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Upcoming Skill Changes(Pt. 4); Shaman, Forsaker, and Mystic


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#76 Jabrody

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 12:04 PM

(1) Jabrody 1st of all stay on topic..behind every of my comments your comparing things with defiler.Is this a defiler discussion? you think you can prove your point by making a wall of text? if you want to make your point,keep it small and to the points,coz it gets annoying to read lenghty texts.

(2) Your points arent proving anything.And FYI evasion mostly works on pve,unless we change to shield which would be totally stupid.

(3) As Kim said,you dont want your precious class to be balanced. since the last 4 years i havent seen any such nerf which would totally change the class gameplay style.So i think it is time for you to experience what other class has been experiencing for the past years,

(4) Plus i dont think you should say mystics dont need change since iv never seen jabrody name in foc or tb.(IDK if you play as a differnt name,if you do please specify who you are in your signature)


1. I never went off topic. Not my problem if you can't comprehend what I wrote perfectly clear. I specifically explained the situation and for the 3rd time explaining this, I was trying to help YOU relate to mystics since you play a defiler, you can't possibly understand all the logistics of a mystic just like I can't possibly understand all the inner-workings of a defiler since it isn't my main toon. I do however play one though and I find it mildly tricky in pve and absolutely overpowered in STB, but that's for another time as you so eloquently stated. I have no problem with defilers as is. Are they comparable? Yes they are, because you MUST factor in all the other caster classes, and to some extent all of the classes, to get a general idea of where their strengths and weaknesses are to help determine if any proportion is out of whack before you go and make any hasty decisions (EX. wl's OC nerf was a hasty decision). Defiler focuses on damage and crowd control just like forsaker and tempest, Mystic focuses on damage and heals to help the party, generally they are used as a support class and are perfect for pve, since mystics don't have proper crowd control they are not ideal in pvp combat situations, although that doesn't stop most from trying and dying, and many +30 toons are successful without crowd control, the fact still remains that they don't have the option to use any even if they wanted to. If you don't like long posts then don't join the discussion. No one forced you to add your input, It's your problem if you can't handle reading my detailed replies with critical thinking skills.

2. For the 2nd time, I give as much examples/data as I can to help back up my arguments, whether you think it helps or not is hearsay and that will always be just your opinion. So, you're saying evasion is useless in pvp? I beg to differ, in fact my domi is built around evasion and my received attack miss-rate in pvp is relatively high, which I attribute to my decent amount  of evasion.

3. You call nerfing heals a balance? You offer no arguments or examples with data, you literally are adding absolutely nothing to the convo by saying this. I can only assume you feel this way because some mystic beat you a couple times and the only reason you think they were capable of this was because they had "amazeballs heals", surely it wasn't because they had OP gear. Go back and read my wall of text, since you didn't bother to do it the first time and you'll see my argument explaining this. Oh, and the reason they haven't been messed with for so long is because they are extremely well balanced for what they do, great in pve, easy to kill in pvp once debuffed. People also don't usually piss and moan about mystic heals because Healing Totem and Healing Fairy help the party, also because these skills cannot debuff your opponent. Do you really think nerfing a class "just because" without any particular reason is a good idea? You should consider working for the old devs if you do, they would love you.

4. Oh, I still play TB/FOC now and again on Jabrody. However, I currently play mostly with my elem and SR. I typically play a match every other day. I have never been a hardcore pvper, other than SVS. Whenever that returns I will play every chance I get, just like I did for 5+ years.

 

@jabrody
 
a little question. you have ever played a other class the shamys wihtout +30 gear? i play atm a mystic and a wl with low gear. and both of them are crap. bud the mystic is way easyer to play becouse he have very nice heals. or my defi. i startet wit 85foc set when i beginn my regear. i wasnt able to kill a mob on nightmare map with same lvl. ofc shamys have not really crowdcontroll. bud they have a nice def/heal totems, a good amoubt of hp and good heals. this class is ok becouse they have nice heals. defi have Terms of Service yes. bud only one heal witch can miss and is crap in 1/1. if you now give shamys stuns or so. good night lol.
 
the prob in this game is the big diffrent between +0 and +30. as non wp player is close to impossible to doo something. as +30 cs whore this game is way too easy.

