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[We need Feedback] Class Balancing - Twins - Summoners - Invoker


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#51 Infin1te

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 01:35 PM

Like it was stated in one of the posts, Twin's problem is weave and power weave low cooldown which allows them to be almost spammable with some timing. Easiest way to fix this is to increase cooldown to 3-5 seconds each. This still allows the use of the skill in PvE because I'm pretty sure you do not need 100% block in PvE as much even if your skill level isn't so high as all bosses have so much delay between their attacks. In PvP, this makes the user think twice before using the skill. Having them shared cooldown like some suggested makes Power weave pretty much an upgraded version of weave, why bother using the other if one is superior in every way in any situation.

 

For Summoner's, a major problem for them is their reflection skill on summons which renders 50% of the classes helpless against them. Pretty sure this skill isn't needed at all in PvE. As the summons are always around the Summoner, classes that take full reflection damage cannot attack the Summoner without taking damage themselves which the reflected damage is always higher as summons take PvE damage while the Summoner takes PvP damage.

 

Suggest a lower reflection rate such as 10-20% reflection rate at 50% of the damage taken? Or even set it like Meteor Earrings where it's 20% reflect rate for a fixed amount of damage. 

 

As for their x-spam's, what makes their x-spams along with other x-spam classes so op is the chain combo flinching which almost allows for a lock with high enough atkspd. I believe only Summoner's class is able to hold opponents still due to x-spam flinching. Invokers and Destroyers cannot achieve the same flinch lock to the same degree. 50% reduction in flinching is a suggestion or even removing the flinch all together. Without flinch, even Summoner's OP x-spam isn't too much of a threat........

 

For Invoker's magnet, an increase in cooldown would be the easiest fix, although 3 seconds sounds a bit short. I think the cooldown is not what makes magnet so overpowered but the interval in which it pulls the opponents.

 

How about keeping the cooldown time but increasing the interval in which it pulls the target? In PvE aspect, once the mobs are pulled, they are stuck there so it doesn't matter. In PvP aspect, usually a barb or some sort of stun/freeze/crowd-control skill is coming after the first pull so increasing the pull interval will actually allow opponents a chance to escape and does not affect the invoker's combo/kill-ability too much. Magnet actually has a pretty long animation cast time which makes it avoidable unless the opponent is caught off guard or is unskilled in dealing with magnet.

 

Suggest an increase in 0.5 seconds to 1 second increase in the pull interval. This still allows the skill to do what it's suppose to do but allows that slight chance for the opponent to escape.


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#52 ivey558

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 02:12 PM

[...] How about keeping the cooldown time but increasing the interval in which it pulls the target? In PvE aspect, once the mobs are pulled, they are stuck there so it doesn't matter. In PvP aspect, usually a barb or some sort of stun/freeze/crowd-control skill is coming after the first pull so increasing the pull interval will actually allow opponents a chance to escape and does not affect the invoker's combo/kill-ability too much. Magnet actually has a pretty long animation cast time which makes it avoidable unless the opponent is caught off guard or is unskilled in dealing with magnet.

 

Suggest an increase in 0.5 seconds to 1 second increase in the pull interval. This still allows the skill to do what it's suppose to do but allows that slight chance for the opponent to escape.

 

Well, from what you're saying here one could safely assume that a magnet is inescapable at its current state. There are ways to escape it, easily. Just ask some of the top PVPers or BSQers. To list a few, for mages and invokers just teleport, for destroyers and pathfinders just anti air shot or jump attack your way out, for myrmidons just spin yourself out, for twins, well, weave. 


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#53 Infin1te

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 02:17 PM

Well, from what you're saying here one could safely assume that a magnet is inescapable at its current state. There are ways to escape it, easily. Just ask some of the top PVPers or BSQers. To list a few, for mages and invokers just teleport, for destroyers and pathfinders just anti air shot or jump attack your way out, for myrmidons just spin yourself out, for twins, well, weave. 

 

Then everyone should stop complaining about magnet. Certainly if escaping one magnet is so easy, escaping every other following after should be too. Keep in mind the top Pvpers makes up only 2-5% of the population. Plus it's only a suggestion and an alternative perspective to look at since no one else mentioned it.


Edited by Infin1te, 29 May 2015 - 02:28 PM.

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#54 Agitodesu

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 02:54 PM

I tend to abuse ghost fighter until my opponent finds a way to counter it (meant in a good way so they get a grasp and get some reflexes). In my opinion ghost fighter has high risk and high reward. One trick pony till they find out how to stop it. Its almost like a power fist along with x spamming except it has catching potential.

