238 replies to this topic

[Macrocosmus]

I dont think there's that much that can be said at this point, the GMs just need to find a way to stop it happening here on the forums. I think they're worried about any potential backlash from handing out extended holidays to people as it'll greatly reduce their likelyhood of returning to post.

 

I dont think that many people who actually know whats going on are regularly claiming bias, a lot of them are just trolls or people who dislike one side or the other and the other side claiming bias when the GMs listen to them about a heated point. Not going to say any more about bias but both groups have direct access to the CMs at this point and the CMs will keep picking and choosing the issues they want to fix for the server as they notice them or feel that its important enough to solve.

 

There was never any intention to label VH the bad guys with that post, they're playing the game old school. Which is absolutely fine but not everyone wants to play like that anymore. In fact I dont think any other guild currently playing wants to play like that. Which is why there's so many divides in what people feel is best for the server lately and why people may think its us vs them. In a perfect world there would be 20-30 guilds active on our server, some in each tier of commitment. There would be a few guilds on VHs level fighting each other for top position on the server making items, econning forts and fighting regularly. A few on our level, hasbeens and people who are more laid back, enjoying the game at their own pace. A whole bunch at Auroras level where there's just a handful of friends who are doing their best to get involved but dont want to take the steps to hardcore it up. Dont really know where ID fit there so I cant really comment but not ignoring you!

 

As for fighting to make items it's something that probably should be happening, but it takes so long for non-VH guilds to prepare to make an item that they dont actually *want* to fight other guilds for the opportunity, because if they lose that's quite a large amount of time and effort. Especially when you're going to be coming up against VH most likely who have a player/item advantage right now (which they probably always will at this point).

 

I dont think anyone's really saying that god item creation is too "hard" but it's much more time consuming than it should be for a server this size. In fact we've been saying reduce the number of seals required since they were first implemented and there was even guilds around back then. Here's my take on god item creation. It should be a guild effort, it was designed with 56 player guilds in mind in a time where MMOs were all about being grindy and time consuming. The effort was supposed to be split amongst them fairly evenly, each player would have to do 8 quests or so a piece to get the total 400. Here that's not what's happening at all. Some guilds have more players than others willing to do the mindless questing and that's where the difference lies here. VH have what 2-4 people doing all the quests? We had one for our last item (other people pitched in but mostly one person). We still want to spread responsibility for making an item around most of our guild, we probably have 10-15 people who could contribute varying amounts of quests over a period of time to get an item made, but at 100 quests it's at best case ~6-7 quests per seal. This may not seem like a lot, but we'd also like to play the game too, running around doing quests for 3-4 hours a week is not fun. We'd much rather go to Dragons, Biolabs, Thors or level -_-ty alts.

 

Casual creation would absolutely start to cause random power concerns because the more dedicated guilds would probably start making items all over the place. The issue with this server and god items really comes down to the fact that there were a lot of drop steroids added at varying times (VIP, gum, then HE gum and semi-regular drop events) which combined with an increase in the base rate means god items are very common. There's many more sets than there should be. The best thing would be to attack that, figure out a plan of action and say "In four-six months we're going to be doing <thing> make your items before that guys!" then do whatever <thing> is. Could be removing existing parts, forcing a trade of parts 2:1 3:1 or something. While also lowering the drop chance of gods from treasure (no idea how you could make this work properly) either immediately or at that cutoff point.

 

VH is active, their leaders care about the game and regularly do stuff. They're also the big name in woe right now, people like to flock to the winners especially when if you hang around you'll get access to an active guild of experienced players with lots of items. I dont mean any of that in a negative way, it's just how I view it from the outside.

 

You have raised a lot of very good points. Although it does leave me with a few questions, if you don't mind!

 

Speaking of playing the game as if it is 2005, I have noticed in the past that you or maybe it was your GL, have mentioned that supplies should be limited from the GSBs as supply management should be a factor in WoE. Do you still believe this? Or should WoE supply be a free flowing thing allowing more time to do more team/party play in pvm?

 

Regarding creation; would it not be wise to discuss saturation control before lowering the numbers for rolling the seals, etc. As the quest stands, reducing the number of characters required would mean that ~25 characters are required per god item to be created. It is technically 50 now as you can make 2 in one sitting or share the event with your ally.

Do you propose then, that, the god item creation should not be a competed event?

 

I think this is where the disagreement between VK and VH arises. They are concerned about saturation and don't want to stop playing the game in the manner that they do. They view your posts as promoting the saturation and thus they respond to it as a threat, not to themselves, but to the future of their style of gameplay. (I trust that I interpret the posts correctly).

 

I also notice zerowon's post

 

the new guilds suffer from zeny infrastructure atm even if they did aquire a castle and went purely on gsb it would still cost them quit a bit and the rare pieces have no value. now if there was say a easier way to produce the sets that are acumleted prices woudl skyrocket no longer would u see hammer/sliepnir /bris parts in vends but they would climb 3x-5x there prices you can go about pure speculation but its called supply and demand the supply is more then the current demand for the items.

 

The posts about regular econ wipes have been about exactly this, yet VK players seem to oppose this. What is your alternative suggestion?

