DPS with SUPPORTIVE capabilities in terms of BUFFS available to your party. I never once said TEMPESTS should take a healing role. They're DPS with supportive qualities FROM THEIR SKILL SET. Attack speed, attack power, and casting speed buffs. But as I've stated they do their DPS job pretty well.

 

You can do dungeons with a party of +30 mystics. Tempests aren't as welcome as other classes, but one tempest is okay for their buffs. Again, don't take this out of context. You're a DPS with SUPPORTIVE CAPABILITIES. Not a true support. If you want someone to secondary heal and clear DoTs you take some mystics.

 

This is relatively new in comparison to a lot of the other people that have posted. You won't get that much insight unless you've actually played steadily at 69 or at cap, especially with PvP as a new player is just instantly demolished because of the gear differences.

You want a stronger heal to give tempest, right? But your supposed pick a job with templar to either be a healer or a dps? So why should rejuvenation be stronger in anyway? Tempest isn't meant to be support I think, nor is it meant to tank. I don't see why it should need stronger heals to help it do either.

 

What class doesn't have supportive capabilities in terms of buffs/debuffs though?

 

 

I don't think +30 mystics should be taken into account when were talking about skills as well though.


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#33 cevaceva62

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:31 PM

Suggestions for Radiants:

Remove heals! Seriously, they're useless

 

PS:I was being ironic!


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#34 Viole

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:40 PM

 

You want a stronger heal to give tempest, right? But your supposed pick a job with templar to either be a healer or a dps? So why should rejuvenation be stronger in anyway? Tempest isn't meant to be support I think, nor is it meant to tank. I don't see why it should need stronger heals to help it do either.

 

What class doesn't have supportive capabilities in terms of buffs/debuffs though?

 

 

I don't think +30 mystics should be taken into account when were talking about skills as well though.

 

 

1. Not stronger, just the duration increased, and it more-so applies for all self casted HoTs. Rejuvenation is fine where it's at, but 15-20s of duration is slightly better and not game-breaking. Natural healing is the HoT that should be looked at since it's 4 seconds of duration. All of these should be normalized. You're not reading and it's pretty taxing to point this out. Where did I say tempests should tank? I've spoken on the antithesis of this the entire time. Read before you hit that reply button please.

 

2. Ranger. (it's a debuff on the player at the advantage of better attack)

Berserker.

 

3. Every single stage of reinforcement should be taken into account, not doing so is idiotic.

 


Edited by Viole, 22 April 2014 - 04:17 PM.

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#35 KraizerReziark

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 05:12 PM

 

1. Not stronger, just the duration increased, and it more-so applies for all self casted HoTs. Rejuvenation is fine where it's at, but 15-20s of duration is slightly better and not game-breaking. Natural healing is the HoT that should be looked at since it's 4 seconds of duration. All of these should be normalized. You're not reading and it's pretty taxing to point this out. Where did I say tempests should tank? I've spoken on the antithesis of this the entire time. Read before you hit that reply button please.

 

 

I wouldn't mind another dna slot that allowed us to use an AOE rejuvenation, that way there wouldn't need to be a duration increase. Would be nifty for those small dungeon runs or party questing.


Edited by KraizerReziark, 22 April 2014 - 05:13 PM.

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#36 AngelicPretty

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 09:04 PM

New Skill for Radi

Lvl 80 or 90.

Mana Recovery.

 

either as a-

- HoT. with mana heal ticking like a normal HP recovery would for either single target or party.

- Static mana heal. useing radies HP as the cost to heal a single targets mana X amount.

 

60 sec CD.

 

Some classes are real mana whores and burn mana fast in raids.

Long CD so radies dont target self and become even more godly at 1v1 pvp.

 

Was talking to old alchy radi who reminded me of the time mystics heal totem also healed mana and how she would tank raids as radi. keeping agro from her heals. 

those days thankfully are past but the idea of high lvl mana heal is kinda cool. more so if it sacrifices the rads HP in order to do it.

 

Kim 


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#37 Crftwise

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 11:12 PM

  Templar...

 

   Charged Bolt...... Make it an AOE Effect as in the Shaman skill- Flame Arrow.

   Rejuvenation...... Lower the cool down or allow it to Crit.

   Lesser Heal........ 10 sec cool down

   Magic Shield Mastery..... Should increase Block % Chance as well.  (perhaps DNA for this one)

   Sleep.....  i like someone idea above that ANY attack but electrical, breaks sleep.

 

 

  Tempest...

 

   Lightning Restraint....  Seperate the "slow effect" from the damage. As it stands now, this skill is USELESS vs BOSS because of Boss immunity to "slow" effects. Increase skill tree past 10 because LR caps too early or make it more powerful (start at a higher level) Along the lines of Holy Light.

 

   Godly Mirror... In S1, this was indeed a nice skill. Perhaps a little too OP. In S2 its just the opposite...Too weak. You need to find a balance between S1-S2. Reflected Damage should be AT LEAST  30% not 13%.The chance of it reflection is currently at 30% at level 5. That seems fine as you can increase that to 37% with DNA. In S1 it was 60% damage reflected at 40% Chance, I believe.  Should work vs Melee skills as well as AA.

 

   Instant Moving.... Skill should be INSTANT like the name says WITHOUT DNA. But increase the COOL DOWN. DNA can reduce the cool down.

 

  Just off the top of my head......

 

  Oh and

 

  Bring back Blunt Strike. To make it Templar or Tempest Skill is the real question.

 

  And as far as WOG and Haste, their ok being AOE, but for the love of the gods, allow more skills on toon. I hate having pet "vanish" because some tard casts WOG on me.

