219 replies to this topic

[StormHaven]

Even so, the amount of damage that elements add per hit seems to be the problem. Does element damage receive the 70% damage penalty while x-spamming in PvP? That's something that should be looked into.

 

They don't.

 

On the topic on Invokers the fact that they have extremely spammable hard CCs with high % of success(Barbarian,Witch's Curse,Divine Wrath) and their main source of damage is pressing  X over and over. All an invoker pretty much as do is land a single CC and it's match over you aren't going to escape unless the invoker wants you too, but in most cases you'll probably die in 5 seconds of frozen status from barb.

 Another thing is people always complain "If you nerf X spam they have nothing else blah blah blah", yet Invokers have insane levels of self sustain and chain able CC they should be doing a ton of damage or high burst damage in the first place.

[noxis]

Everyone asking for Invoker x-spam nerfs needs to remember that Invokers have nothing else they can use. Rain of Fire, Spark Rock, and Chain Lightning are all terrible at dealing damage, so reducing x-spam damage has a much worse effect on Invoker than reducing the damage of one skill would have on another class.

Even so, the amount of damage that elements add per hit seems to be the problem. Does element damage receive the 70% damage penalty while x-spamming in PvP? That's something that should be looked into.

A 3 second increase in Magnet cooldown combined with a decreased MP and awakening gauge cost seems fair.

Witch's Curse has already been nerfed in the past, but the duration is so long that if you catch someone with it, you can just stand there and wait for Barbarian/Magnet/Spark Rock to finish their cooldown so you can use them again to extend the combo. Instead of 16s duration and 20s cooldown, I think a 5s duration and 10s cooldown would work better. It still serves the same purpose but the person who is caught isn't helpless for such a long time, and the Invoker can't use it to stall for time.

witch's curse isn't a problem as many make it out to be. it is extremely predictable in a pvp setting and quickly reversible by any damage. poison and burns remedy it's effects. even an overlords bloody roar makes then immune to witch's curse. any damage dealt to the opponent while under the effect of witch's curse removes the effect. the same can't be said about other skills from other classes.

if you take into consideration other classes locking abilities then this skill is unique and has its uses, but is far from overpowered.

pallies and overlords can infinite lock leaving you with virtually no chance of escape. sorcerers can lock groups almost infinitely. Archers can aas lock as well as chain combo stun lock. the list goes on.

i would much rather talk about improving classes that need help than talk about nerfs. it is much too early to tell.

--

as far as weaving goes. twins can weave through fire emblem. they can weave through traps. they can weave out of pretty much anything. this isn't the problem. the problem is the frequency at which they are able to execute the skills back to back every few seconds while still being able to attack.

[noxis]

They don't.

On the topic on Invokers the fact that they have extremely spammable hard CCs with high % of success(Barbarian,Witch's Curse,Divine Wrath) and their main source of damage is pressing X over and over. All an invoker pretty much as do is land a single CC and it's match over you aren't going to escape unless the invoker wants you too, but in most cases you'll probably die in 5 seconds of frozen status from barb.

Another thing is people always complain "If you nerf X spam they have nothing else blah blah blah", yet Invokers have insane levels of self sustain and chain able CC they should be doing a ton of damage or high burst damage in the first place.

surviving against any class is dependent on gear. if you're dying against any class in 5 seconds then I assume you're not stacked enough at end game level. this does not take into consideration lower level BSQs where anything with elements and a decent weapon can kill you on less than 5 seconds.

this is basically asking for a nerf against a class/player that stacked element attack while you decided not to. if you do not put in the work as many other people do to farming gear and cards then of course the outcome is as you expect it.

if you die at 5 seconds from an easily avoidable barbarian, then I hate to see how fast you die when accidentally walking by a stacked summoners x spam.

at end game element resistance > element attack. purely fact.

in any mmorpg, progress is rewarded. you're simply asking for it to be the other way around.

if using an invoker is as easy and invincible as you make them out to be, then i would love an opportunity for you to prove me right.