 

Finally,

 

Is the lack of fighting symptomatic of a low population server?

or

Is a low population server symptomatic of a lack of fighting?

[Machytys777]

      "The way it should be is one year after a god item is created the item is broken or otherwise made unusable and returns to its creator, who would need to either recreate it, pay a hefty zeny fee, or spend half of the seal stones required for creation (I would suggest perhaps a hefty zeny fee and, barring a reduction in the drop rates, all of the items required to create it originally), as it is in classic. This promotes activity from guilds, encouraging them to stay in the woe/pvm scene since if they made a few god items they would need to refresh them each year...

 

There are very few reasons to play or do things inside the game anymore, even certain items have lost their zeny making ability. Although Nidhoggur is still profitable, it will not be so in a month or two, as most players will have obtained all that they need and the purchases will stop. I believe you ought to manage the infrastructure so that it benefits activity, at least for micro transactions, for which anything worth more than 25m on average in the market should be a 1 time purchase (I think Zerowin means untradeable here, but I'm not sure, especially as I know that untradeable items are unpopular as they cannot be sold, but then he may perceive the degree to which micro transactions are profitable as a major problem and thus seek to reduce it. Alternatively he could mean that a particular player should be able to purchase only one of these items through micro transactions, or he may mean something else entirely, either way I suggest both players/community members to keep in mind that these micro transactions likely go a long way to funding the server, and anything that might make them less profitable for Warpportal could put the server itself at risk, and I don't know about you, but I want this server to survive, even if that means making concessions on what I believe would be best for the way in which I experience the game.). The kvm/token system was a way to promote activity, and it gave new players a chance to build wealth. It's also a stepping stone for new guilds to obtain tier 2 gear that can compete with the stacked gods/mvp/tier 1 gear that most remaining players have."

 

       *Disclaimer: Having paraphrased Zerowon here to save some space and because I am compelled to use correct grammar when I am writing (I have however, tried to preserve his original intent as I perceived it), even when paraphrasing another person, it is important that I tell you, the reader, that I refers to me, Machytys, not to Zerowon. I also recommend that you read his original post, as it is quite insightful, and goes beyond what I feel comfortable discussing.

     I think Zerowon has a good point here, because although I don't know how much of a problem "inherited" god items are, I can see how forcing god items to be renewed could help to slow down the production of them even in the short term, as it would force the creators of god items to have to plan not only for the creation of god items, but the upkeep of those they already own. It could also help with the current over saturation that I, being more of a casual gamer than a hard core PvP/WoE buff that some people seem to be, have not perceived, as if the creators of the current god items did not provide for their upkeep, those god items would become useless. If some do not believe that this goes far enough, one could also add in other changes suggested to make creating god items more difficult, perhaps increasing the number of some of the items required to create them whilst also lowering the drop rate of others, which would also help the economy by making those with reduced drop rates more valuable, but keep them in the reach of a smaller guild that works very hard to get the zeny to purchase the items needed for creation which they are unable to farm due perhaps to lack of access to a certain guild dungeon due to the area being dominated by larger guilds (though not necessarily the largest on the server, as sadly they would be unlikely to sell their rare god item components), as only one would be likely to increase in value by a large amount.

On the second point, I think that the best thing that can be done about increasing the zeny making ability of new players is already being done, as bots are being targeted, and despite what others may think, I have perceived a relatively gigantic reduction in the number of bots, perhaps because I only recently returned to the game after having taken a few months off and the change was therefore sudden for me, yet was likely gradual and imperceptible to most others, or perhaps they have simply abandoned the places where I roam, I don't know, maybe I scare them?

 