 

Ghost fighter against:

Summoner->rolling stone, almost instant K.O for the twins that is.

Twin->Double weave into infi-kick good way to catch them and start a combo.

Invoker->do not even bother running(Twins don't chase you, you chase twins), Barbarian/witch, and start a combo like normal.

Sorcerer->Blizzard and afk inside. Then combo them. Fire emblem works well too before they teleport to you.

Sentinels-> Almost any skills really...Tesla and put any traps and afk inside.

Destroyers-> Very hard but land a flash bang during the cast. Hopefully you land it. Or you can send out the auto shot system and stand inside.

Overlord->Twins are a bully try not to pvp them. Stumblebum only if they cast the fusion block skill. Does not work against weaves. Incomming/i'm gone bear works but rarely.

Paladin->Sheildbash the fusion block/ Chainsheild->spin it bear/shouldertackle. Then proceed to tornado and hope you kill them.

Savage->Moonwalk/Exit.

Ninja->Use Hypnotizer before the twins finish its cast time.

 

 

I may have not mentioned other skills and combos you can pull off to make ghostfighter their worst mistake, but I am not good at pvp so this might not be as helpful for those who are anti-ghostfighter in general.

 

Or just stack movement speed and outrun ghostfighter. For me its really funny to see the moment my ghostfighter animation combos them only to hit nothing.

But the thing about ghostfighter is you can bluff it to make the opponent use a skill.

You do not see high skilled players ever use ghostfighter, It is really risky and the lack of skill points make it so that ghost fighter not an option. (Unless you have the skill points to do so)

But for low leveled players ghostfighter might be a problem. It is pretty decent in both pve and pvp. Makes f7s easier with powerfist and ghostfighter to get a few extra hits on monsters.

 

 

As for weave I rarely use it in pvp or pve so feel free to nerf that.

Again i'm not too experienced with these things so do not take this so seriously  :Emo_19:

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Agitodesu, 29 May 2015 - 02:56 PM.

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#55 LazeZH

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 03:20 PM

Just a wild idea, how about a cap for attack speed?

It is kind of unfair that it's the one good dps stat that doesn't have a cap and only three classes really benefit from it. Of course a revamp of the stat balance overall is needed at some point, but as for now...

In pve they wouldn't deathlock you with chain combo spam and the power gap in pve would be lessened.


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#56 Agitodesu

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 03:23 PM

End game builds need to be taken into account when factoring in nerfs or improvements. A fully stacked invoker with 6* attack cards equipped on the appropriate sockets will have a hard time against any opponent that has invested some time on stacking their resistances. With an invokers x spam almost being purely element attack based, they are prone to drastic reductions against players who have high resistances. An invokers x spam is reduced by 70% (mattk only) after 10 consecutive hits. This means that they cannot take advantage of critical rate and critical damage in pvp like other classes can. This also means that equipping solar rings for pvp would be virtually fruitless, save for hp restore and buffing their element attack boosts from 6* cards and 3 piece element accessories.

 

The problem is not the x spam or the element, the problem is the lack of players fulfilling criteria to compete against end game players who have invested their time as such.

 

In lower level pvp, stacking element attack and +20 weapons are rampant and there are no POS sets to help with resistance stacking. This doesn't change the fact that they are the most crowded BSQs on the server. Participation is extremely high when comparing other BSQs of varying levels. This might be explained by the simple and easy-to-meet stacking threshold.

 

Attack speed is already capped by usable equipment. Introducing a forced cap on it to deter x spamming would be futile. x spam is simply more than just attack speed.

 

 

 

 

There would be an astronomical difference in PVE. I believe the korean devs noticed that.

Read this post and why capping atk speed wouldn't be very effective.


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#57 LazeZH

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 04:26 PM

Oh missed that post.

Still.. an attack speed cap would help the balance as I see it. Hindering flinch locking and reducing the difference in dps between classes against something like elga.

Pvp damage calculation is another issue. I've never been endgame, but it seems to have been a mess for a long time. First the difference in defence and damage reduction contra attack made damage too little. Then elements came to pierce that, but those stats have gotten completely wild and seem to be all that endgame pvp is about now... 

 

You could say all stats are capped by equipment, but that doesn't solve anything...

All stats should be balanced by equipment, yea. The stat caps sucks and limits way too much. It takes more work fixing that, though.  

 

Aspd is an uncapped dps stat with flinch and superarmour that only three classes really benefit from. Did I misunderstand something, cause I don't see how a cap could make it worse.


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#58 noxis

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 04:47 PM

Oh missed that post.

