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Discussion: Urgent Recall


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Poll: Discussion: Urgent Recall (145 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you want Urgent Recall gone and replaced with another Guild Skill?

  1. Yes, let them hoof it! It provides a better experience! (74 votes [51.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.03%

  2. No, I need my skill! It reminds me of Nic Cage in The Rock! (Reference: http://i.imgur.com/3d84yhB.jpg) (47 votes [32.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.41%

  3. I don't care. It doesn't affect me. (24 votes [16.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.55%

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#76 8ReN8

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 07:23 PM

meh ignoring the bs.. -.-

 

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reason y... been abused far to long only few guilds ever used it as "intended" to begin with and used correctly 3 recalls wouldnt help much to anyones standards.

 

skill sugestions

 

 

1 75% wind speed, immune to stuns, dots

 

2 immunity ability to get out of binds 15-30s but cant atk

 

3. 10s immune but can atk

 

4. hp boost 25% and hp/sp regen 1000%

 

5. Dragon buff for a min becuz everyone wants dragon buff

 

6. recall but limited # per guild so like 3 recalls per woe as intended.

 

7. able to make ur whole guild not show up on the map for 2-3 mins

 

8.  able to do 25% more dmg to to pve "gates,forts, emp" not pvp or able to heal 1-5% of pve with 20s

 

i gave a few ideas... gotta be more out there -.-

 

when and if recall ever gets implemented again i doubt the tthe 15m cd will help anyone..

 

 


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#77 9632130515120055620

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 07:32 PM

Shadowslash mentions that recall is a "cheesy" tactic only after his guild holds a castle.

 

...wat. If this thread was made before we won WoE my vote would have been the same. In fact, after Exodus won last thursday I "gg"ed to them and Bily also agreed in normal chat that WoE was much more enjoyable without it. Dumping your entire guild (or part of) onto an emperium is cheesy. Why is it okay to negate the defending guilds attempt of defense and just ignore PvP? You can't keep calling people out with these targeted suspicion sentences yet make it out that you're trying to change WoE for the greater good.


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#78 Baddiez

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 07:33 PM

meh ignoring the bs.. -.-

 

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8Ren8

 

reason y... been abused far to long only few guilds ever used it as "intended" to begin with and used correctly 3 recalls wouldnt help much to anyones standards.

 

skill sugestions

 

 

1 75% wind speed, immune to stuns, dots

 

2 immunity ability to get out of binds 15-30s but cant atk

 

3. 10s immune but can atk

 

4. hp boost 25% and hp/sp regen 1000%

 

5. Dragon buff for a min becuz everyone wants dragon buff

 

6. recall but limited # per guild so like 3 recalls per woe as intended.

 

7. able to make ur whole guild not show up on the map for 2-3 mins

 

8.  able to do 25% more dmg to to pve "gates,forts, emp" not pvp or able to heal 1-5% of pve with 20s

 

i gave a few ideas... gotta be more out there -.-

 

when and if recall ever gets implemented again i doubt the tthe 15m cd will help anyone..

It could help depending on how you use it. I can think of many situations that it would be pretty nice even with a 15 min cd.


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#79 TifaValentine

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 07:47 PM

Spoiler

 

Which is, more or less, with a few more and many less things, what I said in my previous post. So I agree with you on those points, Vau. WoE needs to FIRST be fixed, before applying stupid pointless band-aids. Disabling Recall IS one of those band-aid fixes. Some are saying it makes a big difference... yeah... because we're all adapting to a band-aid bug. Fact remains, WoE is a disaster and it has been a disaster for a long while (whover the hell was and is the castle owner I don't care). 

I'd go for choice C, because frankly...I dont believe disabling Recall will help in anything, but keeping it while it can be abused and abusers running free and rampant, isn't helping either.

I could care less about recall. It helps some, it annoys others. It all depends on the situation. I care more about WoE actually being fixed for real, instead of small little temporary fixes, or "fixes born out of panic". I'm tired of those.

 

I'm just gonna tell you that if we lost WoE for some months ago till now, it was cause we were outnumbered by Exodus, and now that we are outnumbering your alliance things won't be the same as before, even Urgent Recall won't save you from now on.

 

That just sounds like such a threat, Vau. However not true at all. Exodus has been outnumbered many times in the past, however there was no real alliances or communication or team work between many of the attacking guilds, most kept (and keep...) just rushing to the emp like zergs on a nomming crusade, devouring everything and everyone in their way with or without salt xDD But yes... please.. let's keep "guild drama" out of this thread, it's not the right place.

