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[We need Feedback] Class Balancing - Twins - Summoners - Invoker


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#1 Popcorn

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 10:23 AM

Hello Dragon Saga Community,

 

again we need your feedback about class balancing.

 

Members of the community keep telling us that there are some problems with this classes - especially with the Dragokin classes - at least these are the ones who comes up the most.

 

What is going wrong with these classes? Why are they so overpowered - or some call it "broken"? What are your suggestions what we can do about this to make the more fair without breaking them completely for PvP and PvE. 

 

As for the Invoker - we heard that the Magnet Skill is a problem in PvP because of it's short cooldown duration. If this is fact, would you mind to make the cooldown duration a bit longer (suggestions were 3 seconds longer)?

 

To sum this up in short form:

 

- What can we do to make the Dragokin classes more fair for everyone (PvP and PvE wise)? 

- Would you mind to make the cooldown duration of the Invoker's Magnet Skill 3 seconds longer?

 

Opinions please! And please keep this topic clean. Means, please refrain from insulting, arguing and trolling. Thank you!

 

Please keep in mind that we maybe can't implement every good change you suggest due to our current limitations.

 

 


Edited by VModPopcorn, 28 May 2015 - 10:55 AM.

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#2 Homurasan

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 10:38 AM

- Would you mind to make the duration of the Invoker's Magnet Skill 3 seconds longer?

 

Ehm, please don't ? I believe you meant "cooldown" instead of "duration".


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#3 Popcorn

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 10:56 AM

Ehm, please don't ? I believe you meant "cooldown" instead of "duration".

 

I meant cooldown duration ;) Thanks for letting me know about that mistake. I corrected it.


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#4 StormHaven

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 11:57 AM

 Fighter Issues: Fighter's main source of attacking,the Twin, can not be killed, CCed, or even dealt with and can attack even if the main twin is Hard CC'd. The Fighter itself has way to much utility with the ability to have a 100% block rate up 100% of the time along with +150% moves speed buff that can be kept up 100% of the time and this is on top of Fighter's being the only class that has the ability to revive itself and others an infinite number of times in PvP.  Basicly Fighter's twins need to have some sort of consequence for the fighter once they get hit either give them hp and allow them to be killed and they respawn using the Time Reversal skill(They really should act more like the Ice Climbers in the Smash Bro series where the non-main one can be killed so their's risks to throwing them out there).

 

When it comes to FIghter's block rate all that needs to be down is making it so Power Weave just upgrades Weave and they aren't separate skills.

 

Invoker: the major issue with Invokers is the conjunction of Element Attack+ Double Shot/Diffusion Cannon and healing not have reduced power in PvP.


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#5 Rainnowx

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 12:20 PM

The way DragonKs. fight against monsters is fine; maybe too fine if we take it from a PvP-er's point of view.

 

 

 

Some of Twin's Skills' effect are almost the same as Knight's, but Knight's Spear Jab and Cross Cut "stuns" the enemy longer than Twin's Spin/Dragon/Slide/Infinite Kick; regarding how long is the enemy "OmGFtW" after the Skill's animation (I wouldn't want people to think wrong just with the first part).

 

[Childish opinion]

Spoiler

[Childish opinion 2]

Spoiler

If talking about making it more fair without any problem, I would imagine either DKick or SKick making anything fly like Dragon Upper; people then will have to try retaking themselves when falling down, unless they somehow keep on flying.

[EDIT: Now that I read StormH's point about Weaving Skills and the brother's problems... Ow anyway...]

 

 

As for Summoner... Well, although I don't often (and "basically") PvP, there's certainly something: that enemies should lose a percentage of their MP in a [*censored*] short interval is wrong. It's easily guessed that no matter who is trapped in there, from Warrior to Magician and even Summoner, they will completely run out of MP as fast as anyone else because of the percentage thing. This Skill should rather burn a given number of MP, as for how much, I'll let the real arena Kings deal with it.

Also:

_just how come Spike Wave and Mega Spike Wave aren't "bound"?

_how come Doomamik is "bound" to a spacebar Skill?

_shouldn't Cry of Life be "bound" to Stronger Summon rather than Mist's upgrade?

 

 

 

I would think DragonK. are balanced in any way. The only problem is that they got so many Skills so they can use more tricks against anything.


Edited by Rainnowx, 28 May 2015 - 12:48 PM.

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#6 Coolsam

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 12:48 PM

Invoker and Summoner: To me, there's currently two major problems with them. Chain Combo X-spam + Elements. Invoker has Diffusion Cannon or Double Shot + Elements and decent attack speed. Summoner has Smar Shot + Elements and decent attack speed. With high enough element attack both of these can melt classes hp bars and with chain combos providing flinching to their x-attacks and giving them super armor once caught you take incredible amounts of damage.