[StormHaven]

surviving against any class is dependent on gear. if you're dying against any class in 5 seconds then I assume you're not stacked enough at end game level. this does not take into consideration lower level BSQs where anything with elements and a decent weapon can kill you on less than 5 seconds.

this is basically asking for a nerf against a class/player that stacked element attack while you decided not to. if you do not put in the work as many other people do to farming gear and cards then of course the outcome is as you expect it.

if you die at 5 seconds from an easily avoidable barbarian, then I hate to see how fast you die when accidentally walking by a stacked summoners x spam.

at end game element resistance > element attack. purely fact.

in any mmorpg, progress is rewarded. you're simply asking for it to be the other way around.

if using an invoker is as easy and invincible as you make them out to be, then i would love an opportunity for you to prove me right.

 

I didn't mention elements at all. Invokers have always been extremely efficient at killing people of equal gear levels in about 5seconds even before elements existed, just due to the nature of DS/DC DPS when you stack attack speed, along with lightening log in Magnet or Barb.

 

hell even myself as Sentinel with only 3-4* Element sockets and +20 Element Elga if I catch you with freeze trap(Lasts 3.3seconds) You're most likely dead, and before elements you'd be guaranteed to die in single freeze from any class vs any player with a +20 weapon.

Edited by StormHaven, 28 May 2015 - 06:47 PM.

[noxis]

I didn't mention elements at all. Invokers have always been extremely efficient at killing people of equal gear levels in about 5seconds even before elements existed, just due to the nature of DS/DC DPS when you stack attack speed, along with lightening log in Magnet or Barb.

hell even myself as Sentinel with only 3-4* Element sockets and +20 Element Elga if I catch you with freeze trap(Lasts 3.3seconds) You're most likely dead, and before elements you'd be guaranteed to die in single freeze from any class vs any player with a +20 weapon.

elements aside, the 70% reduction after 10 consecutive hits from ds/dc ended their killing potential. put it in naked pvp perspective.

[Coolsam]

Progress is a fair argument in regards to anything in Dragon Saga. Grinded 15* Cerberus Solars/Stellas? Result of grinding and hard work, even in just buying it you had to get that gold somehow. The same is said about elements. If you grinded hundreds of thousands of gold or did 1,000 runs for those 6*'s, use them all you freaking want because you had to get them the hard way.

 

Invoker X-spam w/o elements has 0 damage. Since majority players pack 25-30k+ defense, even with solars a +20 staff isn't gonna help much even without the damage reduction.

 

What's the opinion on the X-spam w/ chain combo though? Both Invoker and Summoner can do mini-flinch locks if they can shoot fast enough. Summoner's case was especially terrifying as it's confirmed there's no damage reduction.

[Apocryphos]

 

witch's curse isn't a problem as many make it out to be. it is extremely predictable in a pvp setting and quickly reversible by any damage. poison and burns remedy it's effects. even an overlords bloody roar makes then immune to witch's curse. any damage dealt to the opponent while under the effect of witch's curse removes the effect. the same can't be said about other skills from other classes.
Extremely predictable < Client Sided Catches.
if you take into consideration other classes locking abilities then this skill is unique and has its uses, but is far from overpowered.
Comparing a skill to locking abilities is meh, Invokers have The Safest, and Fastest Locking in game hand's down. 
pallies and overlords can infinite lock leaving you with virtually no chance of escape. sorcerers can lock groups almost infinitely. Archers can aas lock as well as chain combo stun lock. the list goes on.
Paladins and Overlords ground locking would take forever to kill someone same with sorcerer as for archers Air Recovery is a thing, again lets compare a fast lock safe lock vs long leaky lock, yes in pvp environment but when do you actually get an ideal pvp environment in a game where even the slightest lag a mage can blink out of a combo or a character walks out of the combo. or catch you with  a ground base move while you're in the air.

Simple Priests can fend off or add other's in while locking. No other character can do that, 
i would much rather talk about improving classes that need help than talk about nerfs. it is much too early to tell.
Removing elements absolute damage would actually solve some of the problems except healing weaving and possibly easy flinch locking.

as far as weaving goes. twins can weave through fire emblem. they can weave through traps. they can weave out of pretty much anything. this isn't the problem. the problem is the frequency at which they are able to execute the skills back to back every few seconds while still being able to attack.

