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Class Specific Headgear Foundry Round 2


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#26 GreenIvy

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 06:25 AM

Buff Genesis Ray is meh. It's impossible to find two or more RG party together to execute this play style. Buff the nerfed reflect build is actually a good idea.

 

Although I like this series of discussion, don't you think it's a little too rush to open 3 new discussion when the previous ones aren't even appropriately tested on sakray?


Edited by GreenIvy, 25 July 2014 - 06:27 AM.

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#27 Riakuta

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 06:29 AM

My suggestion.

Very Normal Hat [1]
 
Matk +10%, Atk +10%
For every level of Sword Mastery, increase damage with Fatal Menace (FM) by 3%
For every level of Double Strafe, increase damage with Triangle Shot (TS) by 5%
 
If upgraded to +7 or higher, Increases ATK by 2 per AGI 5, Increases MATK by 2 per INT 5.
If upgraded to +9 or higher, Reduces Cast Time of Triangle Shot by 1 second.

Edited by Riakuta, 25 July 2014 - 06:29 AM.

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#28 Kadelia

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:12 AM

I wanna point out triangle shot requires level 7 double strafe and 10 vulture, so its near pointless to reward by skill level on those.

Perhaps
if double strafe mastered, triangle shot damage +30%.

Edited by Jaye, 25 July 2014 - 08:17 AM.

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#29 Ramen

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:55 AM

Shadow chaser has soooo much variety though. Why can't you count reproduce+intimidate as a factor in any build, including alternative ones? Chasers aren't like most classes, hard lined into 1 aoe skill, with a desperate need for variety. Reproduce is in itself variety. You can copy ado and M.E. and pretend you're a demon slayer, or copy stoem gust and crimson rock to play magey, or copy bow skills like arrow storm and severe rainstorm (and couple with your own triangle shot) to play archery. Or even go clashing spiral and ignition break to level like a rune knight, etc. Why would there be a build without intimidate or reproduce (at least even as heal skill, also a powerful versatile backup skill)  if for any reason other than to handicap yourself (I wanna be different!) in which case, why are you buffing a handicap, that's backwards?

 

Just trying to make sense of the rationale of buffing the skill thats meant to tank a mob and move you out of harm's way to be able to kill iin place of a copied skill.
 

 

I understand completely what you're saying.  Trust me I do.  I was only speaking hypothetically that if for whatever crazy reason someone decided to not get intimidate or reproduce, that person would be more or less screwed for leveling because other than copying other classes' skills, Rogue tree has nothing to level with other than Sightless Mind (every other skill a SC gets is inferior to the damage output in a mob and spammability of Sightless Mind).

 

Reproduce is already very strong.  Heck, it's even been nerfed a number of times by kRO (directly and indirectly) because it was seen as too strong.  As I've said before, the only thing really lacking is in the magic department due to a SC's lack of good MATK weapons, and that is going to be less of an issue with an update we should be getting very soon.

 

 

 

The original proposed effect for Shadow Chasers was fine. I don't agree with kro saying the MATK is too high because the shadow spell damage is still pitiful... especially compared to other classes in pvm. Adding even further than that, the SP cost for casting spells manually is even more ludicrous. And 193 ASPD isn't even easily obtainable without sacrificing even more M.ATK for aspd specific gears. KRO continue their hate for giving SC any fun gear to use.
 
Shadow Chaser is definitely the hardest build to suggestion for because of the nature of SC and copying abilities.. there are A LOT of builds.  It's impossible to please everyone and very easy to get over complicated with the hat. I definitely think the hat should be stat specific, but if that is too much work then going with close to the original effect of the hat is fine. Maybe shadow chasers could get a variation of hats in colors. Purple Normal Hat could be for Spell Chasers, Blue for Triangle Shot, Red for Strength builds... if that route wanted to be taken. 
 
The staggering consensus in the original proposal thread was to boost Shadow Spell, with some hoping for Triangle Shot boosts as well. The original and the revised version of the hat both aim to boost Shadow Spell builds and I think its long overdue.  I'm going to focus on that build for my suggestion:
 
My proposed effect for the SC hat:
 
Very Normal Hat
 
MATK + 10%, SP +10%, ASPD +5%, 
 
If upgraded to +7 or higher, Increases MATK by 5 per every 10 Base INT and Increase ASPD by 1% per every 10 Base AGI. Reflect 5% of all Physical Melee Damage back to the enemy which inflicted it. (Reflect is a  great novelty for autocast builds.)
 