Still.. an attack speed cap would help the balance as I see it. Hindering flinch locking and reducing the difference in dps between classes against something like elga.

Pvp damage calculation is another issue. I've never been endgame, but it seems to have been a mess for a long time. First the difference in defence and damage reduction contra attack made damage too little. Then elements came to pierce that, but those stats have gotten completely wild and seem to be all that endgame pvp is about now... 

 

You could say all stats are capped by equipment, but that doesn't solve anything...

All stats should be balanced by equipment, yea. The stat caps sucks and limits way too much. It takes more work fixing that, though.  

 

Aspd is an uncapped dps stat with flinch and superarmour that only three classes really benefit from. Did I misunderstand something, cause I don't see how a cap could make it worse.

 

attack speed cannot be capped even if it were implemented. x spam speed is dependent on computer specs and internet connection as well as a few other factors. attack speed% as a stat has little to do with it after a certain point. 

 

without knowledge of these factors, in theory, capping attack speed would work. unfortunately, these are facts that cannot be changed by any party. 

 

when chain combo x spam was introduced, the community demanded a fix to x spam to revert it. the toggle was then introduced shortly after allowing players to alternate between regular and chain combo x attacks as they please. personally, i don't think many players would find it appealing.


Edited by noxis, 29 May 2015 - 04:48 PM.

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#59 Apocryphos

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 04:57 PM

 

ideally, x spam chain combo flinch should be reworked since it can be taken to extreme levels by stacking attack speed. destroyers, summoners, and invokers are the primary holders of this attribute. there is nothing wrong with x spamming. it has it's pros and cons. but involving flinches that disrupt and halt movement and skill casting while you're being constantly hit is something that should be looked into. i honestly don't mind spammers. but the flinching coupled with it in pvp is another story. not to mention that it has super armor attributes while being executed. i would suggest greatly reducing or removing its flinching effect.

Not to mention super armor's are divided into two categories complete super armor being Impervion& Barricade and the rest are pseudo super armor just anti knockdown, knockback skills like certain chain combo's render pseudo super armor useless.


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witchs curse can be categorized as a locking skill, though not a good one since it's primary focus is to stall for time, be it for skill cool downs or regrouping. it's quite frustrating to cast witches curse only for someone on your team to come by and hit them immediately removing the effect. There are very few locking skills I'd say it's the best since locking is to prevent them from doing anything, the time immobilized by any single skill vs Witches Curse is none, its stalling purpose is just an added bonus

as for pallys and overlord locking to death taking a long time, that is dependent on gear. the fact of the matter is. they can lock and do so at a much easier stance with almost no cool down time management involved.
Giving the same gear to an invoker, they'll get the job faster despite them being the support class. Melee classes don't have to have cooldown management cause all melee classes are lag sensitive, require proper input management, cannot fend off other enemies w/o dropping the lock, and proper catching all classes have some sort of technique or passive to not get caught by a melee class but magic however no recovery what-so-ever.
sorcerers and priests have to take into account of cool down time management be successful.
Proper cooldown management is all a mage needs to maintain the combo no input from the receiving end
honestly, how many priests do you have troubling beating that nerfs should be taken to this extent that you are not seeing basic after effects of such proposals?

All of them in bsq , not many in friendly 1v1's

 

 

There are currently no reductions in damage for destroyers and summoners concerning x spam in PvP.

Destroyers don't need a x-spam nerf its easy to maintain a different z-axis than a destroyer. Summoners however need to be looked at especially with it's passives.

 

Progress is a fair argument in regards to anything in Dragon Saga. Grinded 15* Cerberus Solars/Stellas? Result of grinding and hard work, even in just buying it you had to get that gold somehow. The same is said about elements. If you grinded hundreds of thousands of gold or did 1,000 runs for those 6*'s, use them all you freaking want because you had to get them the hard way.

Progress is only a fair argument when there is something that's guaranteed, grinding for element cards however isn't really progress but a gamble. unless there is a guaranteed way to get the cards I don't see progress as being any argument whatsoever.

 

Invoker X-spam w/o elements has 0 damage. Since majority players pack 25-30k+ defense, even with solars a +20 staff isn't gonna help much even without the damage reduction.

Just wondering but the variety of what priests can do isn't limited to just x-spamming, remember chain lightning with spark rock or air juggling, its just x-spamming became the most efficient and safest way cause w/ elements there is no need to worry about the -70% after 10 consecutive hits.

What's the opinion on the X-spam w/ chain combo though? Both Invoker and Summoner can do mini-flinch locks if they can shoot fast enough. Summoner's case was especially terrifying as it's confirmed there's no damage reduction.