 

Yes, I also occasionally play a lvl 69 mystic with +10 gears, not my cup of tea but yea at times it can hold it's own in pvp, just not against any +30 toons. Yea defiler's VT is annoying with it's hit or miss, but when it does work it can be the most powerful heal in the game, when it misses you die. Oh I absolutely agree with your entire post, mystics strengths are it's heals and ground aoes, it truly is a pve player's dream and they should not be given a better stun.
 
I also couldn't agree more that the cash-ho model need works. The easiest idea that I would actually suggest would be making the new lvl 90 armors way more powerful than all the existing gear, without the ability to use the guaranteed +100% amplios/insurance and ridiculous forge events. My theory is that if the new armor stats are jacked up high enough that this new system would slowly flush out the old failed system that requires high % forge events. And the differences between free and paid players wouldn't be so contrasting. With this new system a free player could make +12 gear which would be equivalent to +20 with the current sets, and a paying player could make +20 gears which would be the equivalent to the current +30 gears. Anything beyond +20 would be based entirely on luck as you would have a high chance of breaking your gear since you can't use amplios/insurance. If developed properly, this new system would be Immediately favorable to free players as a boost.
 


Edited by Jabrody, 03 June 2014 - 12:16 PM.

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#77 zombi3

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 12:54 PM

Off Topic:
lol, i said it in the first "Upcoming Skill Changes" no one wants they're classes nerfed, everyone who plays the class will argue they're underpowered, and everyone who doesnt will claim it's overpowered(I really cant wait for assassins & Druids  discussion, the 2 biggest pvp classes, hear all the +30's crying so they dont get nerfed, and every other class will beg for nerfs.) anyways, instead of asking for nerfs on everything(which is pretty narrow minded, (the topic is called "Skill Changes" Implying that it can be anything including making skills better for ALL classes.) Try coming up with idea's for new skills, and improving existing useless ones, and making each class more unique, not just for Mystic class but all classes, this whole topic has been over mystics and barely any mention of forsaker skills, which i think is pretty underpowered even at +30 without it's fear totem out it's one of the easiest classes to kill, so instead of saying "this class needs nerfing" try coming up with positive suggestions and then, do the same for your class. not all classes need a whole lot of work, mystics are one of those classes, however some classes need major changes, I.E Elem & Shadow Runner & Hunter.  anyways back on topic.

The Forsaker skill tree is a bit barren, and as i mentioned above, they are easy to kill, I think it could use a new totem skill perhaps with Curse Property Damage xD lol but serious give this class more skills, and possibly another AoE or totem?


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#78 Unbound

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 07:57 PM

 "Skill Changes"

 


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#79 zombi3

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 10:48 PM

By the way i was only kidding bout curse totem( in case anyone took it seriously) don't do that, but maybe add a new totem, opposite of protection totem, maybe an attack bonus to it, for anyone in range attack & fire/ property damage up? or maybe give them a skill like hush, except reversed, instead of silencing magic attacks the skill would rather prevent physical skills, with a short duration maybe starting at 3 seconds, and gaining 1 second per 2 levels, or per 1 level and the skill caps at level 5. I've often wondered why they didn't have a "disable" skill in game they  have hush, it wouldnt take too large of a change to make such a skill, and to be honest i think it should be more a tempest skill, but that class thread is now closed. 


Edited by zombi3, 03 June 2014 - 10:52 PM.