Finally, I get to the part where I get to talk about what DIRECTLY affects me. Zerowon claimed that the kvm system promoted activity by giving players a chance to obtain equipment, I can attest to that I would be much more interested in WoE and PvP, which I may or may not already participate in, if there were at least more activity in Battlegrounds, I recall only three days when I was able to actually gather up or find enough other people to participate in them, and only one of those times was the second team not comprised entirely of alts, might I suggest adding some way to incentivize this more, as I recall the only private server I ever played (I quit when classic came out) had a thriving battlegrounds area, even without added incentives. Sadly this community has not seemed to keep up with battlegrounds after the double badge and similar events which I assume were done to try to get the ball rolling so that people will realize it is fun and continue to attend failed, I believe this was because they were dominated by the large guilds who farmed (both teams were comprised of members of the guild and alts, with one team already set to win(though I recall turning it around on them with a couple of friends once, which was fun, especially because of how angry they got, but we were only able to do so that once, and only because we were able to trick, yes, trick a member of the guild on our team into thinking that our team was supposed to be the winning one) and thus did not work as intended. Perhaps you could add some incentive for those of us who prefer PvM, though not MVP, nor even anything that would encourage the larger guilds to farm it for their benefit. People from large guilds competing in Battlegrounds, even as a team with guild mates is fine, but farming it by fixing the matches not only ruins the fun for both teams but is undignified and immoral, attributes which should be but apparently are not always undesirable for these guilds, but I digress. Getting back to the point, battlegrounds could function as a sort of WoE training grounds, where smaller guilds can learn how to communicate, learn to fight in an organized fashion, and act as a way for them to forge alliances with other guilds that they either compete or cooperate with, as well as functioning as a fun competition for those who are lack a great deal of interest in WoE. This would not only attract new players, by offering a way for them to have a fun group vs. group pvp experience less intense than WoE, while also helping them to obtain gear for WoE. That is not to say that the WoE gear is bad for the server, but if trying to actually encourage competition in BG, thus potentially attracting new players by at least not being a deterrent, should not be incentivized. Instead, new pvm focused items, even as seemingly insignificant as the equivalent of the secured equipment which is currently sold in the kafra shop, though perhaps of a slightly higher variety because those who obtain them will likely have at least moderate gear already by the time they can compete in BG, might help. The GMs could help by doing that, and perhaps also by adding in something similar to the plan they proposed around the time of Classic's launch, of preventing multiclienting could help with or even eliminate (I'm being optimistic here) the issue of farming the badges, with the stipulation of course, that it would only work for BG, and that multiclienting would remain unrestricted elsewhere, as that is so controversial an idea that even I am not sure of my position on it. Finally, (for BG, as well as for the rest of my post, as I am ending it on the subject of BG, though even I am disappointed in myself from straying too far from the explicit subject of this forum, but everybody probably agrees that the implicit subject is the low server population and ideas on how to raise it, and I am at least trying to address THAT, and in a way which is at least 3rd party, like that one guy in Congress who is neither a Democrat nor a Republican who suggests something and has an equal chance of everyone hating it or everyone loving it, and hopes for the latter) the community could solve the problem of BG entirely on their own if they decided the benefits outweighed the trouble simply by organizing and competing themselves, heck they wouldn't even have to use supplies if they foster enough trust with each other and promise not to use them (though still actually compete, of course), but they don't, I hope because they don't think of it like I do, and that I can persuade them to my way of thinking about BG, not that I will be able to organize a large number (or the first after this post) if I wish to remain anonymous.

[Viri]

Just require each god item to consume 1 of each part required to make it every X(1 or 3?) months or it goes dormant. That'll force people to decide whether to create a new god item or use the pieces to keep their current ones running. It'll also kill the heck out of RMT. A+

[zerowon]

The pure item saturation are from defunct guilds from early on in the servers start heck one time I stole the cat tread fort from vh solo I got 2 of em and the Econ was only 15 -18 during a drops event. Am not oppose to Econ wipes but two years later is a bit late I eouldrnt see s problem if we can trade in over saturation items for something of value. Again this is why parts have no real value there's too many drop events/vip/gum modifiers. Fighting wise in my two years here my guild didn't really have to go looking for fights as the action came to us or during the 3v3 alliance se woes everyone would duke it out. As I said before losing insur/ nostalgic was a giant death spin of woe as they all had a large amount of items waiting to be made and there player base/temp players were huge in comparison atm I feel a lack of even quality fights is the reason players don't log in. Even myself no longer wish to participate in 2.0 as am always outnumbered in situations and I don't wish to bully the smaller guilds like t5 or ID.

[Macrocosmus]

How is the situation supposed to improve if you hurt your guild's numbers by not logging in?

[Gn1ydnu]

How is the situation supposed to improve if you hurt your guild's numbers by not logging in?

It's either get demoralized by losing badly for 2 hours straight and lose members. Or log in at end for castles and avoid getting demoralized. Not that this is anybody's fault, it's just there is not any form of relatively even fights.

When one side dominates another (insert reason here) the other will avoid them. Even the "big" guilds now did that same tactic back when they were not big.

It's lose lose since there isn't any variety in opponents. There is no similar guilds, there are number issues and item issues. None is the players fault, it just is what it is.

Playing and getting demoralized for 2 hours isn't fun. Playing an dominating with no challenge for 2 hours isn't fun and part of the reason why I left guilds before (I like challenges). With no middle ground an no alternative opponent, it makes it stale and boring. To invest time/money into a game it should brig some fun or enjoyment. Havein. A landslide win/loss with no other option isn't fun or appealing to people like me.

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 27 February 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[Themes]

You have raised a lot of very good points. Although it does leave me with a few questions, if you don't mind!

 

Speaking of playing the game as if it is 2005, I have noticed in the past that you or maybe it was your GL, have mentioned that supplies should be limited from the GSBs as supply management should be a factor in WoE. Do you still believe this? Or should WoE supply be a free flowing thing allowing more time to do more team/party play in pvm?

 

Regarding creation; would it not be wise to discuss saturation control before lowering the numbers for rolling the seals, etc. As the quest stands, reducing the number of characters required would mean that ~25 characters are required per god item to be created. It is technically 50 now as you can make 2 in one sitting or share the event with your ally.

Do you propose then, that, the god item creation should not be a competed event?

 

I think this is where the disagreement between VK and VH arises. They are concerned about saturation and don't want to stop playing the game in the manner that they do. They view your posts as promoting the saturation and thus they respond to it as a threat, not to themselves, but to the future of their style of gameplay. (I trust that I interpret the posts correctly).