 

Invoker: Healing having no PvP restriction can make a decently-geared Invoker damn-near immortal unless ganged and freeze-locked by several players. Magnet itself really just needs a slight cooldown increase due to how often it can be casted in a short duration.

 

Summoner: Damage Reflection. Losing 75-100% of your health because of reflection instantaneously.

 

Twin: Stormhaven pretty much hit the nail on the head. Infinite HP Meathshield that can be insta-warped back to the twin to prevent itself from getting flinch locked, spammable revive, multiple forms of 100% block with very low cooldowns and among the highest movement speed in the game.


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#7 Apocryphos

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 02:24 PM

Invoker there is a lot more than just magnet with invoker,

Barbarian & Witches curse are completely client sided it doesn't matter where the enemy is as long as the priest actually catches them on his/her client it will register in the server as an actual catch despite the opponent being elsewhere entirely.

Then their actual cooldown's vs duration's

Witches curse is beyond stupid, 25 second duration and 20 second cooldown, along side with other statuses such as, item restriction, skill restriction, and dash restriction. perfect for stalling another barbarian.

Quagmire has the same cooldown as duration.

TLDR: Invokers is a class promotes lagging for better game play.Only 1/4 of the story on priest haven't mentioned healing, flinch locking, or super armor breaking.

 

Jumeaux- this class is fun to fight if they didn't have two skills called wheel of fortune and ghost fighter.

Breath Control - it allows power fist locks :/ not the funnest way to die, and it also allows 90%+ block rate.

Ghost Fighter - It's hit scan is client sided, meaning when they cast it and you're in range whether you run out of range or not it will catch you.

TLDR: The immortal melee class.

 

Earth Master - the epitome of stupid this class with 1 skill ,Spirits Counter Attack, make all melee match-ups wins. Then against all other range there's dark knight and x-spam smart shot.

Spirit Counter Attack - reflects melee extremely lethal against all melee classes. Except Twin's move since twin is immortal.

TLDR: 2nd Best character ever.

 

 

Edited by Apocryphos, 28 May 2015 - 02:35 PM.

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#8 stiffyliffyriffy

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 02:47 PM

100% instant block is unfair. block was taken away from ninjas and paladin classes I think its fair if you take away block from fighters as well.

 

just to regurgitate what has already been said I believe that invokers should have a longer cool down duration time.


Edited by stiffyliffyriffy, 28 May 2015 - 02:48 PM.

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#9 UraharaStore

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 02:49 PM

100% instant block is unfair. block was taken away from ninjas and paladin classes I think its fair if you take away block from fighters as well.

 

just to regurgitate what has already been said I believe that invokers should have a longer cool down duration time.

I do agree with u for the twins part. 


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#10 SoulSight

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 02:52 PM

Invoker : Restrict healing skill except Slow heal, increase cooldown of magnet, barbarian, witch's curse.

Earth Master : Decrease the effect of Spirit counterattack, decrease the effect of Mana burn.

Jumenux : Same with StormHaven's idea


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#11 ohsnap

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 03:03 PM

One thing that can be changed about twins giving power weave and weave share cooldowns. Ghost Fighter needs a decrease in range also speaking of server side registration skills I believe this is also one of them. Fighters are also insanely mobile with 2 different weaves and the 200% flat movement speed buff. Rebound should also be disabled in pvp giving a character 2 lives is just too overpowered. Also fighters shouldn't be able to attack when they are cc'd if the twin is unaffected by the crowd control skill it is still able to attack. 

 

Invokers putting a huge cooldown on magnet would be a good fix for magnet locks ofc it doesn't stop invokers from stacking up in one side and using it ofc it's gonna take a good amount of coordination. Besides the strength of barbarian and witch's curse I like to bring up the fact that these skills are unpunishable for how effective they are in pvp. I believe these two skills have animation cancels and tactically you can just jump around until the cooldown is up and just try again till you make the catch. It is almost completely unavoidable. Also allowing a class to sustain, tank damage and do lots of damage really no point of playing any other class. 

 

Summoners are just absolutely stupid in the current state. Insane amounts of damage and insane amounts of crowd control I can literally walk in within 5 inches of a summoner and die before I can land a hit on them. Not to mention giving them reflect might as well run away from them rather than facing them head on. You just can't get to them without losing at least 50% of your hp. 

 

BTW an attack speed cap to 200% or lower would probably help in decreasing the high dps of summoners, destroyers and invokers and prevent flinch locking. 


Edited by ohsnap, 28 May 2015 - 03:06 PM.

