483 replies to this topic

[Xellie]

the same could be said about any number of items God or mvp in any active woe guild in every variation of servers iro has had. noone should be punished because of their hard work

 

If other mvp cards could be stacked to increase the damage insanely without that player being in danger, you might have a point.

 

Unfortunately, fbh is one of ~3 cards that has that affect.

 

GTB is not one of them, gtb has a remarkably harsh downside. I get REKT for defaulting gtb and rightly so!

 

GTBs are OP and allow people to solo castles (see sinx/tkm)

 

Did you mean:

 

GTBs are OP and allow people to solo empty castles and bad guilds/alliances that don't understand safetywall? (see sinx/tkm)

 

Last woe after one of the castles was broken, I ran in with gtb/ GR on and the guild that broke it previously had MEd the emp to break it, but they left their ME there. I would have died to Gfist if I wasn't a vit build, but as luck would have it I survived long enough to watch them cancel the ME and then sanc the emp without safety walling it,

 

I died to some classic-special st patty hat uber int acid bomb and suped up stacked critical % multiplier crits doing 15k a shot through gtb, asprika, valk shield, beret.

 

So don't even compare gtb to hibram when the only reason someone will ever lose to a gtb user is bad strategy.

 

 

Yeah, don't compare something that stacks in an AOE to something that affects only a single player. 

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

"OP" is all about counterplay. FBH is OP because the user can apply its advantages very safely to a large group of people and there's really not all that much the target(s) can do about it. GTB means no redux and no buffs, Megs mean you're way overweight and reflect hurts like a bitch, GR means you can get frozen or stoned and it can be avoided with elements anyway, DR means elements hurt way more, Bryns same as GR without the ele factor, etc.

 

Battle chant and you can default GR/Bryn without being frozen. Megs are used by characters with str, so carrying pots isn't a big deal when everybody gets 2k free weight from kafra weight things. GTB is OP on every level, you can unequip it to get buffs and never worry about being dispelled besides TC. There is counter to everything, including FBH.

 

See spoiler for example of GR and BC. GR+Asprika + BC is OP. 

 

Spoiler

[Scuba]

Even if you came out with a card that gave 50% more damage to demi humans it still wouldn't have the same impact to melee that it does to matk.

 

That said  I can't in good conscience disable someone's HIBRAM because it might make me rage sometimes. I have one on Renewal, that thing is not easy to get. 

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

Battle chant and you can default GR/Bryn without being frozen. Megs are used by characters with str, so carrying pots isn't a big deal when everybody gets 2k free weight from kafra weight things. GTB is OP on every level, you can unequip it to get buffs and never worry about being dispelled besides TC. There is counter to everything, including FBH.

 

See spoiler for example of GR and BC. GR+Asprika + BC is OP. 

 

Spoiler

 

There is a theoretical counter to everything but that doesn't mean a counter is feasible in most cases. FBH is strong because it's very hard to counter, especially when the user is sac'd.

 

In a precast you can't make good use of BC if you're under ME, and it can be dispelled. BC is also quite expensive, the effects are randomly applied, and the GR/Bryn wearers can't be under BC forever. GTB isn't OP since you lose redux when you have it on and gear swapping in the middle of a fight to receive buffs isn't all that easy. You'll get focused down as soon as it comes off.

 

With FBH, the counters are ME for AoE, and Maya/Plat for singles, but ME's pretty easy to poke holes in and those gears have proc rates (Plat also AoE but again, proc rates aren't always friendly); if you eat one Amped FBH spell you're pretty much dead anyway. GTB works but the counters for GTB still apply.

Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 22 January 2015 - 09:39 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

A hw with fbh is easy to counter. For the player to have maximum damage (which "fact" the good ones go for...).. They must wear a 2 handed staff and salamander garment. This means we are talking about ending a super rare gear because people can't kill a 5k hp character with no reduction gears, can be dispelled (see 2 handed staff), and can be silenced.

It's pretty simple. Dispel the hw and soul destroy it, double straff it, arrow Vulcan it, fas it, bombs would kill it since bris's add vit, soul linker reflect well it's dispelled since 2 handed staff, bowling bash it, use magic on it, gd it or throw stones on it.

The high wizards of importance uses 2 handed staffs to increase there dps as much as possible. That means plat shields will work. I remember a friend (hw) who had all "uber" gear and died to a regular archers ds because of the "glass cannon" build that a hw requires.

As for woe 1, it seems multiple guilds are portal recalling to by pass cp teams anyways, so not sure how cp is an issue. If a hw can ever hit your guild (besides portals or cps) with aoe then it is a player mistake (dlp scholar) for not maintaining ME (gamb or holes in me'a are very forgiving on this server). Or it could be lack of knowledge of how me works and people should try spending a few min in pvp or at the beginning of woe testing it. If the hw is single targeting people then they should be dispelled (2 handed staff, 0 reductions so they can actually deal damage). If they are dispelled try will die to reflect or anything at all since they have no reductions and depend impure glass cannon builds to deal damage.