 

I also notice zerowon's post

 

 

The posts about regular econ wipes have been about exactly this, yet VK players seem to oppose this. What is your alternative suggestion?

 

Finally,

 

Is the lack of fighting symptomatic of a low population server?

or

Is a low population server symptomatic of a lack of fighting?

 

We're both fairly against the concept of infinite supplies. That's not to say we're against GSBs, it's probably one of the best changes the GMs have implemented. But I definitely feel that supplies are a thing that should be limited enough to make someone think about before engaging a target. Right now for example bombers can just sort of throw out as many bombs as they please and guilds can run as many of them as they want. But with a limited amount of supplies you might pick and choose your targets carefully focusing on those you can do the most damage to and a guild would only run as many as they could afford to supply each week. Basically it comes down to the positives outweighing the negatives, GSBs were great and have pretty much eliminated the need for people to bot supplies for siege. There's probably some imbalances in the contents but it's a minor thing. I'd still really like to see them balance out the guild dungeons to make them roughly even for getting boxes also.

 

Yeah the whole thing should be talked through and sorted out before any action is taken, it'd be kind of silly to just make changes without addressing the root cause. I'm also not a huge fan of double creations, they do offset the 100 quest requirement but in a really awkward way. If they were to lower the quest count to 50 I'd expect and encourage them to remove double creations.

 

I do think guilds should be able to compete for creation, but I feel that most of the effort for competition should be in the gathering of the items. There have been plenty of examples on this server where guilds have deliberately blocked other guilds from getting pieces they know they want. But traditionally creation has been done during enemy guilds least active times as all you had to do was talk to an NPC and run through the hallway to make an item. There was never any real competition or challenge in making an item before the changes here on Classic just superior organisational skills.

 

That seems a somewhat accurate interpretation. We're also just not really that interested in how many items VH (or any other guild really) makes. Which is the opposite view I think they seem to take on the matter. That's not to say we're pro saturation or anything, we're just more focused on our own items and achievements than what other people are doing.

 

We're mostly against econ wipes on principle, especially when one gets announced during a period when we're currently econning a fort. I can understand the GMs reasoning for wanting to do a wipe during a serious fort rearrangement like they're planning, but I'd much rather prefer a hands off approach from the GMs on something the players should be in control of. Although I cant really argue with the idea of a small drop in econ/defense any time a 2.0 item is made from a fort.

 

As for your last question, it's absolutely the population. When WC/Hatebreed were here they were fighting non-stop. We're not interested in fighting quite the same way they are with single GVG victories not really meaning a whole lot to us and I think it rubs people the wrong way. We'd much rather defend or attack a fort than fight like that. There's also the differences in size/gear between the four active guilds we have now, not one of them is really the equal of another and it's not actually that fun to fight guilds larger or much powerful than yours. You can only learn so much from losing fights/forts four hours a week.

 

Also really interested in the idea of requiring god items to be topped up by something, not sure the best way to handle it but it's a neat idea.

 

And there's been a bunch of posts since I started writing this I'll read them a bit later.

[Macrocosmus]

We're both fairly against the concept of infinite supplies. That's not to say we're against GSBs, it's probably one of the best changes the GMs have implemented. But I definitely feel that supplies are a thing that should be limited enough to make someone think about before engaging a target. Right now for example bombers can just sort of throw out as many bombs as they please and guilds can run as many of them as they want. But with a limited amount of supplies you might pick and choose your targets carefully focusing on those you can do the most damage to and a guild would only run as many as they could afford to supply each week. Basically it comes down to the positives outweighing the negatives, GSBs were great and have pretty much eliminated the need for people to bot supplies for siege. There's probably some imbalances in the contents but it's a minor thing. I'd still really like to see them balance out the guild dungeons to make them roughly even for getting boxes also.

 

Yeah the whole thing should be talked through and sorted out before any action is taken, it'd be kind of silly to just make changes without addressing the root cause. I'm also not a huge fan of double creations, they do offset the 100 quest requirement but in a really awkward way. If they were to lower the quest count to 50 I'd expect and encourage them to remove double creations.

 

I do think guilds should be able to compete for creation, but I feel that most of the effort for competition should be in the gathering of the items. There have been plenty of examples on this server where guilds have deliberately blocked other guilds from getting pieces they know they want. But traditionally creation has been done during enemy guilds least active times as all you had to do was talk to an NPC and run through the hallway to make an item. There was never any real competition or challenge in making an item before the changes here on Classic just superior organisational skills.

 

That seems a somewhat accurate interpretation. We're also just not really that interested in how many items VH (or any other guild really) makes. Which is the opposite view I think they seem to take on the matter. That's not to say we're pro saturation or anything, we're just more focused on our own items and achievements than what other people are doing.

 

We're mostly against econ wipes on principle, especially when one gets announced during a period when we're currently econning a fort. I can understand the GMs reasoning for wanting to do a wipe during a serious fort rearrangement like they're planning, but I'd much rather prefer a hands off approach from the GMs on something the players should be in control of. Although I cant really argue with the idea of a small drop in econ/defense any time a 2.0 item is made from a fort.