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#12 Apocryphos

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 03:12 PM

On a side note why is everyone against higher tier element cards? Other than people's farming being thrown out the window *I've done my fair share of element farming tyvm as bandwagon leader of destroyer*

Let me list out stuff that would happen in 75+ PvP, Resistance is % reduction 10k=50% 20k= 100%

- 10*'s would allow players to resist elements completely.Meaning no more death by x-spam.

- 10* will make elemental elga weapon's obsolete, making PoS weapons the new meta.

- Overall Damage of x-spamming classes reduced, classes with high % attack and magic attack will have stronger hits

- 10* resistance cards reduce more than 10* attack cards can dish out damage.

- With the exception of demolition element,

TLDR: It actually balances the game out.

 

Just saying this is proposition gimme some actual proof that it'll be game breaking.


Edited by Apocryphos, 28 May 2015 - 03:37 PM.

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#13 Rossbach

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 03:19 PM

-removed-


Edited by Rossbach, 28 May 2015 - 06:03 PM.

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#14 ohsnap

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 03:32 PM

On a side note why is everyone against higher tier element cards? Other than people's farming being thrown out the window *I've done my fair share of element farming tyvm as bandwagon leader of destroyer*

Let me list out stuff that would happen in 75+ PvP, Resistance is % reduction 10k=50% 20k= 100%

- 10*'s would allow players to resist elements completely.Meaning no more death by x-spam.

- 10* will make elemental elga weapon's obsolete, making PoS weapons the new meta.

- Overall Damage of x-spamming classes reduced, classes with high % attack and magic attack will have.

- 10* resistance cards reduce more than 10* attack cards can dish out damage.

- With the exception of demolition element,

TLDR: It actually balances the game out.

 

Just saying this is proposition gimme some actual proof that it'll be game breaking.

20k resist does not equate to 100% reduction. A summoner with around 6k+ total element atk still hits for 1k damage per hit on 20k resist. You couldn't imagine how many 6* resists this person has farmed to come by this much resist. Bringing these 10*s in wouldn't really change the state elements are in now just higher numbers. 


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#15 UraharaStore

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 03:42 PM

Life is not fair :D even games.

 


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#16 Coolsam

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 03:42 PM

20k resist does not equate to 100% reduction. A summoner with around 6k+ total element atk still hits for 1k damage per hit on 20k resist. You couldn't imagine how many 6* resists this person has farmed to come by this much resist. Bringing these 10*s in wouldn't really change the state elements are in now just higher numbers. 

 

Gotta agree with ohsnap here. Elements itself needs a look at and a possible rework before we can introduce the bigger numbers through 10* cards.


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#17 noxis

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:15 PM

there are a multitude of issues surrounding many classes, some people will nitpick on classes they dislike for players they dislike. having played all classes to a considerable degree, i believe there are some skills worth focusing on before moving on to minor and less problematic issues.

 

twins: one of the biggest issues surrounding them in pvp is their ability to weave and power weave within a very short duration. this allows them to escape virtually any and all attacks while still being able to attack enemies with their twin counterpart. they are especially resistant to DoT's and status inflicting skills that are activated upon inflicting damage (blizzard is an example).

 

so in short: lengthen weave and power weave cooldowns by 2-5 seconds which would limit weave and power weave being used in tandem.

 

summoners: their damage reflect is a major cause of concern. this will instantaneously kill certain classes. many end game summoners do not use it since it is genuinely broken.

 

invoker: an increase in magnet duration is necessary. 3 seconds is a good balance of the awakening and mp cost. 

 
 
--
 
things to remember:
 
client sided issues cannot be resolved due to players varying internet connections. there will always be laggers.
 
x spamming isn't the issue. people who choose not to farm elements and then complain about elements being held for those that do farm is an issue.
 
players making suggestions for classes that they have virtually no experience in is an issue.
 
there is no nerf for a player's ability in pvp. skilled players will win.
 
resistance overpowers element attacks with POS. invokers get nerfed since their x spam is reduced by 70% in all pvp modes. against pos and decent resistance cards, their element damage in pvp is laughable. 
they cannot compete in terms of physical attacking classes in terms of stacking element damage. increasing cooldowns on a ground locked class is debatable, especially when people are also requesting x spam nerfs and heal nerfs. are you expecting the class to run around with no way of fighting and taking hits to depreciate their armor durability? hilarious.
 
invokers are not difficult to play, but they are extremely difficult to master. 
 
summoners x spam requires a lot of attack speed stacking. they are forced to remain stationary, being susceptible to attacks and DoTs. 
 
healing in pvp does need a rework. however, any class at this point has the ability to be immortal. stacking resistance with pos + high hp, any class can capsule and cake. 
 
 
 
 
 

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#18 sean718

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:28 PM

 

- Would you mind to make the cooldown duration of the Invoker's Magnet Skill 3 seconds longer?

 

 

This is good.

 

 

there is no nerf for a player's ability in pvp. skilled players will win.
 