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#80 likha

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 05:05 AM

it seems like u guys are confusing skill balance with mall balance ... comparing 2 players of the same level with same level equipment is the right thing to do ... not compare a +30 mallwhored char to a +0 noob player trying to make a kill by standing inside a wall of fire and failing... or some noob attacking 5 mystics. 

and it is not about PB ... which is -_- up altogether... PB should be banned in PVP... i have never seen anywhere a char that is immune to stun, slow, sleep, fear, can bypass Defense and resist and deal 10+k damage . that is just stupid. (btw it is the only reason bartuks get so many kills in PVP since their PB is OP)

 

PVE mystics are the easy way to go .... easy to level good at farming

1 V 1 Mystics sucks ass ...  against any other class mystics will loose the battle ... even against a radiant ... which is supposed to be a healer not a fighter.

 

the bottom line is ... if u want to balance the game ... skills are the last thing  u need to look at...  

 


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#81 Skid

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 05:41 AM

...
the bottom line is ... if u want to balance the game ... skills are the last thing  u need to look at...

tumblr_mamsuiV6U21rvdbdz.gif


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#82 zombi3

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 07:09 AM

umm, ok as you said, comparing equal geared players, how many elem's do you see beating ANY other class in this game, i dont think i've ever seen an elementalist kill anything, I've actually watched full +30 ones die to weaker geared people of other classes, same for hunters, as well as forsakers, and before you say these are pve toons, elementalist and hunters both have stealth detection plz tell me what monster your fighting that stealth's and tell me how fun these classes are in PvE when you can only hit a single enemy for mediocre damage. yes these discussions will not solve the fact that you gain 200% defense & 40% of your cad/scad or 20% critical chance(which the last 2 dont even make sense as armor is supposed to be defensive pieces not offensive, cad/scad shoulnt be gained from reinforcement.), from plus 0 - 30, and it wont change the reinforcement system which is where the real trouble lies, but maybe it can make some of the obsolete classes more desirable to play.


Edited by zombi3, 04 June 2014 - 07:13 AM.

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#83 Unbound

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 08:41 AM

Yes, skills is the last thing we need to look at in a thread about skills changes...

 

 

 

You know there's free players who legit played the game to +30, right ? Farmed their gears and xeons, sold items for malls and items, and over time got them-self up. The reinforcement model needs change I agree, but it seems many QQing about gear imbalance want everything easy-squeezy, they lazy, want Gravity to magically give free +100% forge because you QQ hard enough that everything is too difficult for you and that the world is not fair,  the answer is no. Acting like you're counting your pennies... did you know some people spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on consoles and sh!t games like Candy Crush, if they want to spend it here, bless them.  Remember, Gravity runs a game and a business, you will have to make both sides strong to have success,  Again I agree the system is not perfect, and +30 should be achievable without cash ! but of course very difficult. Mall should not give more power, it should only give fast/easy access. Every item in the mall should be available as reward from PvP ,Crafting,  daily quests, or collection reward. I think make +99 reinforce with 24 enchant slots !!! You either work for it or pay for it, which in the end is the same thing.

 

 

On topic ~  I still think one of the biggest problems with every skill in this game is durations and cooldown. Everything lasts way too long, this is why there is no combat dynamic There are too many situations like.... If a WL rush + Roots you, game over. Sin > Scud, game over. Defi Terms of Service + Shadow Bind, game over, Zerk combo, game over, Resist Build Domi, game over. Druid stun lock, game over. Shammy with totems down +  blasting you, game over.  Of these ,  Druid takes the medal, yes they are overpowered, and as much as I dislike elfs, what I give credit to is the variety of skill combos...   skill combat should be more of that style; small  + controlled combos rather than easy skills with overpowering durations. AoE's and negative effects should have much shorter durations, but also appropriate cool-downs.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Unbound, 04 June 2014 - 08:46 AM.

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#84 zombi3

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 09:14 AM

I agree with you Unbound, all classes should be compared with druid & sin(without scud). more skill emphasis should be put into the games PvP side, as well as strategy to the PvE side, I.E. Assassin vs Assassin duel's can almost always go either way(if they dont use Brutal Scud/Blinding Attack) and it's the same for druids, these classes can win or lose, depending on how they play and not just how they're gear is, this is how all classes should be, but just my opinion. And PvE raids should be more interesting, bosses should have more Unique AI's or even set patterns to follow. Making it so you dont just stand in one place attacking/healing, also some bosses include element's I.E Biskra is water monster, make him weaker to electricity, also the same with players. Bartuks = Fire based skills/attacks, give them boosted fire resist & less water resist,  same to all races. Turan = Light, Kruxena = Curse, Xenoa = Everything? lol bit off topic but you get my point.


