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Serious Reevaluation of the Volunteer Mod Program


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#26 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:30 PM

what?  not sure what you mean by that.

 

 

I think this is a tad overboard, given I work my own full time job and also help him quite a bit during and after that job I can understand the pressure of an 8 hour work day and not getting all the daily duties done plus the 555 PMs he gets.  It'd be a full time job just keeping up with PMs and all forum posts and having done that myself for 5 years it is exhausting.  Not excusing no answer at all but I don't think saying that is really justified.  Spamming will get a response I agree, you have to keep trying, but at least be civilized about it if you must.  I wouldn't wanna listen to someone very closely if they were calling me names and yelling and screaming at me as if I personally was the one who offended. 

 

Lets not forget being a mod is also stressful (I've personally had people issue death threats to me and how they'd rape me if they found me and a whole list of other things you think another human being would never say out loud face to face), given the choice between doing the right thing and the easy thing...its not always easy to do the right thing given X user will jive up a mob mentality and nobody usually takes the moderators side.  I'm not excusing what recently happened as I was also caught up in it and extremely upset that the guidelines were absolutely ignored.  The mods of the day back then all agreed to write a set of a rules for us to police one another so as not to make the whole establishment look stupid and bad and also provide a way of enforcement.  They need amending a bit to be honest but it really just seems with the anon mod system a very small few haven't learned the ropes with it or just blatantly choose their own ideals over that of the institution and I agree that needs to be addressed.  I personally had 12 posts removed in one topic that didn't come close to rule breaking and so did other folks, there is no excuse for using a chainsaw in place of a scalpel.  

 

 

 

Thats not how it was done, I can testify to that.  Game history, post history and random interviews with (in recent years) the established mods as to if they know much about X person in Y game.  I don't know how much more you could do.

 

If you guys are adamant on keeping the anon system for mods then you need to absolutely forbid them from posting casually on those accounts. Modding only. Red text only. For everything else like general discussion and GIVING OPINIONS (important) they should be on their real accounts. I know of at least one VMod that loves his elevated account so dearly that he's pretty much trashed his original account and posts every little thing that crosses his mind on the elevated one.
 
Don't make me name names because I don't want to get banned again.
 
Mods being stressed? No kidding, but if they can't handle the stress of adhering to the guidelines and modding things properly, why the hell are they mods?
 
And if for whatever reasons Oda can't deal with keeping his mods in line, then the system needs to change.

Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 04 April 2015 - 07:33 PM.

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#27 Cinquine

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:31 PM

I think it goes without saying it would require a thick skin.


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#28 Inubashiri

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:38 PM

 

If you guys are adamant on keeping the anon system for mods then you need to absolutely forbid them from posting casually on those accounts. Modding only. Red text only. For everything else like general discussion and GIVING OPINIONS (important) they should be on their real accounts.
 
Don't make me name names because I don't want to get banned again.
 
Mods being stressed? No kidding, but if they can't handle the stress of adhering to the guidelines and modding things properly, why the hell are they mods?
 
And if for whatever reasons Oda can't deal with keeping his mods in line, then the system needs to change.

 

 

And I took your side on a few of the issues, so really give me some respect here but only because the punishment didn't fit the crime and it was more knee jerk than calmly processing.  The VMods aren't supposed to be posting personal opinions, they are supposed to be automatons basically, so if they are then it needs to be addressed.  Addressing a bug or something or game related responses is fine.  The stress issue, honestly is a two way street and some people's responses are in no way shape or form warranted when it goes into a personal attack, that can be and should be handled privately.  Not saying the system isn't flawed and constructive reasonable suggestions are welcome, its never been perfect but to be fair at the time back then Heim was mainly the head person in the RO 1 stuff, when he went to RO 2 Oda inherited a lot of responsibility and he just can't be as full time on the forums like he was in the past.  Again I'm not excusing no response but only offering some frame of mind.


