159 replies to this topic

[lolmetimbers89]

Ummmmm...gee...Buffs and heals?

 

 

[iMatt]

 

 

 

why? What is the core reasons that cause a lack of 1 class to auto-win/lose a match.

1. Even if (and that is in 99% of all games no the case) all classes would have a charm (including a charm buffset) set and buff the whole team with their buffs you still miss key buffs sutch as additional damage so you have automatically a disadvantage in buffs.

2. The influence of a cleric heal is that massive that you can't stand vs a team with a decent cleric while having no cleric (your team "no cleric" focuses a champion with 25k hp+ - you deal lets say 18.000 damage in 3 seconds "poff" heavens grace - champion = full again while your team has only pots to heal the enemies focus out)

 

I fail to see that as a cause for clerics determining matches. That is after-all the topic at hand. Longer qeue times is a result* of either frustrations, lack of interest, lack of need, attempting qeues at the wrong timezones or even things like many kids going back to school and not having time to play as often. 

 

So again, why or what does a cleric bring to the table that insta-determines a win or loss. 

 

 

I don't know if the situation is the similar on draconis but on leonis you have maybe 0.5% of all classes/players actually using a charm-(+buffset) build to outbuff and improve the strength of your team - of course it is dumb and retarded because some classes like bow scouts, spear champs, knights, dealer (in every 2nd job/specialisation) are PERFECT for adding a small amount of charm and adding a small charmset - but you can't dictate people using it so yes if we ignore the fact that you can't give ALL buffs by a mix of all classes except cleric you usually end up haveing probably 4-5 buffs while the other team has at least 12+. If you can't see the difference in this then I am sorry for you - and btw buffpots with "+5" are pathetic and for sure no solution - there is no big difference between being naked and those pot buffs.
 

Edited by iMatt, 23 August 2014 - 09:03 AM.

[Feuer]

I don't know if the situation is the similar on draconis but on leonis you have maybe 0.5% of all classes/players actually using a charm-(+buffset) build to outbuff and improve the strength of your team - of course it is dumb and retarded because some classes like bow scouts, spear champs, knights, dealer (in every 2nd job/specialisation) are PERFECT for adding a small amount of charm and adding a small charmset - but you can't dictate people using it so yes if we ignore the fact that you can't give ALL buffs by a mix of all classes except cleric you usually end up haveing probably 4-5 buffs while the other team has at least 12+. If you can't see the difference in this then I am sorry for you - and btw buffpots with "+5" are pathetic and for sure no solution - there is no big difference between being naked and those pot buffs.
 

 

You seem to think I'm actually asking the question for my own sake matt, trust me, I am not. What I'm trying to do is to get other people to start a discussion where they answer themselves.

 

On draconis, we have a fairly decent CD buffset trend, so it's not that big a deal or advantage in most cases.

So the only 2 real issues you stated if i strip away the drivel, is

1: Clerics access to heals, and their potency

2: Class buffs don't cover all buffs [well duh, if you're lacking a soldier, then you're obviously not getting a str buffset are you, same thing on a cleric, you'll lack dodge + ad + mp buffs]

 

and something I'm not sure should be considered

3: Buff pots being "weak". 

A: You have seen the rep posts where something that carry's potential to fix that is posted right?

B: They're meant as a "backup" option should* you not get one. 10% is still better then 0%. 

[lolmetimbers89]

This has to do with game balance really. I highlighted what is important but tl;dr cleric is too important because they can heal/buff a whole team. This is what determines a win/loss

 

I'm not entirely sure where this is going when talking about class buffs...I don't think any sort of adjustment short of changing the whole dynamic of the cleric class will help balance CD. It will def help for PvM though. I hope the devs/representatives can come to a balanced outcome. Still, if hypothetically class buffs somehow become important and incorporated into the game, what happens when you play a CD with no cleric and only raiders/mages? You would still be missing other class buffs and have no heals. Even if you had full buffs - same situation really, you may have buffs but will still be slaughtered again and again with no cleric. I guess it will be less painful? You can fight back a bit instead of spectating crystal defender PvM by the other team from your spawn point. But that also means you just die repeatedly and give the other team honor...

 

So you can change buff values up and down but imo Cleric in CD is irreplaceable due to heals itself. And that relates the main point I want to focus on, queue balance in CD (which may or may not be affected by BCs). The queue should not be random for clerics/BCs - games are won and lost due to imbalance issues from the start. One FS or none at all is needed on each team. BC =/= FS somehow. I want to make games more balanced and fun for everyone.

 

I still think you are underestimating the power of a single FS cleric on a game at the moment. Currently, in a game where one side has no FS, a lot of people will automatically leave within the first 5min, some will continue fighting and be killed and the rest eventually enter spectator mode from spawn. This is boring and frustrating. On Leonis this is a common occurrence, people have even let the other team kill the crystal to extend the game. And in one or two games where cleric numbers were imbalanced, my team even stopped attacking the enemy cleric so the teams felt more even! So giving a side with CD orientated builds buffs will still result in them be significantly weaker than a team with a FS due to sheer healing output, this will be even more exacerbated if skill points and stat points are needed to be invested in for party buffs as offensive/defensive power will be reduced overall. I do like the idea of more focused builds though, CD/War/PvM instead of jack of all trades.
 