 

As for your last question, it's absolutely the population. When WC/Hatebreed were here they were fighting non-stop. We're not interested in fighting quite the same way they are with single GVG victories not really meaning a whole lot to us and I think it rubs people the wrong way. We'd much rather defend or attack a fort than fight like that. There's also the differences in size/gear between the four active guilds we have now, not one of them is really the equal of another and it's not actually that fun to fight guilds larger or much powerful than yours. You can only learn so much from losing fights/forts four hours a week.

 

Also really interested in the idea of requiring god items to be topped up by something, not sure the best way to handle it but it's a neat idea.

 

And there's been a bunch of posts since I started writing this I'll read them a bit later.

 

Regarding supplies; I agree with you. The trade off however was to be outperformed by bots. GD should be improved all around, not just to equalize the supplies from each GD, but exp also. It would be interesting if different GDs gave different supply items, such as WSS from Luina (because clocktower theming) or Poison things from Payon, converts from Geffen, SP from Valk.

 

Gathering items for gods can't ever be the hardest part ever again. Sad but true. It should have been. As far as blocking guilds from completing sets, I know my GL just ignores competed forts to get more sets as they know X fort can't be held forever.

 

Re: Saturation.

I assume that everyone's items are included in saturation concerns, regardless of "sides". One can argue VH would have less items if VK rolled seals and well, I suppose apathy played to their favor. It doesn't seem like they're too concerned about how many their "enemies" have but just the overall number. In terms of server health, that is the only thing that matters. The distribution of the items is a competition issue, not a saturation one. Not saying this to put VK down, just calling it how it is.

 

I don't think there are any GVG guilds on the server presently, have VK/VH reached out to eachother to try and make the atmosphere more fun? If not for anything other than to attempt to create a fun atmosphere for newer/active players to participate in.

 

God Item top up is an amazing idea and I support this ++

[Gn1ydnu]

As themes said, they are not interested in gvging. So fights like that won't happen.

[Macrocosmus]

Nobody said anything about gvging.

[Themes]

I'd much rather they just boost the spawns for each guild dungeon to make a forts drops your goal and not having to take a guild dungeon in <realm> for <item>, god imagine needing to take a fort in all four realms every week.

 

There's no real argument that VH would have less items if we made the rest of ours. We'd focus on double creations and I'm sure other guilds would eventually slip a few past us during those, especially with quest counts not resetting, the threat of a guild with a complete quest set is enough that nobody will actually do anything about the seals until its been made.

 

GVGing is the first thing most people think of when you start to talk about competition or fun for woe. There's really no chance the two guilds will work together for any real ingame project, at least as things stand right now.

 

As for what Machytys777 was saying, we've been trying to get them to "fix" BGs for a long time now. Flavius is really not very good, soon as it went in people just fell back on mindlessly farming, we used to see a lot more activity in Tierra with a pretty regular group of people there most evenings. If Tierra can be made a viable alternative again I'm sure more people would be interested in playing as there's actually a reason to fight there. We also proposed that players would actually be able to talk to the NPCs to start a megaphone-like event where the server was told that someone was starting BGs and had <x> players already. But I think they misinterpreted it at the time and we never really followed up on it, I'm sure if you spoke to Xellie or Grace that they'd do a shout for you if you were looking at starting it up though.

 

[Macrocosmus]

Ah, my idea was based on creating trade between guilds. I know some guilds prefer self sufficiency.

 

What is the seal status right now? Are there unmade items sitting on complete quests?

 

I think it would be beneficial if VH/VK put a little bit of their pride aside and talked about what is most fun for their members. You both have your god items either made or unmade, I am sure that economy holding isn't viable right now, so why not try to do something to increase the guild population? if VH was willing, would VK be? They talk about wanting a viable enemy often and helping smaller guilds. Like it or not, VH and VK are eachother's playmates, so try to help eachother.

 

BGs need that respawn bug fixed and Tierra rewards increased.

[Machytys777]

As themes said, they are not interested in gvging. So fights like that won't happen.

 

I hate to sound nitpicky, but could you please not use a pronoun when there isn't an established noun which it can be replacing, i.e. what is "that"?

As it is, I can only guess that you mean large fights, but I don't see why we are talking as though there only have to be two guilds on the server, when there are not even now, and why is it that other smaller guilds cannot band together? I'm sure that with some practice, such guilds could, cooperating with one another, at least give the larger guilds trouble if what they, the smaller guilds, desire is the thrill of the fight, nor are those in the larger guilds forced to stay, sure there are benefits, but what's the point of having all these extra supplies and all of this high end equipment if you aren't enjoying the game? If each person thinks about it and decides whether they prefer the fight or the war (which is to say, playing the long term game that VK and VH are apparently playing, where the focus is, again apparently, about building their power bases), and be able to do what is best for themselves, if you prefer a fairer fight and don't think you're getting it, perhaps you should find another guild or make your own, and find another less powerful guild to battle in a fight that is more even, and if you can't find one even after that, then I'm sorry but your personal taste for battle is not shared by the vast majority of the community, so much of it, in fact, that you can't even find someone to fight if you try, in which case I don't think there is anyone that can help you, because the problem with the lack of gvg fights would stem at least as much from the philosophies of the participants in WoE as it would from any oversaturation of god items (not that this isn't also a problem).
 