 

   

 


Edited by Crftwise, 22 April 2014 - 11:23 PM.

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#38 Nerthu

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:08 AM

 


 

   Godly Mirror... In S1, this was indeed a nice skill. Perhaps a little too OP. In S2 its just the opposite...Too weak. You need to find a balance between S1-S2. Reflected Damage should be AT LEAST  30% not 13%.The chance of it reflection is currently at 30% at level 5. That seems fine as you can increase that to 37% with DNA. In S1 it was 60% damage reflected at 40% Chance, I believe.  Should work vs Melee skills as well as AA.

 

i see in future radis pull maps and just heal them self wile mobs get a selfkill will atacking the rad.


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#39 Justtank

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:22 AM

I played tempest as level 70-86 for a couple years, mostly in PvE and Strongest, level 70 and below that as Radiant.

 

Templar Tree

HoT skill, Rejuvenation should have a slightly longer duration at level 1.

 

Tempest Tree

Weapon of God and Blessing of Haste costs too many skillpoints (10) to Max, considering it is of no use to the character.

Take Mystic Bloodlust for example.. it has use for both the caster itself, and melee characters in party.

Lightning Restraint as mentioned before, is useless against bosses, and should be fixed.


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#40 Crftwise

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 12:36 AM

i see in future radis pull maps and just heal them self wile mobs get a selfkill will atacking the rad.

 

  Rad does NOT have Godly Mirror..... Thats is a Tempest Only Skill.


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#41 Nerthu

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 01:01 AM

  Rad does NOT have Godly Mirror..... Thats is a Tempest Only Skill.

 

sorry. my misstake. in s1 it was a templar skill. i haven saw that on the top of your post stay tempest XD


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#42 Crftwise

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 01:52 AM

sorry. my misstake. in s1 it was a templar skill. i haven saw that on the top of your post stay tempest XD

 

  NP.. You are right tho, rad should NOT have Godly Mirror... I prob wouldnt even give them Blunt Strike...


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#43 Howako

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 02:55 AM

Agreed Godly and Blunt were loads of fun in s1 on my radi.. made solo grinding little more fun and watching sins have to dash away so not to kill themselves was nice too.  probably a bit OP on Radiant side because of Mana Shield.

 

I'd leave heal formulas as they are.. would be nice if party heals were more than 10 people, perhaps up to 15 for a full alliance party. there are only a few Rads even left in the game now, so by increasing the amount of targets for pt heals will make room for more ppl per raid that can join and be covered by heals.

 

Godly should definitely remain on Tempest skill tree and fixed so its useful again. Also agree with Craft that shield mastery should increase block % as well.

 

Bring back Blunt Strike to Templar tree, a tiny 3 sec stun is minor compared to other stun/trap/fear/hush.. I wanna annoy the crap out of ppl on the battleground again.

 

WoG and Haste back to single target buff OR could add magic damage to WoG so its useful to casters... Or maybe not, that will defeat purpose later on with fixing Elementalist to be useful in the game again. I Want to go around buffing ppl at will WITHOUT a party like I used to do, its just inconvenient to make a party and buff those that ask. Why it was ever made into a party buff never made sense.

 

definitely need to allow for more buffs! I pay good money for my pets every month to benefit my toons only to have them kicked due to all the buffs from others in the group. I'm sure many will agree.


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#44 de0ne

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 07:54 AM

i jus read this topic and i demand more self heals on warriors k?


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#45 Vulcano

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:00 AM

i jus read this topic and i demand more self heals on warriors k?

this we want more heals xD


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#46 Viole

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 08:10 AM


It's really bad when important buffs and pet get kicked off by my own teammates buffing me and by being debuffed when I go in to fight.

Especially for those that put armor enchants into their gear, that and pet should register differently (or at least pet because I mean come on you have to get one every month.)

On the boh change, do you really want to go around buffing every single person on a BG or a full raid? Yeah, I know it's annoying to be added to a party just to buff, but in the long run it's a quality of life change for raids and pvp.

Edited by Viole, 23 April 2014 - 08:12 AM.

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#47 DarkJackal

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:28 AM

i jus read this topic and i demand more self heals on warriors k?

 

I think we should normalize protectors heals. Make make them last their max duration from level 1. For that matter, all buffs in the game should be normalized to a universal duration from level 1.

 

We should also give protectors an aoe like tempest's.

 

Tempests should be given a shield block and party defense buff too.

 

Battle mages would benefit from an hp buff as well.

 

:heh:


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#48 Howako

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 09:41 AM

On the boh change, do you really want to go around buffing every single person on a BG or a full raid? Yeah, I know it's annoying to be added to a party just to buff, but in the long run it's a quality of life change for raids and pvp.

 

Ok yea I do see your point there.. my Temp is mostly a farmer with occasional raid just for smth diff to do besides heal, so didnt see it from that perspective. So the best solution here is to allow us to have more buffs for less chance of them being kicked.


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#49 Skid

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Posted 23 April 2014 - 11:28 PM

IMO, remove the +30 mallho'ing from game, adjust bosses/mobs, and see how every class has it's role in party.
Until then you simply CAN'T BALANCE the classes since EVERY freaking +30 (or near) whatever class/role it is can solo anything in the game. I mean....a "squishy" assassin soloing world boss without healer? Seriously? or...a defiler tanking in ROBE armor....cmon.
Just find on YT the good old SvS days,after that look for a "fresh" clip and you'll see what have you done!
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#50 LPgirl

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:45 AM

Dont tuch the radis,pls i dont want to change my job XD


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