 

Come on, guys. What the heck are you all turning this game into? We can't blame just devs, if we're all gonna dedicate to just go at each other's throats and toss accusations and threats and mock and insult each other? There's a LOOOOOT of people here who have COMPLETELY LOST ALL PERSPECTIVE and only care about whatever benefits THEM, while disguising as general benefit. Keep the QQ and mocking and comebacks to pms or private messengers and such, and focus here on what the real issues are. Not on what benefits YOUR guild, or you alone, or what YOU alone think its "fun" or "fair", or who did what or when.

 

 

Don't take the bait Vau....

 

From what i have understood the guilds I have spoken to, mainly the allied ones we have are not afraid of recall or anything like that. As much as x guild is being called out by y guilds y guild also abused a "bug" (lead swapping for more recalls) which according to the gms was also not an intended feature for WoE. We can continue to provoke each other here and get nothing done or each side can state their points and understand that some people will not agree with them. We both have a goal, to have our points heard/seen and hopefully achieve the results we want.I apologize about the flamey/trolly posts from my guilds on this thread and hopefully we can continue to have a nice discussion about recall.

 

Edit: For any UC and allied guild members or anyone who really cares to listen  :). Please don't try to troll or flame this thread. I would like for us to discuss our points and keep this open. At current if it keeps going the way it has been it'll just be closed/hidden and nothing will have been achieved through the posts and feedback people have posted here. If you want to troll and rage just use guild chat  :)

 

 

Well said, Baddiez. Well said. This goes to anyone posting here!

 

(Edit= I liked Ren's suggestions for replacing recall o-o)


Edited by TifaValentine, 29 April 2014 - 07:50 PM.

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#80 Billeh

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:00 PM

...wat. If this thread was made before we won WoE my vote would have been the same. In fact, after Exodus won last thursday I "gg"ed to them and Bily also agreed in normal chat that WoE was much more enjoyable without it. Dumping your entire guild (or part of) onto an emperium is cheesy. Why is it okay to negate the defending guilds attempt of defense and just ignore PvP? You can't keep calling people out with these targeted suspicion sentences yet make it out that you're trying to change WoE for the greater good.

While I sure as hell enjoyed trying it out (seriously it was fun for me personally) I'm not entirely convinced it's the best design for the map overall, for all guilds to participate in the way that WoE was meant to be done. That said, I see a few people who haven't had much experience retaining a castle trying to claim defense due to recall is negated. I mean, come on guys. We've retained the castle for so long, against superior numbers at times even, against recalls on the emp, around the emp and even attempts to abuse a bug to recall on it before anyone else can get to it. What you're saying and what the actual truth is just doesn't match up.

I remember a few weeks back 3 different guilds recalled all at one fort at the same time past a good chunk of opposing forces trying to break it and yet it held. Granted, the balance wasn't thrown completely out of whack with bad hit-rate no longer covering for the insane amount of damage output players can dish out if all of their attacks hit. (imho this is a bigger problem that some seem to ignore)

If/when it gets re-introduced, fixed from bugs that allow entire guilds to show up where they're not supposed to be and with a Global Cooldown implemented instead of an individual one to allow only a few recalls a WoE, I don't for a second believe it'll impact defense as much as said here. Honestly Recall isn't as great of a tool in RO2 as it was in RO1 so if it's too hard to deal with here, god knows how you'd deal with it there.

As an aside, I notice one of the popular suggestions involves a movement speed boost. What I find redundant about this is there's already things in place (defense stone statues) to apply better boosts to speed in Area of Effects by more than just the Guild Leader than those that are proposed to replace recall. 


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#81 Tianciel

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:22 PM

All this discussion sounds a bit fishy to me.

 

I don't remember there was any outcry about recall being a "lazy way" either when Exo was the guild that was holding the castle. Now, when Uncrowned is the castle holder, a sudden outcry about removing recall because of the loopholes that they used emerged. Shadowslash mentions that recall is a "cheesy" tactic only after his guild holds a castle.

 

Even funnier, he mentions that recall that is done by stealth classes allow a guild to "notably get past defenses that defending guilds have set up and move the entire guild past them" when his guild deliberately chose to used the loophole in recall to get his guild past everything in WOE to reach the castle right away. Well, he is saying that recall is cheesy and allows to get through too easily, when his guild is the one who used the loophole.

 

Vau started saying that recall "destroys any kind of tactic to defend the empellium against a high numbered team" when his guild is one of the defending guild that benefits from the absence of recall.

 

Also remember, the reason that recall was taken out was because of this: http://forums.warppo...w-woe-problems/

 

Now, the loophole founders and users want recall to be out of the game only after they deliberately used the bug, won the castle and became the defending team, because recall is a cheesy, lazy tactic that destroys any tactic to defend. Vau, if it destroys ANY defending tactic, then Exo would have lost their castle long time ago regardless of their tactic.

 

Well, I am still undecided at this current point, but the discussion in this thread seems to be very one sided.