[Themes]

Ah, my idea was based on creating trade between guilds. I know some guilds prefer self sufficiency.

 

What is the seal status right now? Are there unmade items sitting on complete quests?

 

I think it would be beneficial if VH/VK put a little bit of their pride aside and talked about what is most fun for their members. You both have your god items either made or unmade, I am sure that economy holding isn't viable right now, so why not try to do something to increase the guild population? if VH was willing, would VK be? They talk about wanting a viable enemy often and helping smaller guilds. Like it or not, VH and VK are eachother's playmates, so try to help eachother.

 

BGs need that respawn bug fixed and Tierra rewards increased.

 

I think VH have two sets of quests complete right now, dont think anyone else has any that I'm aware of.

 

What do you mean by "do something to increase the guild population"? The main problem a lot of people have is comparing the two guilds, we have entirely different groups of players and goals. There's also a very different level of commitment from the two guilds, we're happy cruising along at whatever pace we like to get stuff done and VHs is much quicker. It's also going to be very difficult as our leader really has no interest in working with them (various reasons, most of them would start unneeded drama in here so lets just not bother).

 

I generally ignore almost all the "BGs is starting come join in!" shouts, but only because it's Flavius. If someone wanted to try starting up Tierra I'd be there pretty quick on any number of guys.

[Gn1ydnu]

I hate to sound nitpicky, but could you please not use a pronoun when there isn't an established noun which it can be replacing, i.e. what is "that"?

I shall continue as long as you write 100+ word sentences. <3

There will be no more gvg. Those players are gone and gave away everything. I think your right in the way that it would be nice to know what the remaining guilds want.

The struggles I see all stem from population issues. I do not see the incentive to play the server (as a new player), besides from being offical. Something is/has been wrong for a long time to make the population below 400, which includes all bots/venders, on a Thursday.

Not saying a server is all about having a good woe scene, but that is clearly a vital part of it.

[Machytys777]

I shall continue as long as you write 100+ word sentences. <3

There will be no more gvg. Those players are gone and gave away everything. I think your right in the way that it would be nice to know what the remaining guilds want.

The struggles I see all stem from population issues. I do not see the incentive to play the server (as a new player), besides from being offical. Something is/has been wrong for a long time to make the population below 400, which includes all bots/venders, on a Thursday.

Not saying a server is all about having a good woe scene, but that is clearly a vital part of it.

 

I agree with you on all parts, in fact, my tendency to take too long to say something is something my English teacher is constantly trying to get me to improve upon, so I suppose I shall strive to do the same here...starting tomorrow.

 

Also though there is something wrong with a server that's had 400 pop for so long, but with woe at least people CAN decide to fix it themselves, which is something that at least deserves a serious discussion. Which is the province of either the guild leaders and higher up members only or of only the "temps" and less well known/lower ranked members only, which I understand is hard for everybody, the more invested guild members dislike their enemies for the most part, and the less invested ones have become friends with the more invested ones, and don't want to let them down in any way, thus they follow their lead.

Edited by Machytys777, 28 February 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[Macrocosmus]

I think VH have two sets of quests complete right now, dont think anyone else has any that I'm aware of.

 

What do you mean by "do something to increase the guild population"? The main problem a lot of people have is comparing the two guilds, we have entirely different groups of players and goals. There's also a very different level of commitment from the two guilds, we're happy cruising along at whatever pace we like to get stuff done and VHs is much quicker. It's also going to be very difficult as our leader really has no interest in working with them (various reasons, most of them would start unneeded drama in here so lets just not bother).

 

I generally ignore almost all the "BGs is starting come join in!" shouts, but only because it's Flavius. If someone wanted to try starting up Tierra I'd be there pretty quick on any number of guys.

Two?

 

The reason I'm suggesting doing something working with VH, rather than completely against is first of all, the opinions of VK members vary greatly on the forum. VK doesn't seem very unified in what it wants as a whole (no offense), where as most VH members seem to be on the same page. Seems like their guildleader posts heavilly on the behalf of most of the guild too, but anyway. It has been stated that VK won't fight VH because reasons, what are those reasons and could VH do something to make WoE more enjoyable for VK? What is VKs ideal WoE? How could things change to improve player participation rates?

 

Regarding BG, I'm sure that if you tell Xellie or Grace to shout for Tierra, they will.

Edited by Macrocosmus, 27 February 2015 - 04:52 PM.

[Gn1ydnu]

For bg you can also pm me in game at any time for a shout. Nagasaki or Ultimate Bash.

Edited by Gn1ydnu, 27 February 2015 - 04:55 PM.

[Shomaye]

...entirely different groups of players and goals. ... our leader ...

 

I've never heard of a guild leader being a curmudgeon before (/gg). I guess some things will have to be worked out between members.  With respect to goals, we have to decide if we (as individual players and as guilds) want to keep playing.  If we do, there must be some things that we can agree on that would help the server.  These things should be the goals we have in common.