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#29 schia

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:39 PM

I think it goes without saying it would require a thick skin.

 

i'm sure they'd need something thick, if you know what i mean (=∩_∩=)

 

 

Oda: Not appropriate. 


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#30 ChakriGuard

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:41 PM

This will get good <3

I like Cinna mod most, kind and cute and and wahhhh /wah
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#31 Xellie

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:43 PM

And I took your side on a few of the issues, so really give me some respect here but only because the punishment didn't fit the crime and it was more knee jerk than calmly processing.  The VMods aren't supposed to be posting personal opinions, they are supposed to be automatons basically, so if they are then it needs to be addressed.  Addressing a bug or something or game related responses is fine.  The stress issue, honestly is a two way street and some people's responses are in no way shape or form warranted when it goes into a personal attack, that can be and should be handled privately.  Not saying the system isn't flawed and constructive reasonable suggestions are welcome, its never been perfect but to be fair at the time back then Heim was mainly the head person in the RO 1 stuff, when he went to RO 2 Oda inherited a lot of responsibility and he just can't be as full time on the forums like he was in the past.  Again I'm not excusing no response but only offering some frame of mind.

 

You know I support you and the mods, I always have. And I always will to a degree.

 

But stress is part of the job and it's how they handle it which they need be tested on.

 

Remember, I said I'd always call it how it is. And I am. Right now. And if Oda needs more help, or different kinds of help, he needs to let the community know because there are those who care greatly about the community but act up for *reasons* (you know what is going on)

 

edit: you can't call it a two way street, because stress for the user leaves them feeling rather helpless / powerless. So if over time they are rebelling because the system isn't helping them, you can't stand there and decry their feelings toward the situation either. It sucks and it's hard work but that's how communities work. The mod in this case is the one with power and the user will feel cornered/inferior. You must keep this in mind and don't try to turn it on them.

 

The mods know what they signed up for. Or maybe they didn't. But they should by now.


Edited by Xellie, 04 April 2015 - 07:47 PM.

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#32 kingarthur6687

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:47 PM

Disclaimer: I am running on the assumption that VMods are only supposed to be moderating within their given forum sections (Cinnamon for RO1, Sushi for RO2, etc.) during their modding routine, given the backlash of "you're an RO2 mod" and whatnot.

 

 

I feel this thread should exist because the issue is that because of the VMod account's complete anonymity they are not assigned to any particular game section and hence feel free to mod ALL sections when they were brought on to monitor certain ones.

 

Honestly, the real blame here lies on the administrators of these forums (Oda, Camp, etc.) putting Volunteer Mods into a user group that has global mod powers, instead of placing them into separate user groups with mod powers only granted to specific sections. I've used IPB as an admin before, it is easy to make individual user groups that only have mod powers in certain places and then assign mods to those groups as appropriate. Dumping mods into a user group with global moderation permissions when they're not supposed to exercise those powers outside of their given areas (except in the case of emergencies?) is lazy.


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#33 Inubashiri

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:52 PM

You know I support you and the mods, I always have. And I always will to a degree.

 

But stress is part of the job and it's how they handle it which they need be tested on.

 

Remember, I said I'd always call it how it is. And I am. Right now. And if Oda needs more help, or different kinds of help, he needs to let the community know because there are those who care greatly about the community but act up for *reasons* (you know what is going on)

 

And I don't disagree, I've often ranted at you instead of on the forums because we've shared a mutual respect in that aspect.  Some just have to acquire that thicker skin over time. However, there is a difference between giving and receiving stress, and purposely just hating on a mod in a random thread even if they don't even have anything to do with it is kinda low.  Some of these issues just can't be crowd sourced, its like me trying to address some of the taboo issues with Classic we always talk about, sometimes its just not appropriate for me to be the one dealing strictly with it, making recommendations is one thing.  Its like one time someone suggested having a community review panel of mods and its like...you'd be right back at the same issues because its just a title, not a full fledged job with real consequences.