If upgraded to +9 or higher and If Base AGI = 120 or Higher, ASPD + 2. If Base INT = 120 or Higher, Additional MATK + 10%. Increase MATK by an additional 1% for each upgrade point above +9Adds a 3% chance to autocast Counter Instinct LV. 1 or highest level learned when dealing physical damage. (Counter Instinct just to spice things up.)

 

 

As I've said before, I understand the desire for more MATK.  I totally get it.  However, with the right equipment, especially now with these new temporal boots, you can deal some pretty sick damage with Shadow Spell.  Heck, my main Shadow Chaser is technically a hybrid build (not full Shadow Spell), and I don't even have all of the best equips, and I can still bring MVPs like Osiris down to 30% HP in less than 20 seconds.  I would love to buff Shadow Spell or any reproduced skill, but that's simply buffing pretty much the only leveling build SC has ever had.  I guess so many people just level SC with Arrow Storm that they don't even know what I'm talking about.

 

Also, the staggering consensus in the previous thread came mainly from people who don't main Shadow Chasers in PVM.

 

That aside, things I like about your suggestion:

  • The reflect damage is a great idea.  It would also work very well if it was Bapho-like effect that had a chance to trigger while physically attacking (like Leo Diadem).
  • Counter Instinct is an interesting idea, but I have the feeling it would interrupt auto attack in the same way that sonic blow does.  It'd be worth testing at least.

A modest MATK boost is fine, but if that's all the hat is going to do, it's a complete waste of potential.

 

Again, the main point of this hat is to buff non-traditional leveling skills, and reproduce and shadow spell is about as non-traditional as Arrow Storm for a Ranger, or Dragon's Breath for a Rune Knight.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that Inubashiri was not claiming to be an expert on Shadow Chasers or what needed to be buffed on them when she made the suggestion in her original post.  She was looking for input, and sadly, too many people who apparently don't main Shadow Chasers posted in the thread with the silly notion that Shadow Spell is an alternate leveling build that needs buffing.  It doesn't.

 


Edited by Ramen, 25 July 2014 - 10:14 AM.

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#30 Kadelia

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

So the only consensus atm is triangle shot?

What about adding incentive to feint bomb other than damage? Like, when using feint bomb, automatically cast kyrie eleison level 10 on yourslef? Or something cute like that, to make the skill more worth trying for people who haven't?
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#31 Alaska

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 11:52 AM

I've been out of the loop for some time now, but reading over the thread I can maybe offer some minor input.

( feel free to correct me if I've missed something, which is more than likely. )

DIVINE GUARD HAT[1] Royal Guard -
I agree that buffing Genesis Ray would be somewhat... pointless. It's hard to check off the requirements to actually get to use it, barring Inspiration (which wouldn't even be worth it.) so it kind of feels like buffs on it would be wasted. 


VERY NORMAL HAT[1] Shadow Chaser -

I main a PVP chaser, so again I can't be 100% on this, but SC do have a number of PVP-oriented skills that are completely useless in PVM. I think adding some use to those skills in a PVM environment would be a nice touch - especially ones like Dimensional Door/Feint Bomb. I don't really have much of an opinion on Triangle Shot, as I think as a leveling skill it's pretty lackluster considering it's only single-target, but unfortunately I realize options are scarce.

Also... fix the capitalization of the SC hat's name! It's the only one not to have every word capitalized. >:c


Edited by Alaska, 25 July 2014 - 11:54 AM.

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#32 Ramen

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:22 PM

So the only consensus atm is triangle shot?

What about adding incentive to feint bomb other than damage? Like, when using feint bomb, automatically cast kyrie eleison level 10 on yourslef? Or something cute like that, to make the skill more worth trying for people who haven't?

 

I could get behind something like this, but I don't understand why buffing the damage is such a bad thing.  Seriously, you're doing really good to get 2k damage out of a feint bomb at level 150/50 with 100 base DEX.  Pretty sure even the crappiest of other 3rd Job Skills have better damage than this, and I'm talking skills like Earth Shaker (Sura), Moon Slasher (Royal Guard), and Windmill (Sura).  Seriously, at least they do things like unhide enemies or make them sit or stun, not to mention they aren't the ending point of a skill tree like Feint Bomb is.  The only thing Feint Bomb does is deal damage and backslide.  If it gave some kind of status effect or some other debuff, I wouldn't have a problem with the amount of damage it deals, but it's pretty clear it's supposed to be a damage skill, which it fails miserably at.