 

Recall has been out for 2 WoEs already, and I have been on the attacking team for both, yet I still think the dynamics were better that way. Furthermore, most of the defending is done at fortresses and anyone who has done WoE knows that those will swap ownership many times throughout WoE. Regardless of whether or not you start as the defending squad you will need to defend at some points. I think castle/fort defence should have SOME role, and with recall as it is defence is all but obsolete. Unless the number difference is enormous, a recall past the defence team will result in a fallen fortress. Yes it's possible for people to kill attackers once they've penetrated the first barriers, but by then they are already doing damage on the empelliums. Simply attacking, dying, spineling, attacking, dying should do enough damage to destroy it.

 

I can't speak for others, but I would simply like to have a discussion and improve WoE. With no new content my play time is WoE and farming... and I'm sure you can guess which is more fun ;)

 

To emphasize my point, let me give an example:

We attacked the eastern fortress last woe for a good twenty minutes, but the defence set up there was very good and we were not able to get in for the longest time. Yes, it was frustrating to get killed repeatedly (though I took some pleasure in kiting a dozen people - albeit only for a few seconds), but that is how pvp is, or should be - A contest between players. It is not enjoyable to simply port onto an objective and attack it. I have used recalls to attack fortresses before, and most of the time I simply ignored incoming attacks and focused the empellium. There was nothing pvp-like other than sending a few heals to my allies (but even that is limited since people bring potions). 

 

As a final point, you seem to be forgetting that there are two loopholes

1) Lead Swapping to reset recall timer (when it works)

2) Recalling late to avoiding porting out after map refresh

Both should be fixed, or recall removed entirely.

 

Up until now the first loophole has not been studied, very few guilds did WoE and thus the topic has never come up. I'm not trying to blame either guild I would just like to say that both of these loopholes should be fixed. 


Edited by Tianciel, 29 April 2014 - 08:54 PM.

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#82 Baddiez

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:32 PM

While I sure as hell enjoyed trying it out (seriously it was fun for me personally) I'm not entirely convinced it's the best design for the map overall, for all guilds to participate in the way that WoE was meant to be done. That said, I see a few people who haven't had much experience retaining a castle trying to claim defense due to recall is negated. I mean, come on guys. We've retained the castle for so long, against superior numbers at times even, against recalls on the emp, around the emp and even attempts to abuse a bug to recall on it before anyone else can get to it. What you're saying and what the actual truth is just doesn't match up.

I remember a few weeks back 3 different guilds recalled all at one fort at the same time past a good chunk of opposing forces trying to break it and yet it held. Granted, the balance wasn't thrown completely out of whack with bad hit-rate no longer covering for the insane amount of damage output players can dish out if all of their attacks hit. (imho this is a bigger problem that some seem to ignore)

If/when it gets re-introduced, fixed from bugs that allow entire guilds to show up where they're not supposed to be and with a Global Cooldown implemented instead of an individual one to allow only a few recalls a WoE, I don't for a second believe it'll impact defense as much as said here. Honestly Recall isn't as great of a tool in RO2 as it was in RO1 so if it's too hard to deal with here, god knows how you'd deal with it there.

As an aside, I notice one of the popular suggestions involves a movement speed boost. What I find redundant about this is there's already things in place (defense stone statues) to apply better boosts to speed in Area of Effects by more than just the Guild Leader than those that are proposed to replace recall. 

While outnumbered indeed, I being a part of the defending guild at that time can confidently say that the forces attacking were  uncoordinated and extremely disorganized.  Yes, the people posting do no have much experience holding the castles and their claims may seems extremely exaggerated and baseless, but I for one believe that recall could have potentially been used in a much better way to bring about the results that they mentioned( by passing all defense and avoiding pvp). The main deterrent to emp breaking immediately after a recall is Mortar spamming and Priest stun spam and random aoe to hopefully get lucky and hit the stealth recallers(not saying or implying this is not an ok tactic) but both if not just the mortars could be countered easily by merely sending 2-4 stealth along with the recaller or using protection stones when recalling. This would not only attract attention away from where the recall is to take place, but also in the process priests can be killed and mortars taken out to facilitate the emp breaking process for their guild(s). Recall in itself is not necessarily as strong of a tool as it is made out to be by some I believe that the action taken before a recall is really what determines how effective it will be(Although I still stick to my previous opinion of it being removed unless completely fixed and changed). Unless you recall 100's of people which probably won't happen considering how low server population is

 

About the defense stones it seems new guilds and people seem to be lacking information regarding woe siege and did not know about that. Even I, myself forgot about it until about half way though WoE Sunday, but regardless you make a very valid point. We already have a speed boost via Siege and an attack boost and a group aoe stealth(a few of the suggestions mentioned the latter)


Edited by Baddiez, 29 April 2014 - 08:41 PM.