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#34 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:54 PM

Disclaimer: I am running on the assumption that VMods are only supposed to be moderating within their given forum sections (Cinnamon for RO1, Sushi for RO2, etc.) during their modding routine, given the backlash of "you're an RO2 mod" and whatnot.

 

 

 

Honestly, the real blame here lies on the administrators of these forums (Oda, Camp, etc.) putting Volunteer Mods into a user group that has global mod powers, instead of placing them into separate user groups with mod powers only granted to specific sections. I've used IPB as an admin before, it is easy to make individual user groups that only have mod powers in certain places and then assign mods to those groups as appropriate. Dumping mods into a user group with global moderation permissions when they're not supposed to exercise those powers outside of their given areas (except in the case of emergencies?) is lazy.

 

bKKViKa.png

 

Look at this and tell me with a straight face that you think they can manage permissions effectively.


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#35 ZeroTigress

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:01 PM

Thats not how it was done, I can testify to that. Game history, post history and random interviews with (in recent years) the established mods as to if they know much about X person in Y game. I don't know how much more you could do.


That may be how it's done in the RO section, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the other game sections and it's that problem that's led to us having to deal with those mods from other sections. I was under the impression that every new mod that comes on board is shown the guidelines that you and the past mods have come up with, but that doesn't seem to be the case or else the mod abuse wouldn't be an issue. When someone is given mod powers and that person is someone that has always wanted mod powers, that's an instant red flag to reevaluate a potential mod candidate. A better candidate wouldn't be happy to take the job but takes it anyways knowing full well the stress and responsibility it entails.
 

Honestly, the real blame here lies on the administrators of these forums (Oda, Camp, etc.) putting Volunteer Mods into a user group that has global mod powers, instead of placing them into separate user groups with mod powers only granted to specific sections. I've used IPB as an admin before, it is easy to make individual user groups that only have mod powers in certain places and then assign mods to those groups as appropriate. Dumping mods into a user group with global moderation permissions when they're not supposed to exercise those powers outside of their given areas (except in the case of emergencies?) is lazy.


I can understand why they did that because sometimes things flare up in a community and the mods assigned to that section are not on duty to do crowd control so I can appreciate mods from other sections jumping in to do something. I just want the complete wipe of the VMod accounts and bring back transparency to the VMod program so that they'd be more inclined to not go on a power trip and be held accountable for their actions.
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#36 schia

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:03 PM

The perverted threads are over, schia !! u__u

 

They'd be all over....... ok yea i forgot where i was going.

 

But now i'm actually motivated to pick up my pencil and start drawing again.  :p_devil: :p_devil: :p_devil:


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#37 Xellie

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:05 PM

And I don't disagree, I've often ranted at you instead of on the forums because we've shared a mutual respect in that aspect.  Some just have to acquire that thicker skin over time. However, there is a difference between giving and receiving stress, and purposely just hating on a mod in a random thread even if they don't even have anything to do with it is kinda low.  Some of these issues just can't be crowd sourced, its like me trying to address some of the taboo issues with Classic we always talk about, sometimes its just not appropriate for me to be the one dealing strictly with it, making recommendations is one thing.  Its like one time someone suggested having a community review panel of mods and its like...you'd be right back at the same issues because its just a title, not a full fledged job with real consequences.

 

Trolls be trolls. Mods gonna have to learn to laugh and deal with it to an extent. It's part of the job.

 

regarding appropriateness tho; I highly disagree with the label of "inappropriate" being applied because a section of the community decided to troll to get their way and were rewarded for their behaviour.