Point being, changing the game because people haven't learned how to counter an item (that requires thousands of hours, other MVP gears ect and a team of players to make viable) is a big mistake and it shouldn't happen. It would be tragic for those who spent the time to obtain the items legitly. Obviously get rid of duped if there are any.

Your all welcome for the answers btw.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

A hw with fbh is easy to counter. For the player to have maximum damage (which "fact" the good ones go for...).. They must wear a 2 handed staff and salamander garment. This means we are talking about ending a super rare gear because people can't kill a 5k hp character with no reduction gears, can be dispelled (see 2 handed staff), and can be silenced.

 

Sac?

 

Also silence = green. People with 3pps will auto-green when silence procs as well.

 

Spoiler

For fun proposition: Make it so every spell you cast with FBH equipped will autocast lex on yourself.

Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 22 January 2015 - 09:48 PM.

[Xellie]

aneurism....

 

A hw with fbh is easy to counter. For the player to have maximum damage (which "fact" the good ones go for...).. They must wear a 2 handed staff and salamander garment.

 

SOD was fixed. Keep up with the times.

 

 

This means we are talking about ending a super rare gear because people can't kill a 5k hp character with no reduction gears, can be dispelled (see 2 handed staff), and can be silenced.

 

I'll take "green potion for 500 Alex."

 

 

It's pretty simple. Dispel the hw and soul destroy it, double straff it, arrow Vulcan it, fas it, bombs would kill it since bris's add vit,

Yes, please stand infront of the hibram wizard with your twohanded weapons. Also what is a stalker and how does it work?

 

soul linker reflect well it's dispelled since 2 handed staff, bowling bash it, use magic on it, gd it or throw stones on it.

Why is your wizard standing exposed like that anyway? Also the majority of people here are concerned about cp. Does dispell work in CP now?

 

The high wizards of importance uses 2 handed staffs to increase there dps as much as possible.

No. SOD nerf.

 

 

That means plat shields will work. I remember a friend (hw) who had all "uber" gear and died to a regular archers ds because of the "glass cannon" build that a hw requires.

So you do know that plat shield can be countered. Well done.


 

As for woe 1, it seems multiple guilds are portal recalling to by pass cp teams anyways, so not sure how cp is an issue. 

I think portal recalling puts the guild on the same spawn point that they would walk on to. Now, I may be wrong on this as I have zero experience recalling guilds into CP under hibram precasts, but I'm pretty sure most CPs cover the spawn point.

 

 

If a hw can ever hit your guild (besides portals or cps) with aoe then it is a player mistake (dlp scholar) for not maintaining ME (gamb or holes in me'a are very forgiving on this server). Or it could be lack of knowledge of how me works and people should try spending a few min in pvp or at the beginning of woe testing it. If the hw is single targeting people then they should be dispelled (2 handed staff, 0 reductions so they can actually deal damage). If they are dispelled try will die to reflect or anything at all since they have no reductions and depend impure glass cannon builds to deal damage.

 

hurrr durrr twohanded staff wizard isn't shooting from across the screen and doing 40k JTs herpdederp

 

Your all welcome for the answers btw.

you're welcome for the corrections.

 

Coffee: Let's tone down the sauciness please, it's going to upset others.

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:04 PM.

[Scuba]

Yeah duped = problem. Legit players shouldn't have achievement stripped because of duping. Maybe enforce a temporary disable with a promise that the item will be re-enabled once A) All illegitimate MvPs are investigated and a new system is in place to make fakes easy to spot (as tychon suggested) or 1 -2 months passed if a solution is found or not. That way even if the illegit items are not stopped legit players are not completely hosed.

[Shomaye]

...
[FBH] is not the only reason why a guild wins fights, it is just adding consistent moderate damage.
...

 
I know this was just a tongue-in-cheek remark, but some people around here might not understand sophisticated humor like that.  Oda didn't specifically name any cards, but he used the phrase "ultra-powerful".  I just want to post the actual card description so people can make up their own minds.
 

MATK +10%. Reduces Max SP by 50%. Increases magic damage to Demihuman and Angel monsters by 50%.

 

Other people can have their own opinions, but for me, combining this w/ portal+CP makes it ultra-powerful.  I think most people arguing from that point of view aren't talking about SE gvgs at all so the fact that it isn't as powerful in that setting is irrelevant.  >50% increase in damage, laid down on all opposing players, stackable with multiple hwiz, and without a serious built-in drawback makes this way beyond moderate in my eyes.