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#33 Kadelia

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:27 PM

The point of feint bomb is to escape from a mob, I thought? it just needs to deal enough damage that it won't miss, I thought that was the point of the damage. Its like flip tatami where its there for the defensive thing but does a little damage to slow/hinder the enemy for a second

Edited by Jaye, 25 July 2014 - 12:29 PM.

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#34 Riakuta

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:41 PM

The point of feint bomb is to escape from a mob, I thought? it just needs to deal enough damage that it won't miss, I thought that was the point of the damage. Its like flip tatami where its there for the defensive thing but does a little damage to slow/hinder the enemy for a second

 

Nah, it can be used as an upgraded version of Sightless Mind for damage since it pushes you away from the mob. This means no chance of the mob hitting you out of hide and you dieing. (That's what happens with Sightless Mind)


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#35 Kadelia

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:48 PM

It seems to actually do kind of similar or less damage than sightless mind though which would be unusualy for a leveling/kill upgrade

Anyways, I don't see the point of trying to make it a kill skill, but if that's what you really want, how would you do it? If it is about 450% damage at 150, it'd need something like a 5x mod to be anywhere near useful. I don't think deamage +400% is going to get approved. What about seeing if burning status can be delivered with the skill?

Edited by Jaye, 25 July 2014 - 01:15 PM.

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#36 Riakuta

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 01:41 PM

It seems to actually do kind of similar or less damage than sightless mind though which would be unusualy for a leveling/kill upgrade

Anyways, I don't see the point of trying to make it a kill skill, but if that's what you really want, how would you do it? If it is about 450% damage at 150, it'd need something like a 5x mod to be anywhere near useful. I don't think deamage +400% is going to get approved. What about seeing if burning status can be delivered with the skill?

 

I thought the formula was ATK [{(DEX * 2) * (Base Level / 100)} * (Job Level / 10)]%


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#37 Kadelia

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 01:48 PM

150 dex would be 300%, times 1.5 for j50 would be 450%. I overlooked the part about * jlvl/10. So okay, 2,250%, that's about where it would be barely useful, heh. Arrow storm is like 2700% with the same job level, for reference.
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#38 Viri

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 01:51 PM

Burning status is really really bad for leveling unless they fixed the fact that you don't get exp for the % of damage done by burning(counts as the mob damaging itself)


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#39 Riakuta

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 01:52 PM

150 dex would be 300%, times 1.5 for j50 would be 450%. I overlooked the part about * jlvl/10. So okay, 2,250%, that's about where it would be barely useful, heh. Arrow storm is like 2700% with the same job level, for reference.

 

 

With the suggestion I added 2,250% * 1.3 = 2925%

 

No where close to White Wing Sets 50% Bonus, but this is just one hat.


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#40 Kadelia

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 01:56 PM

With the suggestion I added 2,250% * 1.3 = 2925%

No where close to White Wing Sets 50% Bonus, but this is just one hat.


Is the goal to make this skill superior to anything copied with reproduce?
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#41 Riakuta

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 02:14 PM

Is the goal to make this skill superior to anything copied with reproduce?

 

Not sure how it would be superior? Feint Bomb does not stack with the Ranged Bonus from Orc Archer Bow and Steel Arrows combination

 

The goal is to improve the quality of Feint Bomb for leveling.


Edited by Riakuta, 25 July 2014 - 02:15 PM.

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#42 thatfool

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 02:15 PM

I dont care about those already overpower classes. we need to buff merchanics!!!

i miss those high speed cart ram days. BRING IT BACK


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#43 Kadelia

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 02:24 PM

Not sure how it would be superior? Feint Bomb does not stack with the Ranged Bonus from Orc Archer Bow and Steel Arrows combination

The goal is to improve the quality of Feint Bomb for leveling.


Arrow storm also doesn't let you use a shield or protect you from the mob :P
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#44 GreenIvy

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 04:55 PM

I actually like buffing shadow spell. Because shadow spell can let SC use a large variety of skills and builds to make pvm fun. Faint bomb is just one single skill


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#45 Ramen

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 05:57 PM

Someone asked earlier if the goal was to make the skills stronger than anything copied or reproduced.  Truthfully, that would be ideal.  As anyone who actually plays shadow chasers should know, you're never going to be better at a skill than the class you copied it from.  In most cases you're doing good to deal half the damage with a copied skill that the original class deals.  If that's the standard for Rogue class damage, then that's pretty frickin sad.  And you know this is true because any time a Shadow Chaser has ended up being able to do better damage with or use another class's skills more effectively than the original class, a fix was put in to nerf Shadow Chasers.  Ranger Traps and Rapid Throw come to mind.  I'm sure kRO wanted SC to be more versatile than powerhouses, so in that sense I don't mind if Shadow Chaser's naturally learned skills are a little weaker when compared to other 3rd classes, but where they are right now is beyond stupid.  This simply seems like a great opportunity to fix them and provide even more versatility to the class by giving people the option to make something other than an Arrow Storm build or a Shadow Spell build.