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#83 Lanie

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:33 PM

(Edit= I liked Ren's suggestions for replacing recall o-o)

Aww, I thought my input was at least pretty helpful... I worked hard to come up with a handful of helpful suggestions...
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#84 Baddiez

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:35 PM

Aww, I thought my input was at least pretty helpful... I worked hard to come up with a handful of helpful suggestions...

I liked yours :D


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#85 Lanie

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:45 PM

Biggest issue with the speed boost from the Defense Statue is that using the statue revokes any Wind Pots, as well as prevents using any. But I still agree that we have enough speed on the map that we don't need suddenly more speed. Haven't seen any insight towards other directions though, such as an Emp Defense buff or even reuse of "Auto Revive" to replace Recall. Being able to mass revive your entire guild should be at least comparable to people who like revive while work for those who want something else. I agree, it's not solidly awesome, but... I tired.

I also worked hard to come up with some of the best solutions to make sure recall would work well too. Changing cooldown to a guild-wide debuff should actually work. It could even work if recall is limited to being only able to recall in locations under certain conditions, which then prevents gate abuse or other weird location recalls. I thought I had that one... But really hardly any support for it at all...
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#86 Baddiez

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:48 PM

Biggest issue with the speed boost from the Defense Statue is that using the statue revokes any Wind Pots, as well as prevents using any. But I still agree that we have enough speed on the map that we don't need suddenly more speed. Haven't seen any insight towards other directions though, such as an Emp Defense buff or even reuse of "Auto Revive" to replace Recall. Being able to mass revive your entire guild should be at least comparable to people who like revive while work for those who want something else. I agree, it's not solidly awesome, but... I tired.

I also worked hard to come up with some of the best solutions to make sure recall would work well too. Changing cooldown to a guild-wide debuff should actually work. It could even work if recall is limited to being only able to recall in locations under certain conditions, which then prevents gate abuse or other weird location recalls. I thought I had that one... But really hardly any support for it at all...

 

Someone suggested just giving a cd to guild lead swap which seems a little extreme but would work fine I suppose. There are not many reason to swap guild leader for anything as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong please). Also mass revive seems interesting as long as it also has a cast time insta auto revive would be silly imo, but the adding emp defense skill was the one I liked the most. The objectives in woe are just entirely too squishy atm. If it worked similar to the heal over time skill i described it would be interesting(unless you meant a perma buff).


Edited by Baddiez, 29 April 2014 - 08:50 PM.

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#87 Quetzalcoatlx

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:50 PM

Just came to realization , they should fix the kafra save points might help alot I guess


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#88 Baddiez

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:52 PM

Just came to realization , they should fix the kafra save points might help alot I guess

 

Idk if that may have been intended. It prevents just spamming a million saves and never having to res at the bottom, but even if they fixed it those saves get one shot by aoe so it would be pretty useless unless they were well hidden.


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#89 Tianciel

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:54 PM

While I sure as hell enjoyed trying it out (seriously it was fun for me personally) I'm not entirely convinced it's the best design for the map overall, for all guilds to participate in the way that WoE was meant to be done. That said, I see a few people who haven't had much experience retaining a castle trying to claim defense due to recall is negated. I mean, come on guys. We've retained the castle for so long, against superior numbers at times even, against recalls on the emp, around the emp and even attempts to abuse a bug to recall on it before anyone else can get to it. What you're saying and what the actual truth is just doesn't match up.

I remember a few weeks back 3 different guilds recalled all at one fort at the same time past a good chunk of opposing forces trying to break it and yet it held. Granted, the balance wasn't thrown completely out of whack with bad hit-rate no longer covering for the insane amount of damage output players can dish out if all of their attacks hit. (imho this is a bigger problem that some seem to ignore)
 

 
Winning WoE as a whole requires a bit more than simply bypassing defences. As I mentioned earlier, the defending guild is rarely the only one to ever own a fort. Both sides must attack and can bypass defences, if the castle owners do it more or better (timing is key) they can win. I believe "Attack is the best defence" is the best way to describe WoE with recall, but that in no way puts the defending guild at a disadvantage - at the very least not for the castle. Also, Keep in mind that many recalls by the losing side do indeed take the castle and bypass defences, so the point is not moot simply because you won. The fact that the castle was taken back later (with another recall) and your occupation score was higher does not negate the fact that recall skipped pass many defences, this also applies when the castle owners/"defending team" uses it. I believe though that being able to defend is just as important, and some significance should be given to it.
 
I do remember certain cases when guilds recall but do not take the fort, but the attacking guilds were not organized or large or on the same side. Cases where recall fails to be successful do not prove that it cannot be.
 