Edited by zombi3, 04 June 2014 - 09:22 AM.

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#85 likha

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 09:44 AM

actually u got me all wrong... 

i am not against discussing skills in a skill thread... i am saying the thread altogether is useless... the game needs balance in many more aspects , and skills is the least urgent one.

no one should be able to cap def and resist... no one should be able in PB mode to kill 50 players, during 5 bars, 1 hitting everything with 10k+ damage, and be immune to all kind of debuffs and bypass resist and defense....

and i do have +30 items which i paid for ... i don' want gravity to make everything easy... i want the difference to be smaller between paying players (like me) and the others non paying players. and the game should be more challenging in a way that every race will be weak against another.... for exemple if a krux hits a bartuk he takes 50% more damage , but if he hits a turans he deals 50% less damage... it is just an exemple it is not necessary this way.

 

anyway u guys probably know the game better than me, hope ur ideas get heard.


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#86 ShazamO

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:02 AM

Thank you guys for your feedback!

 

Please continue with it if needed but the next discussion is up for Rogues, Shadow Runners, and Assassins


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#87 Spud

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 10:21 AM

...
and i do have +30 items which i paid for ...

anyway u guys probably know the game better than me...


This is another (off-topic) problem in the game I feel. No direct offense to you since im unsure how long youve been playing, but lately I've seen a bunch of new players that are able to hit cap in a week because of the generous amounts of exp events they give (I'm not against them, I appreciate and take advantage when I can) but for veterans such as myself can get/are stuck at 70-73 or 80-84 because there werent as many exp events in the past.

But here comes all of these new guys blasting into the end game, and either asking for gear or whoring out to get +30 gear. So now we have a bunch of +30 players who have barely played a month running around who dont know how to play their class.

(This last part is a cry for both new players and us veterans)

Last I checked, video games are entertainment meant to be enjoyed, not to be blasted through and not understand the mechanics. Nothing totally against mallwhores (im slowly turning into one myself with a stable job now) but im just tired of players running around with great gear that they got by either selling malls or somehow got from other players, then proceeding to be hot -_- because of said great gear or their guild status (really? That shouldnt even be a thing, no one ( least i dont) really cares what guild you're in as long as the guild doesnt have a bad rep, you dont need to be giving them a bad rep) yet these "hot -_-" players turn around and start asking things like "durr whats a raid?" Or "how do I use this skill?" Figure it out on your own, and you had 90 levels to do so. End game players im sure (such as myself) are glad to help, but please, let's hold back on spoon feeding them.
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#88 likha

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 04:36 AM

This is another (off-topic) problem in the game I feel. No direct offense to you since im unsure how long youve been playing,

 

:) 

 

i am probably one of the oldest players still playing this game ... i played since open beta ... and i only have 16 chars  most are above lvl 80 few lvl 90.

i played all classes ... not on regular basis anymore ... 

the issue is ... i know how the game was .... and how it turned to be ... and it was way better before ... 

when i say before means before they made resist easy to cap, defense easy to cap, game completely relying on CAD and SCAD, and anyone that wants to play needs to spends tones of cash to be competitive... 


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#89 Spud

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 08:36 AM

:)

 

i am probably one of the oldest players still playing this game ... i played since open beta ... and i only have 16 chars  most are above lvl 80 few lvl 90.

i played all classes ... not on regular basis anymore ... 

the issue is ... i know how the game was .... and how it turned to be ... and it was way better before ... 

when i say before means before they made resist easy to cap, defense easy to cap, game completely relying on CAD and SCAD, and anyone that wants to play needs to spends tones of cash to be competitive... 