 

That being said, I'm not sure why Arrow Storm keeps getting brought up over and over.  No one has been asking for Feint Bomb, Fatal Menace, or Triangle Shot to do the kind of damage that Arrow Storm does, and if they are, I can't see how anyone would take them seriously.  All I want is for Feint Bomb and Fatal Menace to do damage that is on par with other 3rd job skills.  Seriously, they do less damage than most 2nd job skills, and even some 1st job skills.  Arrow Shower does more damage than Feint Bomb and Fatal Menace for crying out loud.

 

I actually like buffing shadow spell. Because shadow spell can let SC use a large variety of skills and builds to make pvm fun. Faint bomb is just one single skill

 

I have no problem with having a small buff for Shadow Spell, but if you've ever leveled with Shadow Spell you'd know that the only skill you're ever going to be using is Meteor Storm (or Storm Gust if you decide to solo level in Thors like me).  I know it seems like there are a lot of options with Shadow Spell, but the only good leveling skills you can actually copy and use with Shadow Spell are Storm Gust and Meteor Storm.  Everything else ends up being sub-par, even if you have an elemental advantage.

 

Also, as I've already said many times, the only problem with Shadow Spell is the lack of MATK weapons and other MATK gear for Shadow Chasers, and that is already being fixed.  If you buff it anymore, you're going to be flirting with "broken" territory, and we definitely don't want to go there.


Edited by Ramen, 25 July 2014 - 05:58 PM.

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#46 Kadelia

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:01 PM

Then it sounds like chaser hat should do around +30% triangle, feint bomb, and maybe +10% matk, something like that?


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#47 Ramen

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:59 PM

Then it sounds like chaser hat should do around +30% triangle, feint bomb, and maybe +10% matk, something like that?

 

I certainly wouldn't mind using that as a starting point and then buffing or nerfing depending on how the skills end up performing in game with various gears and stuff.

 

The next step would be to come up with some +7 and +9 effects.  I feel like +9 addressing Invisibility would be good, though I'm not sure what can and can't be tweaked with the skill, since it was fairly ill conceived in the first place.  Sadly, the only ways that I can think of to buff it other than just completely redoing the skill altogether is the reduce the SP consumption and the cooldown.  That's probably asking too much though, and if I had to choose, I'd definitely go with what's already been suggested rather than messing with Invisibility.

 

I'm really not sure what would be good for +7 or +9.  I'm mainly concerned with getting the 3 skills I've been talking about buffed.


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#48 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:36 PM

I'm really not sure what would be good for +7 or +9.  I'm mainly concerned with getting the 3 skills I've been talking about buffed.

 

How about:

 

MATK +5%. Increases the damage of [Triangle Shot] by 30%.

 

At +7, Increases the damage of [Feint Bomb] by 20%. Further increases the damage of [Feint Bomb] by 10% per mastered Masquerade skill.

 

At +9, increases the damage of [Fatal Menace] by 50%. If the user has mastered [Fatal Menace], adds 10 HIT and reduces the SP cost of the skill by 10.  If the user has mastered [Triangle Shot], reduces the skill's cast time by 0.5 seconds and SP cost by 10. If the user has mastered [Body Painting], reduces the cast time of [Feint Bomb] by 0.5 seconds.


Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 25 July 2014 - 09:38 PM.

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#49 ShinKokuryuu

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:41 PM

Would it be too powerful if one of the refine effects is -2% skill global skill delay per refine? You know, what you can't make up with damage, you do with speed... For example, triangle shot has a 0.5 sec global delay. A +12 hat could then drop it to roughly 3 shots per sec instead, increasing dps.

Are there any skills able to abuse this?
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#50 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:50 PM

Would it be too powerful if one of the refine effects is -2% skill global skill delay per refine? You know, what you can't make up with damage, you do with speed... For example, triangle shot has a 0.5 sec global delay. A +12 hat could then drop it to roughly 3 shots per sec instead, increasing dps.

Are there any skills able to abuse this?

 

I can only imagine the Backstab and Masq spam you could do with a headgear that reduced skill delay /rice


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