If/when it gets re-introduced, fixed from bugs that allow entire guilds to show up where they're not supposed to be and with a Global Cooldown implemented instead of an individual one to allow only a few recalls a WoE, I don't for a second believe it'll impact defense as much as said here. Honestly Recall isn't as great of a tool in RO2 as it was in RO1 so if it's too hard to deal with here, god knows how you'd deal with it there.

As an aside, I notice one of the popular suggestions involves a movement speed boost. What I find redundant about this is there's already things in place (defense stone statues) to apply better boosts to speed in Area of Effects by more than just the Guild Leader than those that are proposed to replace recall. 

 

I maintain that recall vastly decreases the effectiveness of defences because only ONE member needs to make it past the defences to get all of their guild there. I don't know how major that is really, but going back to my experience attacking a well defended fortress last woe (east fort) I know several stealthers made it past our opponent's defenses, even I did once or twice, but many people could not. If we had a recall, we would have at least made it into the fortress and started attacking the empellium within minutes (it's up for grabs whether or not we would have taken the fort, but certainly recall would have made it possible to ignore all the people standing more than 20m from the emp). The rare people who made it to the emp would also not have had to deal with a dozen people ganging them because there would be a dozen other targets for those dozen people to attack. I believe this would have made a huge difference, but I think it is unfair because it negates any attempt that the defending guild makes to stop their attackers before they reach the fortress. Instead I would like to see guilds attacking emps in a COORDINATED fashion, with enough skill the defences can be breached, but at least they won't be simply bypassed. I do agree though, that defence isn't entirely useless, but it seems to me that against a well timed, well coordinated recall defence can only delay, not stop the taking of a fort.


Edited by Tianciel, 29 April 2014 - 08:57 PM.

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#90 Lanie

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:58 PM

Someone suggested just giving a cd to guild lead swap which seems a little extreme but would work fine I suppose. There are not many reason to swap guild leader for anything as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong please). Also mass revive seems interesting as long as it also has a cast time insta auto revive would be silly imo, but the adding emp defense skill was the one I liked the most. The objectives in woe are just entirely too squishy atm. If it worked similar to the heal over time skill i described it would be interesting(unless you meant a perma buff).

 Technically, I gave input intended to cause people to throw in their own input, but that really didn't happen. If the Emp-target skill idea is good, then giving more ideas on how that would work would be good too (and notice I even talked about how the level could affect things such as cooldown, intensity of effect, and even duration technically). The Auto Revive idea wasn't an instant revive (though I guess that works too in its own way), but more of a pre-applied buff that allows people to revive spinel style once for free if used in the next x-minutes/seconds, with some degree of cooldown, and is a mass-target effect for the guild.
 

Just came to realization , they should fix the kafra save points might help alot I guess

Kafra save tokens aren't broken. A guild leader can use them at any time, but only the guild leader. The issue with them though is that their HP is still flat, so they die instantly. This is the biggest reason why they haven't gotten any use.
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#91 Narcoplepsy

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 02:06 AM

when urgent recall disappeared:

 

- People who are not used to getting recalled slacked a lot while those who got used to without it found a way *cough* LEGIT way to use it as an advantage.

- Political drama queens in forums started to post up why why why why.... :sob: :sob: :sob:

- On the other news, 90% of the people doing woe are socializing pretty well with everyone. thus, the result of coordinating with each other to gain fortresses and castle was successful, SHARING them to each deserving guild and not hogging the rest of it made them realize how important an ALLY system would be.

 

If you reply on my post, here is my answer:

1604852_1587597944799288_631693045978618

 

http://youtu.be/3O1_3zBUKM8


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#92 Greven79

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 02:24 AM

4º Hire new developers. *Problem fixed*

 

Oh man, you made me laugh so hard that I couldn't keep my breath up..... so you really made my day!

 

 

 

Make Emperium become immune to all skill attacks, and it can only be damaged by normal attack like RO1. Problem solved -_-!!! 

 

So you think it's fair for a sorcerer to get to melee range and do an auto attack?

 

 

Then i dont get why you're that scared of RC not going away lol

 

I believe that Urgent Recall is badly designed. I remember cool things like "wait in the water until the recall resets". I remember other strategies like "we don't use recall until the opposing guild uses it". I also remember how difficult it was/is to select the Empellium after a recall or that some guys were hiding themself IN it.

 

Of course, recalls don't guarantee a sure victory, but it makes mindless blob fights more likely.
 

So let's assume the devs fix it. That means no abuse, no leader swap, automatic recall cancel on changing maps etc..., just a skill that can be used only 3 times during WoE. It would surely have a lower impact, but it's IMO still a bad design. F.e. it forces you to choose an invisible character as a guild leader.... just to mention that inbuild stupidness that's mostly ignored. It would still be used to bypass defenses and to increase the CHANCES to take a fortress or castle.(not to mention the coordinated swap of the castle leadership right after an allied guild took a fortress)

 

So why would someone stick to that even if it's fixed? If it's insignificant, we don't need it. If it's effectively used to bypass the defenses, it reduces PvP. If it's used to do a last-second take-over on a fortress, it's still an abusal. So no matter how I turn it, I can't see any reason to have Urgent Recall.