 

There are even some things we can all do to help population.  VH has actually recruited new(!) players in the last few months.  These players are now established and are helping more new players.  This takes work and it doesn't always pay off, but its something to think about.  (And I get the point that every new player joining established guilds doesn't please everyone.)

 

There are members in every guild that will never be pleased and its impossible to know everyone's motivations.  Most of us don't actually hate each other so we can figure out more solutions.  I have to read through this thread again but I'll try to post something tomorrow.  For the people that do hate each other, take a page from cinquine's(<3) book and care bear it up a little?

[Quanta]

(And I get the point that every new player joining established guilds doesn't please everyone.)

There's not much that can be done about this imo unless you can coax new players into establishing their own guilds, but the low pop of the server I feel hurts this idea as well. People want others to play with, after all.

 

As for joining VH vs. one of the other guilds on the server, my immediate impression of the situation when I joined Classic was that VH were the only ones who really seemed to care about the welfare of the server and were making suggestions to make it better. Not just Xellie either; I see Almr, Cinquine, and others making efforts to improve the situation as well all the time. When I'd wander into these kinds of threads, threads about improving WoE (and hopefully encouraging people to come back and play it), I'd see two things: Xellie trying to suggest ways to improve the WoE situation, and a bunch of faceless jerks (who I came to learn were the other guild, Valk) who would attack her points while contributing very little, if anything, to the overall discussion. I'd also look at iROWiki's forums and see more of the same bull-_-. I was left with the impression that one side, the VH side, wanted to see real change and improvements in the game, while the other, presumably the Valk side, only seemed to care about the conflict. Even now, I'm left with the impression that Valk/Aurora/whoever just don't care; they don't even care enough to have avatars and identities on the forums here so that they might stand out a bit instead of fading into the background. Given all of this, It shouldn't surprise anyone why I and others decided to apply to VH.

[zerowon]

I beg to differ about that I was trying to make the server a better competitive environment circa slotted mids they were key items pre morroc and it was total rng from the slot sunnies coupons to the actual lucky boxes. My first pair I spend 3bil in zeny for coupons then $250 in kp when Taikus went in the box and stil didn't get it friends went though the same things. So there was alot of p2w early on and I was against that. As far as my identity on the forums go my signature imo is my calling. Card as I use it in all the forums I visit but for u I updated my avatar . Also the kvm proposal was basied on my ideas to use the Jro link system and modified by the gm team accordingly. We try to contribute we just don't need credit for it.

[Themes]

I've never heard of a guild leader being a curmudgeon before (/gg). I guess some things will have to be worked out between members.  With respect to goals, we have to decide if we (as individual players and as guilds) want to keep playing.  If we do, there must be some things that we can agree on that would help the server.  These things should be the goals we have in common.

 

There are even some things we can all do to help population.  VH has actually recruited new(!) players in the last few months.  These players are now established and are helping more new players.  This takes work and it doesn't always pay off, but its something to think about.  (And I get the point that every new player joining established guilds doesn't please everyone.)

 

There are members in every guild that will never be pleased and its impossible to know everyone's motivations.  Most of us don't actually hate each other so we can figure out more solutions.  I have to read through this thread again but I'll try to post something tomorrow.  For the people that do hate each other, take a page from cinquine's(<3) book and care bear it up a little?

 

Yeah it's hard, the only real thing we can agree on at this point is that the server needs something, but what that something is, is quite different for each of us.

 

We've recruited a couple of new players, but we're just not active enough outside woe to have room for lots of new people. There's also the problem of player burnout, we've basically had the same rotating roster of players for the last 18 months or so. Where a couple of people will play a lot for a short period then sort of drift away making room for a couple of people to return and there's really not much we can do about it. Timezones/work/school all make it hard for the players we have to get together at reasonable times to do "guild stuff" and we havent managed to sit down and do anything outside of woe in a while.

 

A lot of people just look at a guild/group of players and form instant opinions based on what they've seen or heard. It's fairly easy to convince someone to dislike people without really getting to know who they are or what they're doing. I dont think anyone in Valk really has any dislike for VH as a whole, we've certainly got our own opinions about various players inside, but we try not to let it get in the way of how we play the game or what we have to say about the server as a whole.

 

As for joining VH vs. one of the other guilds on the server, my immediate impression of the situation when I joined Classic was that VH were the only ones who really seemed to care about the welfare of the server and were making suggestions to make it better. Not just Xellie either; I see Almr, Cinquine, and others making efforts to improve the situation as well all the time. When I'd wander into these kinds of threads, threads about improving WoE (and hopefully encouraging people to come back and play it), I'd see two things: Xellie trying to suggest ways to improve the WoE situation, and a bunch of faceless jerks (who I came to learn were the other guild, Valk) who would attack her points while contributing very little, if anything, to the overall discussion. I'd also look at iROWiki's forums and see more of the same bull-_-. I was left with the impression that one side, the VH side, wanted to see real change and improvements in the game, while the other, presumably the Valk side, only seemed to care about the conflict. Even now, I'm left with the impression that Valk/Aurora/whoever just don't care; they don't even care enough to have avatars and identities on the forums here so that they might stand out a bit instead of fading into the background. Given all of this, It shouldn't surprise anyone why I and others decided to apply to VH.