 

This is true.


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#19 shanada

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:47 PM

twin fighters - the 2nd twin can be dealt with if you ever pvped a twin you can knock it down with a lot of skills like shoot down, daggers, raising arrow, bear spin, etc...twins rebound skill that revive them has a 7min cool down and can be revive only if killed with in the time limit of 50secs at lvl 5. Twin fighters can still atk even if frozen but cannot atk if stun frogged or both launch at once. You cant not keep 100% speed of light buff on 100% of the time cause it depends a lot on how the players lagg is and how good the player is at timming the cancel of the skill i know half twin players dont even know how to cancel so its not the skill its the player OK. If the GMs nerf the twin class to allow the 2nd twin to be killed you might as well just remove the Twin fighter class cause whats the point if you cant use your skills. Twin fighter relys a lot on the 2nd twin cause every single skill is used on the 2nd twin. Moving on to Power fist - power fist cant not be used 2 time in a row if you have lvl 5 breath control which lowers all cool down of skills by 1.5sec, the 2nd power fist you try to use if you try to lock after just 1 skill like infinite kicking will result in a failed power fist which just charges up but doesnt activate. For you to perform a lock with breath control power fist you would have to use a full combo then reuse a power fist to lock FYI a lot of pple know how to get out before you even finish a full combo. Moving on to Weave and power weave - Weave is not a passive block it needs to be activated which is why warpportal didnt nerf it after pally and ninjas block got nerf a good reason enough? Then on to how weave and power weave works. The skill Weave only protects the main twin for 1sec, Power weave protects both the main and 2nd twin for 1sec also. If you really want to nerf Weave and power weave just add half damage of block atks while in weave to the skill and not just completely remove the skill effect of block Cause again its not a passive block its an active skill. Its not like pallys passive where you can lvl 10 parry and block 99% of incoming damage weave cant not be upgraded to increase duration of the skill its just 1 sec still.


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#20 shanada

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:52 PM

Also like to add twin fighter class when NET by spiders and pathfinder class Twins can not move at all and the range of the 2nd twin is restricted to that of the range of where you the main twin is standing

 


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#21 shanada

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:57 PM

Summoners - i mean come on this class nerf LOL its the hardest class to stack as in SKILL POINTS for you to get any good skill you gotta buy a ton of skill point scrolls without you are very limited to anything i mean come on only way is to wait for the GMs to release Skill point scrolls in the cash shop. Even then thats a lot of cash you gotta spend just for skill points 


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#22 shanada

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 05:00 PM

Invoker - Of course increase Cool down of 4th class awaking skill Magnet has the lowest cool down outta all classes and most useful


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#23 Apocryphos

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 05:01 PM

20k resist does not equate to 100% reduction. A summoner with around 6k+ total element atk still hits for 1k damage per hit on 20k resist. You couldn't imagine how many 6* resists this person has farmed to come by this much resist. Bringing these 10*s in wouldn't really change the state elements are in now just higher numbers. 

 

well 100% isn't possible cause there is a curved cap ,are you sure that's not the raw power of the summoners x-spam i believe they do not have an x-spam reduction like priests. Summoners have a the highest overall attack and magic attack average after all. passive gives like 6k matk w/o solars.


Edited by Apocryphos, 28 May 2015 - 05:12 PM.

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#24 Coolsam

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 05:16 PM

well 100% isn't possible cause there is a curved cap ,are you sure that's not the raw power of the summoners x-spam i believe they do not have an x-spam reduction like priests. Summoners have a the highest overall attack and magic attack average after all. passive gives like 6k matk w/o solars.

 

Come to think of it we never had any confirmation of an x-spam power reduction. Or if any even exist. Definitely something to consider when developers change.


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#25 LinkKirby

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 05:49 PM

Everyone asking for Invoker x-spam nerfs needs to remember that Invokers have nothing else they can use. Rain of Fire, Spark Rock, and Chain Lightning are all terrible at dealing damage, so reducing x-spam damage has a much worse effect on Invoker than reducing the damage of one skill would have on another class.

 

Even so, the amount of damage that elements add per hit seems to be the problem. Does element damage receive the 70% damage penalty while x-spamming in PvP? That's something that should be looked into.

 

A 3 second increase in Magnet cooldown combined with a decreased MP and awakening gauge cost seems fair.

 

Witch's Curse has already been nerfed in the past, but the duration is so long that if you catch someone with it, you can just stand there and wait for Barbarian/Magnet/Spark Rock to finish their cooldown so you can use them again to extend the combo. Instead of 16s duration and 20s cooldown, I think a 5s duration and 10s cooldown would work better. It still serves the same purpose but the person who is caught isn't helpless for such a long time, and the Invoker can't use it to stall for time.


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