 

Edit: And of course, it's not the only issue of WoE. Allied guilds might still swap castle ownership, mortars are still vastly superior siege weapons and damage-vs-defense ratio, DoTs or stun/knockdown abilities of certain classes are still broken. But I honestly don't get it, why you wouldn't want to keep Urgent Recall deactivated.


Edited by Greven79, 30 April 2014 - 04:13 AM.

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#93 TifaValentine

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:16 AM

Aww, I thought my input was at least pretty helpful... I worked hard to come up with a handful of helpful suggestions...

 

No no, I liked yours too. In fact I usually like your posts for providing really useful feedback and suggestions, not just in this thread. Thats something I really value.

 

Biggest issue with the speed boost from the Defense Statue is that using the statue revokes any Wind Pots, as well as prevents using any. But I still agree that we have enough speed on the map that we don't need suddenly more speed. Haven't seen any insight towards other directions though, such as an Emp Defense buff or even reuse of "Auto Revive" to replace Recall. Being able to mass revive your entire guild should be at least comparable to people who like revive while work for those who want something else. I agree, it's not solidly awesome, but... I tired.

I also worked hard to come up with some of the best solutions to make sure recall would work well too. Changing cooldown to a guild-wide debuff should actually work. It could even work if recall is limited to being only able to recall in locations under certain conditions, which then prevents gate abuse or other weird location recalls. I thought I had that one... But really hardly any support for it at all...

 

Reason I dont like much the idea of replacing Recall with a global/guild movement boost is because there's already means to be fast (wind pots which can be easily obtained, def stone, class speed buffs, wind 20%, ymir, etc.). Plus, there's no point in boosting speed when there's a lot of people having severe lag/fps issues and getting blocked by invisible terrain obstacles... speed won't really help with that unless the whole WoE map were flat terrain. I much prefer other more useful replacements for it. If I didn't mention any Emp defense buff is simply because I've already pointed out that all WoE building/objects need to be adjusted to be on par of new gear/skills; they're being oneshotted or down'd so easily and fast, same for the npcs. Players have been granted new stats, extra skill points, new stronger gear, runes, honing, refinement... We shouldn't be destroying gates and emps so fast as we do now. This leads to Castle Emp being broken down too fast, the whole global porting out happens, and that's why most people want recall to stay: this castle swapping and porting out and having to restart from the bottom so fast is..frustrating. Especially for smaller guilds who were trying to just capture a single fort in middle of all the chaos. Auto-revive is a nice idea, however between the whole spinneling, ressing, and the porting-out happening so fast... I can't see how it would really be so useful, the guild leader casting the skill would become nº1 target of entire enemy teams just so he can't ress his/her fallen guildies.

 

Main suggestions (aside from the FIX THE OTHER ISSUES PLEASE!) would be:

+ Adjust Emps and buildings hp/defense to scale to a Post-AoV era. They're currently still designed for when players didn't have many of the new features and extra-sauciness we have now.

+ Cooldown on Guild Leader changing. Will avoid not just recall but any of its replacements to be abused.

+ No global teleporting when Emp has been taken. It may sound harsh and will make Emp-conquering harder but... it will prevent the whole emp ownership swapping to be abused to kick enemies out (too frustrating). Upon Castle Emp being conquered, a short temporary "invincible" buff could be put in place, so that it doesn't get attacked back too soon, and defenders can build some defense around it. Those who were already inside the Emp room will be kicked out of Castle once ownership changed; anyone else in the map remains where they are, and the Emp attackers simply get ported out of Castle, NOT out of the whole map. New attackers have to make their way up to Emp room again.

+ Emergency Recall:

   - If its to be replaced, then give us something like a temporary huge guild defense buff, building/emp temporary huge defense buff (if you know LoL, there's similar buffs in there for turrets/buildings), temporary immunity to cc (stuns, slows, snare, freeze, maybe DoTs too, etc), temporary Dragon buff (so yummy!), mass guild full heal (similar to Soraka's "Wish" ult in LoL). All of these with a decently long cooldown, of course. No spamming it.

   - If its to be kept, then give it a long global cooldown, and make it useable on certain places, plus (what someone suggested before) make it so that it teleports everyone regardless of what theyre doing; no "yes-no" window popping up.

 

I see plenty of other awesome suggestions in here for replacing recall. And I wouldn't really mind having recall replaced for one of them if it benefits people in general and contributes to a challenging AND fun AND fair WoE.