 

lol

 

That last sentence or two is the funniest stuff though. Because I dont have any avatar I just dont care about the community? I havent ever really used an avatar for any forums I've posted on in quite some time. Just because I dont have a huge anime sig with gifs and links to all my characters and pay for some commissioned art of my dudes, doesnt mean I care any less than you do or that my opinions are any less valid. If you'd taken any opportunities to get to know any of us or speak to us ingame you might find yourself surprised. We're all just here to play a game, your view of how much we care about the game is overwhelmingly skewed by how much Xellie cares, there's a reason why VH is so big, active and successful here.

 

We're not that concerned where people decide to apply and play, we're fairly set in our ways and want to play the game our way. We're not going to lure in people with false promises we cant deliver on, I'm sure the couple of new players we've recently recruited have been enjoying themselves, but they're under no illusion about who we are, how we play the game and what we can do for them. Our recruitment thread probably hasnt been bumped in months or updated since it was first made. If people would like to apply or come chat with us we're around, but not interested in constantly recruiting more players than we can handle.

 

In general though I think there's very little mixing from players from various guilds as there isnt really anything to do. I think in a real server (or earlier on in Classic) BGs or PvP really served that kind of purpose. But BGs here are farming snoozefests and there just isnt enough people around to keep PvP active at various times throughout the day. Without the kind of mixing you'd normally expect the us vs them just keeps growing as the only interactions outside the 4 hours of woe is discussing the future of the server here where everyone has different opinions.

 

If we were to look into a system where you had to top up your god items length via pieces what do people think would be a reasonable amount? I'm sort of thinking for six months of extension one of each piece for that item + something else, maybe seal stones or something obtained through being an actual guild. Because there will always be pieces available for people to purchase if they want to top up their own item as it expires, requiring something else might be a better option to keep them less personal after a guild or group has left.

[AlmrOfAtlas]

I've been mixing a lot with the AL3 TI. I think I've been in more AnO (RIP), Valk, Aurora and random unguilded parties than I have VH funnily enough. Places to gather for leveling, directed by quests are imo some of the best ways to mix and meet. Keep those events coming, and keep them fresh enough so that people don't burn out.

 

I'd love for PvP to become more active and serve as a sort of "competitive" meeting place like it was around 2006-2007, but players tend to avoid it under the impression that it's either completely empty and not worth their time, or full of unkillable cheaters toting godlies and not worth their time. Either way, nobody's really inclined to it. That consumableless PvP was a step in the right direction but the implementation was botched and it hasn't received much attention since.

 

If we were to look into a system where you had to top up your god items length via pieces what do people think would be a reasonable amount? I'm sort of thinking for six months of extension one of each piece for that item + something else, maybe seal stones or something obtained through being an actual guild. Because there will always be pieces available for people to purchase if they want to top up their own item as it expires, requiring something else might be a better option to keep them less personal after a guild or group has left.

 

 

God item renewal should coincide with the econ reset schedule. Quarterly, half-yearly, whatever the timeframe is going to be; as god items are related to WoE they should correlate to WoE. Renewing a god should imo at least half the total cost of that item + 50 stones from whatever seal the god is related to. Megs get meg stones. Sleips get sleip stones. A god owner should not be able to renew their item for longer than the time between econ resets, and they should only be open to renewal at the beginning of each "season".

Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 28 February 2015 - 12:55 AM.

[Tribe]

I'd love for PvP to become more active and serve as a sort of "competitive" meeting place like it was around 2006-2007, but players tend to avoid it under the impression that it's either completely empty and not worth their time, or full of unkillable cheaters toting godlies and not worth their time. Either way, nobody's really inclined to it. That consumableless PvP was a step in the right direction but the implementation was botched and it hasn't received much attention since.

 I don't think god items make pvp bad..

 

Its just GR/DR that makes me and a lot of people rage. 

 

Add a pvp count/shout that lets people see how many people are in pvp and also remove half the pvp maps! leave something like Payon, Iuzlude and give us like one "real" pvp map. Let people save in the pvp waiting room and add a repair/storage npc in there also. 

[AlmrOfAtlas]

 I don't think god items make pvp bad..

 

Its just GR/DR that makes me and a lot of people rage. 

 

Add a pvp count/shout that lets people see how many people are in pvp and also remove half the pvp maps! leave something like Payon, Iuzlude and give us like one "real" pvp map. Let people save in the pvp waiting room and add a repair/storage npc in there also. 

 

I meant gods, MVPs, minis and insanely overupped top-tier gear like >+8 red swords, sods and infils, headgears like skull cap, emh, voh and such. Things that no new-ish player could ever hope to afford let alone compete with. "Godly" gear, not just gods.

 

Whatever the definition though I totally agree with you XD

 

The shouter idea is excellent. I think Oda quite liked it when Pie brought it up recently. Let's hope it goes somewhere.