 

Nah I totally agree with ya bro, the old times were much better where it was more focused on your actual stats than crits and etc. If you had +10 gear you were considered at least top 25% of players; now you're looking at +10 gear being average unless you know what you're doing. Don't know if thats a mall problems or a gear problem since even with just +10/12 gear I almost have cap resist, I just don't like people taking the easy road and rubbing it in to those of us that have worked hard for years at it


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#90 BloodFireMagic

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 01:35 PM

All values for skills, enchants are absolutely OUTDATED!!!! Certain skills have totally ridiculous values ​​for today. When they were developed, not existed +30chars. Is more about just modify skills, rebalance chars, bla bla bla bla....

It´s not only " rebalance " chars, but rebalance all itens. I belive some values ​​could be redeemed by percentage, including some skills.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#91 Shay

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:02 PM

Nerf Nerf Nerf... maybe fix the tank classes instead of nerfing one of the few working classes

Mystics and Forsakers need less hp/con, they shouldn't be able to have more HP than tank class AND do insane damage.

 


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#92 ARKILIUS

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:58 AM

Hi everyone.

 

I do not intend to be mean but if I summarize your post Jabrody I obtain :

 

1) That's a lie we're not op we don't have crowd control ; we don't have any stun so abusive values of the totems in addition of two (instant ?) AoEs and a bunch of other bonuses are completely justified.

 

Simple question from my part now, since I'm a melee player, how do you call a skill that forbids you to go in that area because you know you won't be able to damage the people in it ?

It sounds a lot like "crowd control" to me. Oh and... All aoes which last more than 2 sec are crowd control because... Well, we, the peasants without heal, we try to avoid damage.

And please, spare the evasion thing, this stat is useless unless you get 50k, everyone knows it, that's not an argument.

 

2) We're not op', give us any evidence we are. And look at all these naughty defilers over there with their ugly Terms of Service.

 

That is a way to avoid the main issue. Be sure all the rage and complaints about Terms of Service will be unleashed in the adequate topic in the next few weeks. I'll even volunteer to do it if noone dares !

 

Now, a way to prove mystics are top efficient on the battlefield : take the real time kill ranking and, oh surprise, 9 mystics out of 50 ppl, so that is 1/5th. There are also 11 defis.

There are 8 classes in game (I don't count first jobs) and only 2 of them are trusting 40% of the ranking.

 

Rhetorical question now : what do you deduce from that ?

 

These two classes are the most played. Why ? Because they're super effective. End of the story. Thank you.

 

Oh and have a look at the ratio too. ~300-350 / ~100. Not bad I'd say for a weak class.

 

 

 

So, stats say mystics are op, end of the story.

 

 

 

 

And now for everyone : we're discussing PvP, and, in general, PvP means FoC or Union so don't use examples where you appear alone.

I just came out of a union on the bridges map with 5 mystics in the other team. Whatever my angle of attack was I took 10k damage before reaching my target because all you guys do is "cast aoes on my group, cast totem, move 2meters, repeat.

In the case I managed to hit someone... "Oh look, I can't do any damage because everyone is healed 2 times more than what I hit".

"Oh look that mystic alone just killed a whole team with a PB, and when he was finally alone and we took half of his HP down... Nah, mega heal. Oh and WTF double 12k AoE damage in my teeth."

See, I can tell anything with examples, but sadly it's what you see in every battle. Having a mystic in my team is the same thing as having a rad.

 

 

PS :

Beloved GM if you read that, by chance. Dramatically boosting all team heals was really cool for PvE. Dramatically boosting every single heal AND removing the only counter in PvP, aka hush was really... Yeah... I don't need to write it, do I ?

 

Have a nice evening folks, thank you for reading.

 

Will

THANK YOU VERY MUCH : totally , 100% agree here..

 

Maybe a mystic is kicked by a defi or a rad , my my they don't have control skills ( lol , cause i agree with your definition of "area control" too)

 

but what for those physic classes who dies without even letting a "scratch" on mystic cloth ?