[HikariYari]

So what about that unlimited supply of crap crystal fragments? As a Linker It's pretty crap that every wizard has an unlimited supply of crystal fragments.  

 

 

Even more crap when they have hibrams.

 

Edited by HikariYari, 22 January 2015 - 10:05 PM.

[Scuba]

I think the main point undying is trying to make is you shouldn't take away a valuable achievement like Hibrams. Given the pre-established conditions of the server, people either would or would not have hunted FBH depending on the implementation of the card. This point I agree with.

 

What I don't agree with (although if the previously mentioned point makes this irrelevant) is pretending like FBH is not a stupidly broken OP card. 10% matk is enough of an MvP card effect. 50% to angel is an MvP card effect, 50% to demi human is like 2 MvP card effects. Hell even -50% SP could be considered an MvP card effect (there are worse out there) counters soul siphon (which would be a legitimate problem if pserver WoE mentality wasn't rampant). When the next best alternative is basically a freezer carded shoe, yeah I'd say hibram is pretty OP. However, as mentioned before the question is not, "Is it OP? But, Do I have the right to take it away because it does not serve my own interests?"

Edited by Scuba, 22 January 2015 - 10:23 PM.

[Shomaye]

...
-Investigating possible reduction of power of ultra-powerful mvp cards during WoE.
...

I hope they run changes by the community before implementing them but, yeah, I would be more for a reduction/rebalance than straight out deimplementation.

[Kailash]

Even if you came out with a card that gave 50% more damage to demi humans it still wouldn't have the same impact to melee that it does to matk.

 

That said  I can't in good conscience disable someone's HIBRAM because it might make me rage sometimes. I have one on Renewal, that thing is not easy to get.

^

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

People said it's "uncounterable", so my point was to show how easy it has been to counter it. Missed opertunities because of w/e. Everything can be countered in this game.

I surely hope megs, lady tanee, and gtbs receive nerfs if fbh does. Ideally nothing should be changed.

[Xellie]

People said it's "uncounterable", so my point was to show how easy it has been to counter it. Missed opertunities because of w/e. Everything can be countered in this game.

I surely hope megs, lady tanee, and gtbs receive nerfs if fbh does. Ideally nothing should be changed.

 

It has no drawback. And it IS uncounterable. All your words have been about countering other things used in conjunction with it, not countering the card itself.

 

-50% sp is not a drawback on a server with infinite sp items

 

Look at the other cards you mentioned

 

A tanee champ loses 40% of its hp! This means it is countered DIRECTLY by reflect, or GD, or tarot. We rarely use tanee in WoE because it's uber situational - that is, it's only good in woe 2, if the champ is sac'd and nobody else is around.

 

A GTB (skipping the sp usage tho I cry like a bitch about being a linked stalker in stealth and losing 200sp/tick) removes your thara! Even if they are sacced' you can really mess up the paladin due to the loss of this reduction. You can't be buffed, healed, exhaled (which is why the sp loss is more annoying than the reduction of msp). Through the very fact of using gtb, you are opening yourself up to a lot of dangerous things, in my personal experience this is what happens.

 

gtb + GR + DR + CK + beret = ded to fist. A cranial would save me. Umm I'd say that is balanced. Also have you ever tried using a gtb in WoE without a tao sac or GR?

 

On the other hand. Would you argue that GR is unbalanced because status recovery exists? Or that you can sac a GR user if they get frozen. Blahblahblah no. Same with DR when a Sinx or FAS sniper is present. GTB is balanced by the same rock-paper-scissors type rules that hibram seems to exist outside of.

 

I am of course, enjoying the parallel to the god item/seal thread here. So keeping in mind that they said they're going to keep it "still one of the best cards but not as broken"... I'll suggest reading the thread which clearly indicates that it won't be.

 

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:09 PM.

[TheSputnik]

It has no drawback. And it IS uncounterable. All your words have been about countering other things used in conjunction with it, not countering the card itself.

 

-50% sp is not a drawback on a server with infinite sp items

 

Look at the other cards you mentioned

 

A tanee champ loses 40% of its hp! This means it is countered DIRECTLY by reflect, or GD, or tarot. We rarely use tanee in WoE because it's uber situational - that is, it's only good in woe 2, if the champ is sac'd and nobody else is around.

 

A GTB (skipping the sp usage tho I cry like a bitch about being a linked stalker in stealth and losing 200sp/tick) removes your thara! Even if they are sacced' you can really mess up the paladin due to the loss of this reduction. You can't be buffed, healed, exhaled (which is why the sp loss is more annoying than the reduction of msp). Through the very fact of using gtb, you are opening yourself up to a lot of dangerous things, in my personal experience this is what happens.