 

 

Just a wild idea, how about a cap for attack speed? It's already capped, fps won't exceed 60fps so there is a limit on how fast you can spam it. maintaining that speed is another story.

It is kind of unfair that it's the one good dps stat that doesn't have a cap and only three classes really benefit from it. Of course a revamp of the stat balance overall is needed at some point, but as for now...

In pve they wouldn't deathlock you with chain combo spam and the power gap in pve would be lessened.

 

I tend to abuse ghost fighter until my opponent finds a way to counter it (meant in a good way so they get a grasp and get some reflexes). In my opinion ghost fighter has high risk and high reward. One trick pony till they find out how to stop it. Its almost like a power fist along with x spamming except it has catching potential.

 

Ghost fighter can bait out the following just canceling the skill.

Summoner->rolling stone, almost instant K.O for the twins that is.

Twin->Double weave into infi-kick good way to catch them and start a combo.

Invoker->do not even bother running(Twins don't chase you, you chase twins), Barbarian/witch, and start a combo like normal.

Sorcerer->Blizzard and afk inside. Then combo them. Fire emblem works well too before they teleport to you.

Sentinels-> Almost any skills really...Tesla and put any traps and afk inside.

Destroyers-> Very hard but land a flash bang during the cast. Hopefully you land it. Or you can send out the auto shot system and stand inside.

Overlord->Twins are a bully try not to pvp them. Stumblebum only if they cast the fusion block skill. Does not work against weaves. Incomming/i'm gone bear works but rarely.

Paladin->Sheildbash the fusion block/ Chainsheild->spin it bear/shouldertackle. Then proceed to tornado and hope you kill them.

Savage->Moonwalk/Exit.

Ninja->Use Hypnotizer before the twins finish its cast time.

 

 

I may have not mentioned other skills and combos you can pull off to make ghostfighter their worst mistake, but I am not good at pvp so this might not be as helpful for those who are anti-ghostfighter in general.

 

Or just stack movement speed and outrun ghostfighter. For me its really funny to see the moment my ghostfighter animation combos them only to hit nothing. Can't out run ghost fighter if you're in range when its first initialized.

But the thing about ghostfighter is you can bluff it to make the opponent use a skill.Totally.

You do not see high skilled players ever use ghostfighter, It is really risky and the lack of skill points make it so that ghost fighter not an option. (Unless you have the skill points to do so) I see highly stacked players using it though against a real twin they can't compete.

But for low leveled players ghostfighter might be a problem. It is pretty decent in both pve and pvp. Makes f7s easier with powerfist and ghostfighter to get a few extra hits on monsters.

 

 

As for weave I rarely use it in pvp or pve so feel free to nerf that.

Again i'm not too experienced with these things so do not take this so seriously  :Emo_19:

Replies in bold.

On a side note I'd like to see a revamp in roar of victory pvp buff to include a variation of:

-Skill Modifiers

-Element Modifiers

-Heal Modifiers

-HP and MP Modifiers


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#60 Kristof3195

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 03:36 AM

Im playing a Twin fighter so I think the issue is definitely the blocks that people are mostly complaining about so remove both weaves im fine with that but leave the bubble in fusion its not that much utility since u got to fusion first and after can use it.

 

Second to have an invincible character is a bit OP agreed but think about it if someone just says make whole dmg the twin takes the other twin either thats crap , thats like damaging overlords bears and killing the overlord with it . Id suggest that whenever the twin takes damage 10-15% of the dmg is transfered to the character but without getting the effects like stun, freeze, electrified.

 

Third last suggestion remove rebound is just eh wasted points.

 

And now those were the nerfs but since u may suggest to do this ^ then there needs to be some art of compensation u cant stomp a class to the ground.

 

Twin ( Jumeaux) talent tree should be reworked since those skills are kinda useless it would be great if you d rework em somehow that they would be way more viable for pvp like Dragoons can implement awekening skills into their combos.

 

 

 

And btw who got a problem with ghost fighter to counter should better try another class since its easy to counter for an average player.


Edited by Kristof3195, 30 May 2015 - 03:36 AM.

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#61 MongoMoves

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 04:55 AM

Is there someone who mentioned about the Anti Air shot ? Its an op skill too. I agree on removing one weave skill of twin,.


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#62 Kristof3195

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 04:57 AM

Is there someone who mentioned about the Anti Air shot ? Its an op skill too. I agree on removing one weave skill of twin,.

Simple solution for AA after X ammounts of shots fired the spell will go on cooldown.


Edited by Kristof3195, 30 May 2015 - 04:59 AM.