 

i don't melt that with poor non OP free players , the so called "mallwhores" mystics would be able to genocide the whole HL area of crescent , that would be just fine to me ... BUT

 

BAN ALL THE PBs FROM ALL BATTLEFIELD , it's just bull-_- , no fun , useless battles, and after that egotic jerks pretending so proud of their hundred casualties at the cost THEY were the ONLY ONES to have , i suppose ? ( or at least hope for them) some FUN in these stupid battles...

 

MAKE THE PB forbidden in battles !!


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#93 Kazara

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 06:07 AM

MYSTICS ARE OP, NERF THEM NOW!!!!!!!!! THEY HAVE SUPPORT OF AN HEALER, DAMAGE OF A DEFILER AND HP OF A PROTECTOR!!!!

Forsakers are ok <.<


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#94 Apollonia93

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 09:38 AM

MYSTICS ARE OP, NERF THEM NOW!!!!!!!!! THEY HAVE SUPPORT OF AN HEALER, DAMAGE OF A DEFILER AND HP OF A PROTECTOR!!!!
Forsakers are ok <.<

only thing that needs fixing with mystic in my opinion is heal totems stacking and heal totems double healing
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#95 Kazuul

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 11:25 AM

MYSTICS ARE OP, NERF THEM NOW!!!!!!!!! THEY HAVE SUPPORT OF AN HEALER, DAMAGE OF A DEFILER AND HP OF A PROTECTOR!!!!

Forsakers are ok <.<

 

This is not the class, this is due to the +30 8/8. I'm a free player and I'm so far from having those damage, hp , def, and so on. In addition, mystics haven't CC skills (just one skill with 1 sec stun).

 

only thing that needs fixing with mystic in my opinion is heal totems stacking and heal totems double healing

 

Taking into consideration you are in PvE server, you shouldnt propose this. If you remove stacked healing totems when you go into hard raids such as ET or AoS, bosses Dot's won't be removed as effectively as mystics can right now, because the one that can set the totem could be hushed, stuned, feared, etc. I won't use a skill with 50 sec's cooldown if it will be a waste of time...

 

This is not the first time I see PvE effectiveness killed due to PvP balance. Furthermore, you both should think that who can counter mystic's totems is the Avenger class because of its eliminating trap (the same with defilers and forsakers). But Avengers have been nerfed to extinction so let's buff them instead of killing another class.


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#96 Apollonia93

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 11:35 AM

This is not the class, this is due to the +30 8/8. I'm a free player and I'm so far from having those damage, hp , def, and so on. In addition, mystics haven't CC skills (just one skill with 1 sec stun).

 

 

Taking into consideration you are in PvE server, you shouldnt propose this. If you remove stacked healing totems when you go into hard raids such as ET or AoS, bosses Dot's won't be removed as effectively as mystics can right now, because the one that can set the totem could be hushed, stuned, feared, etc. I won't use a skill with 50 sec's cooldown if it will be a waste of time...

 

This is not the first time I see PvE effectiveness killed due to PvP balance. Furthermore, you both should think that who can counter mystic's totems is the Avenger class because of its eliminating trap (the same with defilers and forsakers). But Avengers have been nerfed to extinction so let's buff them instead of killing another class.

i ran a +15 foc mystic at lvl 90 and farmed ST easier than i farm ST with a +30 defiler.

 

And perhaps i already thought about that when i suggested it? Perhaps i find ET and AoS raids easy and jokes? Perhaps because i do ET raids without rads?

 

Sure buff up avengers, that still doesnt help all other classes kill mystics. Have you ever tried to kill 2 mystics with 1 commie? 

 

Not saying nerf the class, im saying FIX the totems


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#97 Avaloon

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 11:26 PM

Nerf AOES !!! To many Damage per 2 sec tick


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#98 Apollonia93

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:13 AM

Nerf AOES !!! To many Damage per 2 sec tick

no

this makes pve annoying


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#99 Kazara

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  • Playing:Requiem

Posted 04 February 2015 - 12:36 PM

Seems that mystic and forsaker are the next in the skill update :P

 


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