 

gtb + GR + DR + CK + beret = ded to fist. A cranial would save me. Umm I'd say that is balanced. Also have you ever tried using a gtb in WoE without a tao sac or GR?

 

On the other hand. Would you argue that GR is unbalanced because status recovery exists? Or that you can sac a GR user if they get frozen. Blahblahblah no. Same with DR when a Sinx or FAS sniper is present. GTB is balanced by the same rock-paper-scissors type rules that hibram seems to exist outside of.

 

 

GMS should focus on server performance and cheats. Woe lags with two full guilds in one fort and that shouldn't be the case. Changing fallen bishups will not fix woe, it will just make more people quit. People need to stop blaming fallen bishups for losing and just get better. GTB / Megs / hammer are just as powerful as fallen bishups in the right hands.

 

The Only fair thing to do is to create another woe day with disabled god items, mvp cards and reduced forts while keeping the other woes the same. Everybody ends up getting what they want. 

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:10 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

It would be similar to wanting seals changed to 50 like it was before renewal, on a server with a much larger population. It bothers you because you invested time into doing it at 100? As far as making people feel like they wasted time, changing/nerfing a MVP card that people spent insaine amounts of time farm would be a similar feeling.

Gtb should be included with fbh, if anything is done. Also megs should be included if there are changes.

[Xellie]

GMS should focus on server performance and cheats. Woe lags with two full guilds in one fort and that shouldn't be the case. Changing fallen bishups will not fix woe, it will just make more people quit. People need to stop blaming fallen bishups for losing and just get better. GTB / Megs / hammer are just as powerful as fallen bishups in the right hands.

 

The Only fair thing to do is to create another woe day with disabled god items, mvp cards and reduced forts while keeping the other woes the same. Everybody ends up getting what they want. 

 

Nobody is blaming "Bishups" for the state of woe. That doesn't mean they're not overpowered tho. They are overpowered when there are multiples stacked behind a cp with no drawback.
 

So here's a funny point: The staff never mentioned fbh, the players did. 

 

Stop thinking about the server in terms of the guilds that are currently playing, I assure you that it won't remain like that much longer. Start thinking about the server in terms of the established guild vs new players.

 

Server balance shouldn't be based on what is needed to fight my guild... or any guild for that matter.

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:13 PM.

[needmorezleep]

game is changing like every other game out there deal with it

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:15 PM.

[TheSputnik]

Nobody is blaming "Bishups" for the state of woe. That doesn't mean they're not overpowered tho. They are overpowered when there are multiples stacked behind a cp with no drawback.

 

So here's a funny point: The staff never mentioned fbh, the players did. 

 

Stop thinking about the server in terms of the guilds that are currently playing, I assure you that it won't remain like that much longer. Start thinking about the server in terms of the established guild vs new players.

 

Server balance shouldn't be based on what is needed to fight my guild... or any guild for that matter.

[I don't agree with this.]

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[Xellie]

[I don't agree with this.]

 

Why don't you correct me?

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:17 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

People are cheating instead of improving in the game. Changing items on an "official" server like this is enabling players to be lazy and not think of new strategies to fight against the opposition. 

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:18 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

Guilds did fine rushing a CP precast with FBH HW's here. Notice when the guilds played properly and used ME (http://irowiki.org/c.../Magnetic_Earth) they didn't die to magic. 

 

[Some people] depend on god items and borrowing other guilds god items. The result is they have many characters with 150+ str and need to be in melee ranged. This is nothing new and has happened for a year+. [Other people] focus more on a "ranged" game that depends on HW, Bombers, bolter scholars, Gyspsys, SD sinxs ect. Well "nerfing" MVP cards the balance of Megs will be broken. Easiest way to deal with players with 12+ megs? Kill them from afar!!!! This option will no longer exist as we know it and the server balance will swing drastically into favoring Megs more then anything else.

 

Most of the changes on OP look great, but leave MVP cards alone. It is clearly only 1 group of players that are pushing for this and it is for their direct benefit. It is just wrong on so many levels.

 

I think I have said all that I needed to on this thread. Cheers.

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[zerowon]

I am gonna say my piece and be done with this topic. We have not once asked for the staff to nerf melee types which are heavily apart of there roster or nerf gtb. Also does the gm team remember this topic from 2 years ago http://forums.warppo...nting-valkyrie/.
We also do not support any mvp cards being nerfed and if they are we will file a grievance with Kro as this is not how the game was intended with such drastic nerfs. If the cards are nerfed so should melee types dual ielding Meg's or have a system in place that only lets users carry a max of 1 God item/miniboss card or just 2 mvp cards max

Edited by VModCoffee, 26 March 2015 - 01:23 PM.

[needmorezleep]

kro wont care good luck with that. you still have the cards for pvm you know.