And realistically, if you had a team with only raiders and mages + their respective class buffs, your team could potentially be obliterated by 2 good full buffed raiders that will pick off those mages within mere seconds, the raiders wouldn't even be able to touch them due to dodge. Even two BA's will destroy them. But that is just hypothesizing and an example. Having said that, I would still bet my whole account that the team with the FS would win.
 
It will be interesting how the buff system/class dynamics will be changed over time. However, I still do not think that this will solve the problem of one sided games. For a team with no FS to remain competitive the healing system and clerics would need a huge overhaul - like lowering pot cooldowns, enabling food in CD so that players are less reliant on cleric heals, less emphasis on party heals and more emphasis on single target heals and even nerfing cleric heals again. This might make things more interesting, no longer will cleric be such a powerful class that can keep up a whole team. People might even need to bring hp food with them for PvM! It will certainly be a massive effort so I can only suggest and hope that things become more balanced.

 

 

[iMatt]

You seem to think I'm actually asking the question for my own sake matt, trust me, I am not. What I'm trying to do is to get other people to start a discussion where they answer themselves.

But you force me to read it too so bleh

On draconis, we have a fairly decent CD buffset trend, so it's not that big a deal or advantage in most cases.

Oh i disagree my CD scout buffs like 30% more aspeed and 120-150 more mspeed than max charm clerics can provide

So the only 2 real issues you stated if i strip away the drivel, is

1: Clerics access to heals, and their potency

Yea highly influencial and in my opinion unbalanced - but not my job fixing this.

2: Class buffs don't cover all buffs [well duh, if you're lacking a soldier, then you're obviously not getting a str buffset are you, same thing on a cleric, you'll lack dodge + ad + mp buffs]

This was pointing at the "classic" buffs not the stats which are of course nice to have - I have shown you how influencial the additional damage damage is.

 

and something I'm not sure should be considered

3: Buff pots being "weak". 

A: You have seen the rep posts where something that carry's potential to fix that is posted right?

Nope, probably you should remind Devs again.

B: They're meant as a "backup" option should* you not get one. 10% is still better then 0%. 

The pots are a joke. only good if both sides are unbuffed and you try to get an advantage

 

[Feuer]

@Matt

>< Sometimes communicating with you is harder then it should be.

On Draconis, most people have buff sets for use ni CD, hence, on Draconis, its not that big of a deal/problem/advantage because everyone is using them

 

and yes, you did show me a rather nice additional damage bug when stacking AP items + boosters, cause I challenge anyone in the game to get that 7k+ ap you had with any class and not using an arua. 

Edited by Feuer, 23 August 2014 - 10:08 AM.

[iMatt]

not 7k ap but 11k per skill

[Squipy]

because there is no other way to effectively restore hp in CD, clerics are important for their heals. the core reason for an auto win/loss is simply the fact that one team will undoubtedly survive longer.

a better question would be, what's wrong with clerics having a pivotal role in CD?

Introducing food into the game can lift the burden off of them slightly, but full supports are healers and they should heal because it is their job's specialty being the only non offensive class. I don't think it's right to take that away from them just because they do what they have always done.

I do nothing but heal and buff. if restorative powers were given to other classes, then we should work on giving clerics more leeway to be both attackers and supporters not one or the other. but then is the goal to make all classes the same?

[Feuer]

So it mostly comes down to the heals.

 

What if [just here me out first] cleric healing amounts were lowered, food was allowed, and healing gave more points again. This way clerics don't lose their point potential in CD, but the impact of healing wasn't as high and games wouldn't depend on them entirely. They would still make a impact, it just wouldn't be an instant loss if you didnt have one and the enemy team did. 

Would that sound fair [again, healing would give more points, so clerics wouldn't lose their point potential] 

 

And no, the goal isn't to make all classes the same, it's to make their impact on game play relative, or equal. no one class should control the entire outcome for the other 7 classes, that's just stupid and imba imo. 

Edited by Feuer, 23 August 2014 - 09:12 PM.

[IAfjiBa]

I like the idea to bring food into CD and other pvp games. This will make cleric's have a bit more air break and the food market will have action to it! I have nothing more to say then '' 1+ '' 

[joelhouse09]

Dragon summon most useless skill of cleric. i remember myself getting this summon and they call me noob. until i realize its true lol. . . hope they replace this with useful skill. Its upgrade of salamander flames its suppose HEALING dragon...

[Squipy]

what is the alternative to not having them control the outcome of a match though, making them do less of what they're supposed to do? the fact that FS clerics are built for healing hp means that they are an important part of the game.. if they are not going to control the outcome of a match anymore by having effective heals, what are they supposed to do in CD? they'll become redundant :x 

[angeltje]

dont change the healing of fs -1

[Feuer]

They're supposed to influence the match just like every other class. Giving 1 class control is intentionally throwing the classes out of balance.