 

I don't know how much there is to this, but sometimes the mods appear to be more "in the know" with information than regular users, which I dislike greatly. (yup, hypocritical, sue me) and that makes it seem to be more of a job than just moderation.
 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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#38 schia

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:09 PM

Draw me pls ! o:

 

NSFW picture of my Gypsy. THANKS TENSHI <3

 

i've already got a picture i'm working on, i'm currently in the sketch phase.  Its been a little over a year since i last did some serious drawing so i'll need a bit of a warm up


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#39 Cinquine

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:12 PM

i've already got a picture i'm working on, i'm currently in the sketch phase.  Its been a little over a year since i last did some serious drawing so i'll need a bit of a warm up

 

you should make a creative contraptions thread. it's like the warm fuzzy side of the forums. much nicer than community chat.

 

also this is pretty off topic lmao whoops


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#40 Xellie

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:14 PM

THANKS FOR THE IMAGE CINQUINE


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#41 Inubashiri

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:15 PM

bKKViKa.png

 

Look at this and tell me with a straight face that you think they can manage permissions effectively.

 

It was done by Calanor, not sure who does it now.  When the Anon system came into place they wanted those folks to manage all forums globally which wasn't the case when those guidelines were wrote.  We didn't play in each other's sandboxes.  Even though some of us have that power we never use it out of respect unless its just an urgent issue that has no business on here but if its a game issue it should default to the mod that plays that game or game(s).  I think most of those groups are just ones left over and then new ones were made and added to X user.

 

To address "mod abuse" not all times is that the case, 2 or 3 out of 4 times its basically the user being abusive in the first place and refuses to acknowledge they are the problem or recognize authority and needs a cooloff period, but this is a product of the internet more than anything.


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#42 ZeroTigress

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:27 PM

To address "mod abuse" not all times is that the case, 2 or 3 out of 4 times its basically the user being abusive in the first place and refuses to acknowledge they are the problem or recognize authority and needs a cooloff period, but this is a product of the internet more than anything.


Abrasive users comes with the territory of being a mod. You'd also deal with the same crap in any kind of job whether it's food service, retail, etc. so basically if you don't know how to deal with other human beings in a professional manner, you shouldn't be a mod.
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#43 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:30 PM

It was done by Calanor, not sure who does it now.  When the Anon system came into place they wanted those folks to manage all forums globally which wasn't the case when those guidelines were wrote.  We didn't play in each other's sandboxes.  Even though some of us have that power we never use it out of respect unless its just an urgent issue that has no business on here but if its a game issue it should default to the mod that plays that game or game(s).  I think most of those groups are just ones left over and then new ones were made and added to X user.

 

To address "mod abuse" not all times is that the case, 2 or 3 out of 4 times its basically the user being abusive in the first place and refuses to acknowledge they are the problem or recognize authority and needs a cooloff period, but this is a product of the internet more than anything.

 

Sounds like a lot of things need to be overhauled.

 

Not saying that these toxic users (myself occasionally) are in the right and the mods are overreaching. In many cases, like you said, the situation is a product of the user. The issue is really just a few mods that, through their behaviour, have highlighted what's wrong with the system and how it could be improved ;p

 

I really appreciate you being so candid about what's going on behind the scenes and your feelings RE the current system. It's nice to know that someone cares XD


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#44 ZeroTigress

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:38 PM

Sounds like a lot of things need to be overhauled.
 
Not saying that these toxic users (myself occasionally) are in the right and the mods are overreaching. In many cases, like you said, the situation is a product of the user. The issue is really just a few mods that, through their behaviour, have highlighted what's wrong with the system and how it could be improved ;p
 
I really appreciate you being so candid about what's going on behind the scenes and your feelings RE the current system. It's nice to know that someone cares XD


I was honestly expecting this thread to be deleted in a matter of minutes, but it's good that it's sparked a sincere discussion about a broken system that needs to be fixed (aside from the off-topic conversation that needs to leave the thread *ahem*).
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#45 Cinquine

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 09:02 PM

I was honestly expecting this thread to be deleted in a matter of minutes, but it's good that it's sparked a sincere discussion about a broken system that needs to be fixed (aside from the off-topic conversation that needs to leave the thread *ahem*).

 

I just self-modded, where is my cookie?