I also see good, valid points from each side. The main problem is... that we do need other things to be solved first. Simply disabling recall, and/or replacing it for something else, won't entirely fix many other bugs and issues we have atm. They've been named in here. "recall abuse" alone is barely one of the maaaaany long-standing problems WoE has. 

Really, I don't care winning or losing a castle or fort, as long as we all get to play fair and have fun in the process (is it just me that thinks this way?).


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#94 Baddiez

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:36 AM

No no, I liked yours too. In fact I usually like your posts for providing really useful feedback and suggestions, not just in this thread. Thats something I really value.

 

 

Reason I dont like much the idea of replacing Recall with a global/guild movement boost is because there's already means to be fast (wind pots which can be easily obtained, def stone, class speed buffs, wind 20%, ymir, etc.). Plus, there's no point in boosting speed when there's a lot of people having severe lag/fps issues and getting blocked by invisible terrain obstacles... speed won't really help with that unless the whole WoE map were flat terrain. I much prefer other more useful replacements for it. If I didn't mention any Emp defense buff is simply because I've already pointed out that all WoE building/objects need to be adjusted to be on par of new gear/skills; they're being oneshotted or down'd so easily and fast, same for the npcs. Players have been granted new stats, extra skill points, new stronger gear, runes, honing, refinement... We shouldn't be destroying gates and emps so fast as we do now. This leads to Castle Emp being broken down too fast, the whole global porting out happens, and that's why most people want recall to stay: this castle swapping and porting out and having to restart from the bottom so fast is..frustrating. Especially for smaller guilds who were trying to just capture a single fort in middle of all the chaos. Auto-revive is a nice idea, however between the whole spinneling, ressing, and the porting-out happening so fast... I can't see how it would really be so useful, the guild leader casting the skill would become nº1 target of entire enemy teams just so he can't ress his/her fallen guildies.

 

Main suggestions (aside from the FIX THE OTHER ISSUES PLEASE!) would be:

+ Adjust Emps and buildings hp/defense to scale to a Post-AoV era. They're currently still designed for when players didn't have many of the new features and extra-sauciness we have now.

+ Cooldown on Guild Leader changing. Will avoid not just recall but any of its replacements to be abused.

+ No global teleporting when Emp has been taken. It may sound harsh and will make Emp-conquering harder but... it will prevent the whole emp ownership swapping to be abused to kick enemies out (too frustrating). Upon Castle Emp being conquered, a short temporary "invincible" buff could be put in place, so that it doesn't get attacked back too soon, and defenders can build some defense around it. Those who were already inside the Emp room will be kicked out of Castle once ownership changed; anyone else in the map remains where they are, and the Emp attackers simply get ported out of Castle, NOT out of the whole map. New attackers have to make their way up to Emp room again.

+ Emergency Recall:

   - If its to be replaced, then give us something like a temporary huge guild defense buff, building/emp temporary huge defense buff (if you know LoL, there's similar buffs in there for turrets/buildings), temporary immunity to cc (stuns, slows, snare, freeze, maybe DoTs too, etc), temporary Dragon buff (so yummy!), mass guild full heal (similar to Soraka's "Wish" ult in LoL). All of these with a decently long cooldown, of course. No spamming it.

   - If its to be kept, then give it a long global cooldown, and make it useable on certain places, plus (what someone suggested before) make it so that it teleports everyone regardless of what theyre doing; no "yes-no" window popping up.

 

I see plenty of other awesome suggestions in here for replacing recall. And I wouldn't really mind having recall replaced for one of them if it benefits people in general and contributes to a challenging AND fun AND fair WoE.

I also see good, valid points from each side. The main problem is... that we do need other things to be solved first. Simply disabling recall, and/or replacing it for something else, won't entirely fix many other bugs and issues we have atm. They've been named in here. "recall abuse" alone is barely one of the maaaaany long-standing problems WoE has. 

Really, I don't care winning or losing a castle or fort, as long as we all get to play fair and have fun in the process (is it just me that thinks this way?).

 

Will the castle gate still re spawn when the emp is swapped or will it just port people out of the emp room and refill the hp? Regardless I think this suggestion could easily be abused by merely having two allies one stays outside the castle while the other takes the castle, when it re spawns the defending guild runs outside and attacking guild comes in. This would make castle swapping easier than it already is.


Edited by Baddiez, 30 April 2014 - 09:38 AM.

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#95 Lanie

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:07 AM

The castle reset system is something which could be disputed, but at the very least there are some key points she made which I think people will agree are not in dispute:

*Fixing the level 50 stats of everything, and upgrade things for Master Levels. Atm, things should be 70, not 50, and soon we're going to need such defenses to be even higher than just 70.
*Technically, if any skills is set to be limited because it can only be used by the guild leader, then it needs to somehow be enforced to being cast once regardless of leadership. There is several ways to do this, from restricting leadership transfers in any of several ways, to changing the cooldown to a guild-wide debuff like guardian (and possibly even other ideas). Regardless of which of these are best, better restrictions are needed than we have now.
*The third one is the most obvious to the point it's really not been spoken in this topic, cause it's spoken everywhere else. Basically, fixing the balance of PvP combat itself (such as the current ongoing yet very obviously incomplete class balancing).