[angeltje]

They're supposed to influence the match just like every other class. Giving 1 class control is intentionally throwing the classes out of balance.

 

well but why changing a job for only CD, while you got also dg and lvling and other stuff. i think that sucks..

[Squipy]

They're supposed to influence the match just like every other class. Giving 1 class control is intentionally throwing the classes out of balance.

 

But they are not like every other class xD. They're unique in their ability to solely regenerate HP and this all that they do (FS clerics anyway). 

That's why it's controversial.. If cleric heals are not an impact in CD, it defeats the purpose of having a cleric at all. 

[Feuer]

There is an impact, but it shouldn't be game breaking.

and I was moreso thinking in general ga allowing food. Not just cd. Leveling itself is no problem.

[angeltje]

I disagree big on changing clerics again.

Edited by angeltje, 24 August 2014 - 03:44 AM.

[Squipy]

not sure what is meant by game breaking. to me, the reliance on clerics is warranted. if a fs cleric does not need to be relied on for heals in CD, there is not much point for a cleric to play. unless it is the developers' intention to erase the full support cleric entirely, I don't see how they will not have a critical influence in CD without compromising the uniqueness of the class.

[Bendersmom]

I did a CD where the other side had no cleric.  I talked to my group and said I would stay at our crystal and if they needed heals to come to me there and I asked them all to remove their buffs and go fight.  I figured once the other team saw we did not have buffs everyone would fight.  But no, the other team just sat at their spawn or left.  It was a fair fight at that point but the players were so set on how they would not be able to get buffs that they did not even try.  My group went down with only self buffs and they still did not come to fight.  I still think there is a mentality issue here as well but I don't think we can change that.

 

I think adding at least one more type of food and getting the changes that Leo proposed for the artisan and/or other classes where they could also help support in healing will help some.  And if more players would get the class party buffs it would really help, but we can't force them to.  

 

I still do not think that the cleric needs to be changed and if the buffs or heals are lowered then the fs cleric needs to have some other options to add to their class to keep the class interesting to play.  People all yell that our heals are so powerful but when I am playing in fighting gear I use all of my heals and then some to keep people healed.  I understand that a team with cleric vs team without the heals can really make a difference and so can the buffs.  But why change everything based on the lack of players?  If less FS clerics are playing then should the games be changed to accommodate that? How about we focus on getting more players, getting more people to play FS cleric and helping people understand that they need class buffs.  

[IAfjiBa]

I dont agree to low the heals and buffs for the class muse/cleric. If that happend, to be cleric is gonna be harder. You will be called names becuse you dont heal enough. You will see that you aren't powerful enough becuse you can't heal all your team mates. Then maybe start another class becuse you see your self not enough powerful to be a cleric. 

 

When I play cleric in cd sometimes it happends like '' Wow, my heals arent powerful enough! '' There is NO need to change the heal or the buffs. What I want is NPC food and crafted food (not event food) allowed in Game Arena. becuse that can help Clerics and the market running more. 

 

Atleast try to make food enabled into the cd and if Cleric's get very very very low reward points then make healing gives more points or make the food less stronger inside game arena.

 

Maybe we can make a new food item that are made speciel for Game Arena (Not Pots, food)

[ChampPower]

They're supposed to influence the match just like every other class. Giving 1 class control is intentionally throwing the classes out of balance.

An what balance would it be? The more DEV Team changed the game toward your point of view. The more clerics quit the game. Do you want to kill the cleric class all together? The role of the support cleric is to support fully; in term of buff, purify, and heal. First, you changed the buff. then, you weakened the purify. Now, you want to less the heal. What is the balance in that perspective?

[Feuer]

The reason people freak on clerics is because
1: classes can't heal themselfs, food would solve that
2: you can't use puri pots and there's no other way to remove a status down

stat buffers are already stronger then clerics, however debuffers are the real bread winners, as only 1 class can puri in cd.

clerics are unique in more ways then just buffs and heals.
they can resurrect and purify. Some mages can resurrect but only a cleric can heal, full buff, purify. They're plenty unique with those attributes that they don't need to have they only healing capability in cd.

yea I get lowering heals is a scary thought, but in my mind it was only like a 5% reduction, because adding food to GA modes could cause a state where no one dies fast enough to gain time to attack the xtal. This would make it so the defending team is at an advantage. So again the reduction of imagine would have been small at first, to prevent that unfair advantage towards defending teams lasting so lo g that the attackers donr get any time to kill the xtal.

Edited by Feuer, 24 August 2014 - 05:49 AM.

[Feuer]

Oh one other idea might be less scary, what if healing wasn't touched on clerics, food allowed in cd, and the healing you receive only in cd was slightly reduced. That would keep dungeon heals the same and leveling. And with the addition of food, would prevent that stalemate where the defending team has a large advantage?

[kwayan19]

more nerfs on clerics pls

see what i did there!

 

HA!