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#46 ZeroTigress

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 09:07 PM

Curious, what do the current VMods feel about the removal of VMod accounts? If we're going to take the community's considerations into account, VMs should voice their side of the story as well.
 

I just self-modded, where is my cookie?


I do not recall an agreement involving baked goods.
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#47 kingarthur6687

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 09:12 PM

I can understand why they did that because sometimes things flare up in a community and the mods assigned to that section are not on duty to do crowd control so I can appreciate mods from other sections jumping in to do something. I just want the complete wipe of the VMod accounts and bring back transparency to the VMod program so that they'd be more inclined to not go on a power trip and be held accountable for their actions.

 

Most of the bigger forums I've frequented in the past had distinct "Moderators" and "Global Moderators". Moderators were numerous and had mod authority in specific sections of the forums tailored to their specialty, Global Moderators were less numerous but held mod authority and jurisdiction across the entire forums (hence "global") and dealt with stuff that normal Moderators couldn't handle practically.

 

As part of overhauling the VM system, perhaps this divided tiering can be implemented to place highly trusted/respected individuals with global mod authorities for emergencies and harder-than-usual situations, and the current VMs have their mod powers reduced to specific sections to prevent cases like the one that prompted this thread.


Edited by kingarthur6687, 04 April 2015 - 09:13 PM.

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#48 bloodyrascal

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 09:15 PM

I do not know the real identity of the moderators.

But I know one thing that revealing the identity of moderators might lead to personal attacks and biased attitude of players towards them.

Secondly, I think moderators should be re-briefed about their powers. I know there have been some instances where a moderator's action has been unwarranted. Such things lead to the displeasure of the community, which is not good. As they say, 'With great powers comes greater responsibilities'. So, I agree with ZeroT, when she says that people consider the moderators as the representatives of WP.

The line of displeasure between the moderator and players exists because of the rampant censorship, because unlike earlier, these days there's too much interference by the moderators, which is what is irking many players.

Though, I do not mean that the moderators should not do their duty with same liberty, without the fear of a community outrage, but only when a moderator firmly believes in his/her actions and that the action was necessary to avoid any kind of disturbances in the community.

I wish goodluck to the moderators and I hope that this issue gets resolved in the favour of goodwill of the community.

Edited by bloodyrascal, 04 April 2015 - 09:20 PM.

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#49 Cinquine

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 09:21 PM

They don't have to reveal themselves  if they don't want to, if it ever came to that. They could always choose to step down instead. 

 

Though I really doubt they will change the VMod system.


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#50 ZeroTigress

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 09:27 PM

I do not know the real identity of the moderators.

But I know one thing that revealing the identity of a moderator might lead to personal attacks and biased attitude of players towards them.


Except VMods still get attacked and are viewed as biased even on their VMod accounts anyways so what does it matter what account they use if the end result is the same? At least with their account simply being labeled as a VMod instead of being given an anonymous VMod account, the gravity of the position would hit them harder since they would be held more accountable than they would with an anonymous VMod account.
 

Secondly, I think moderators should be re-briefed about their powers. I know there have been some instances where a moderator's action has been unwarranted. Such things lead to the displeasure of the community, which is not good. As they say, 'With great powers comes greater responsibilities'. So, I agree with ZeroT, when she says that people consider the moderators as the representatives of WP.

The line of displeasure between the moderator and players exists because of the rampant censorship, because unlike earlier, these days there's too much interference by the moderators, which is what is irking many players.

Though, I do not mean that the moderators should not do their duty with same liberty, without the fear of a community outrage, but only when a moderator firmly believes in his/her actions and that the action was necessary to avoid any kind of disturbances in the community.


The main issue at hand with the VM program is that there is little to no balance of power. Someone who is granted mod powers is freely able to abuse those powers unchecked because, like people have said earlier in the thread, the CMs don't have time to discipline the VMs that they themselves brought on to mod the forums.
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