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#63 Seenzoned

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 07:03 AM

Twin : Add more cd on weaving/pow weaving skill, add more cd on fussion

Summon : Reduce revenge buff or w/e counterspirit skill damage, reduce the summon HP, reduce xspam damage and flinch lock thingy

Invoker : Add more cd on magnet, increase mud aoe


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#64 qazwsx42753

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 07:18 AM

it's balanced, if want to neft them #9 i think delete these classes is better


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#65 Seenzoned

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 07:43 AM

it's balanced, if want to neft them #9 i think delete these classes is better

and you call the almost untouchable class due to block and his immortal bro which can be use during emergency situation a balance?

think again, use melee fighter and try to touch shaman whose surrounded by their guardian along, unless u disable them they will be able to counter at any situation

magnet? its fair just but add little cooldown more like a MAN



 


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#66 jomberl

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 08:25 AM

 

how about savage class

any concern about this ? #6

 
 
 

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#67 StormHaven

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:12 AM

 

 

how about savage class

any concern about this ? #6

 

 

This thread isn't about Savages and besides Savages are the most balanced class in the game and always have been.


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#68 stiffyliffyriffy

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:23 AM

This thread isn't about Savages and besides Savages are the most balanced class in the game and always have been.

 

That is a bold face lie. Savages have a move called head spin that they can use to combo/lock someone in the air with dragon uppercut. Furthermore, headspin also gives the caster itself super armor meaning that they can't be knocked down no matter how you come at them.


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#69 MongoMoves

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:29 AM

That is a bold face lie. Savages have a move called head spin that they can use to combo/lock someone in the air with dragon uppercut. Furthermore, headspin also gives the caster itself super armor meaning that they can't be knocked down no matter how you come at them.

 

I agree, but like Stormhaven said this thread is about Twins- Summoner - Invoker class balancing and lets wait for other class thread. I also thought this thread is for all class lol.


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#70 Coolsam

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 10:55 AM

That is a bold face lie. Savages have a move called head spin that they can use to combo/lock someone in the air with dragon uppercut. Furthermore, headspin also gives the caster itself super armor meaning that they can't be knocked down no matter how you come at them.

 

Headspin has so many counters it's not even funny:

 

Dragoon- X>X>Z Stun chain combo.

Overlord- X>X>Z>Z Stun chain combo or Death Stinger

Invoker- Barbarian, Witches' Curse, Magnet, Divine Wrath (Super-armored so no interruption), Z-spam knockback.

Sorcerer- Fire Symbol, Time Stop, Z-spam, or Freezing in general.

Savage- Your own headspin, Rocket Punch.

Ninja- Rocket Punch.

Sentinel- Telsa, Silence Trap, X>Down+Z>Z stun chain combo.

Destroyer- X>Down+Z>Z stun chain combo.

Summoner- Golgon Knockback, Rolling Stone, stun chain combos, you have several knockbacks.

Twin- Weaving avoids all damage, abilities knockback and cancel super-armor.

 

It takes varying degrees of skill depending on class. 

 


Edited by Coolsam, 30 May 2015 - 10:56 AM.

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#71 ScrambledCraig

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 04:22 PM

I'm just gonna sit this one out, you guys got this.


Edited by ScrambledCraig, 30 May 2015 - 04:22 PM.

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#72 qui3tgal

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 04:44 PM

*reminder* this game is not mainly pvp~ please consider the affect on pve too~ 


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#73 Tirbing

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 05:16 PM

LEAVE SUMMONERS ALONE  <snip>.

if u want to change something, fix the spirit counterattack so it can work against classes other than warriors and mages. Summoners are fragile without their summons. With spirit counterattack, it provides extra defense to summoner's meat walls.  

 

Edited by VModPopcorn: Such language is not tolerated. I asked to keep the topic clean. And please stop shouting.


Edited by VModPopcorn, 30 May 2015 - 11:01 PM.

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#74 qui3tgal

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 08:54 PM

LEAVE SUMMONERS ALONE  <snip>.

if u want to change something, fix the spirit counterattack so it can work against classes other than warriors and mages. Summoners are fragile without their summons. With spirit counterattack, it provides extra defense to summoner's meat walls.  

agreeeeee


Edited by VModPopcorn, 30 May 2015 - 11:01 PM.

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#75 Elijazz

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Posted 31 May 2015 - 04:05 AM

The only class that is OP here is the twin when it comes to PVP they are like godlike lol. They have blocks, mspeed skills, good crit damage cap,  also the unlimited combo skills cant let you move. Aside from that, the twin can still move even if the other main char was stunned.


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