There are visibly more than a few people even basing their decision on the inclusion or exclusion of recall (even exactly what is preferred in a replacement skill) on the basis of if the above list is addressed or not. This needs to stop being the case, the assumption should be that all of the above three points are addressed and that such assumption be not itself incorrect.

Addressing how to expand an advance northward might be something else for dispute as well (be it if the current system of kicking people of the map is good, or if the battle should remain uninterrupted), but similarly should be addressed with the above assumption and correction. Even I've been working with Njoror to plot out ways to address the shutout factor, but this is honestly another topic (one that someone is welcomed to make in our WoE section too if so they wish).
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#96 TifaValentine

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:33 AM

Will the castle gate still re spawn when the emp is swapped or will it just port people out of the emp room and refill the hp? Regardless I think this suggestion could easily be abused by merely having two allies one stays outside the castle while the other takes the castle, when it re spawns the defending guild runs outside and attacking guild comes in. This would make castle swapping easier than it already is.

 

I was simply giving an idea, which -if its truly considered by devs- would obviously need to be polished. Good point, tho, about it possibly being abused too (it's so sad to base most of our ideas on "might be abused" =/...) Ideally all buildings would respawn upon emp being conquered... But then again, this was just an idea since many people dislike the whole global porting out after emp has been destroyed. If you get better ideas to solve this, then by all means post them. Nothing is really set on stone yet. 


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#97 Baddiez

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:38 AM

I was simply giving an idea, which -if its truly considered by devs- would obviously need to be polished. Good point, tho, about it possibly being abused too (it's so sad to base most of our ideas on "might be abused" =/...) Ideally all buildings would respawn upon emp being conquered... But then again, this was just an idea since many people dislike the whole global porting out after emp has been destroyed. If you get better ideas to solve this, then by all means post them. Nothing is really set on stone yet. 

 

Yeah. I just instantly thought of that once I read your post, and I figured if I did then some else probably would have also thought the same( Or I'm just a horrible human being that looks for easy ways to win :D). Honestly as much as getting ported out sucks I think it wouldn't be such a big deal if the emps/objectives had more hp and defense. Then it would actually take time to take the objectives allowing guilds to move around and prevent swapping/steal objectives.


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#98 Lanie

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:48 AM

Yes, that sorta does go back to my first point on my list (upgrading for Master Levels). There is always also the idea of figuring out a way to push north easier. I'm pretty sure that actually making the blue bases useful somehow might be a good edge on achieving this, possibly even having certain bases with flight kafras for their occupant which allows their guild to fly to a northern location with ease. BoA is rather fast to reach, so this could enforce a chain of approach.

Another idea is to stagger defenses so that it's easier to take things the more south you are. This means that BoA and South Base are the easiest things to take, the central bases are next in line, and the main emp is by far the hardest. The gates could also work the same way, with the central gate having much less hp than the northern gates. This however also does not work without their stats being adjusted for Master Level content.
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#99 TifaValentine

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 11:01 AM

Yeah. I just instantly thought of that once I read your post, and I figured if I did then some else probably would have also thought the same( Or I'm just a horrible human being that looks for easy ways to win :D). Honestly as much as getting ported out sucks I think it wouldn't be such a big deal if the emps/objectives had more hp and defense. Then it would actually take time to take the objectives allowing guilds to move around and prevent swapping/steal objectives.

 

No, its a good point, and good thing to see what other people thinks or see that I may have missed. Looking for flaws on ideas and pointing them out helps to polish them~

 

But yeah, we can see at least both you, Lanie and I agree with the whole improving emp/objects having more hp and defense so they don't get so easily destroyed even by single people. It's normal in pvp that some people will be much much stronger than others, but the fun and challenge of it is gone if its way too easy to destroy things and, as I said before, zerg-rush to conquer castle emp [*insert omnomnom sound here*]. 


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#100 flukeSG2

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Posted 30 April 2014 - 10:50 PM

I like what baddiez said earlier about no dots on the map.  What if the "new" Guild Skill was to show the placements of the enemies on the map for a set amount of time?  Man could you think of the fun we'd have if we didn't see where we were all going?!  That would be insane!

 

Side note:  I wish we could use siege weapons outside of woe, a lot of people aren't familiar with how they work and their advantages.  It would be nice to be able to use them on the WoE map any time so we can practice with them.


Edited by flukeSG2, 30 April 2014 - 10:52 PM.

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