 

surviving against any class is dependent on gear. if you're dying against any class in 5 seconds then I assume you're not stacked enough at end game level. this does not take into consideration lower level BSQs where anything with elements and a decent weapon can kill you on less than 5 seconds. 
Well I'm assuming the other guy is too stacked.
this is basically asking for a nerf against a class/player that stacked element attack while you decided not to. if you do not put in the work as many other people do to farming gear and cards then of course the outcome is as you expect it.

if you die at 5 seconds from an easily avoidable barbarian, then I hate to see how fast you die when accidentally walking by a stacked summoners x spam.
Thats why the feedback is for Invokers - Summoners - Twins so accidents like dieing from an "easily avoidable barbarian" or walking into a summoners x-spam.
at end game element resistance > element attack. purely fact.

in any mmorpg, progress is rewarded. you're simply asking for it to be the other way around.

if using an invoker is as easy and invincible as you make them out to be, then i would love an opportunity for you to prove me right.

No comment

 

Progress is a fair argument in regards to anything in Dragon Saga. Grinded 15* Cerberus Solars/Stellas? Result of grinding and hard work, even in just buying it you had to get that gold somehow. The same is said about elements. If you grinded hundreds of thousands of gold or did 1,000 runs for those 6*'s, use them all you freaking want because you had to get them the hard way.

Leveling and achieving healing skills means you should use them all you want, yep. [/endsarcasm]

Invoker X-spam w/o elements has 0 damage. Since majority players pack 25-30k+ defense, even with solars a +20 staff isn't gonna help much even without the damage reduction.

Yes but with stella, elemental resistance, and cast time reductions, they're nearly immortal. Bring in items makes them completely immortal.

What's the opinion on the X-spam w/ chain combo though? Both Invoker and Summoner can do mini-flinch locks if they can shoot fast enough. Summoner's case was especially terrifying as it's confirmed there's no damage reduction.

Invokers can strafe and collect enemies while summoner can home in on enemies they do the same

Replies in bold

Look at all the white knighting given the same end game gear as the other,and a real environment the 3 classes in discussion excel at what other classes are suppose to excel at despite the roles they play mainly because their damage frequency consists mainly of elemental attack. We totally ignored the don't argue rule.

@The Topic

- What can we do to make the Dragokin classes more fair for everyone (PvP and PvE wise)?

Add/Increase a/the cooldown on fusion make it so if secondary twin falls main twin can't fuse with it.

Summon's can't reflect skills but can reflect x/z commands from melee classes.

Reduce Summons HP

- Would you mind to make the cooldown duration of the Invoker's Magnet Skill 3 seconds longer?

Just increase it already.

[noxis]

Progress is a fair argument in regards to anything in Dragon Saga. Grinded 15* Cerberus Solars/Stellas? Result of grinding and hard work, even in just buying it you had to get that gold somehow. The same is said about elements. If you grinded hundreds of thousands of gold or did 1,000 runs for those 6*'s, use them all you freaking want because you had to get them the hard way.

Invoker X-spam w/o elements has 0 damage. Since majority players pack 25-30k+ defense, even with solars a +20 staff isn't gonna help much even without the damage reduction.

What's the opinion on the X-spam w/ chain combo though? Both Invoker and Summoner can do mini-flinch locks if they can shoot fast enough. Summoner's case was especially terrifying as it's confirmed there's no damage reduction.

ideally, x spam chain combo flinch should be reworked since it can be taken to extreme levels by stacking attack speed. destroyers, summoners, and invokers are the primary holders of this attribute. there is nothing wrong with x spamming. it has it's pros and cons. but involving flinches that disrupt and halt movement and skill casting while you're being constantly hit is something that should be looked into. i honestly don't mind spammers. but the flinching coupled with it in pvp is another story. not to mention that it has super armor attributes while being executed. i would suggest greatly reducing or removing its flinching effect.


--

witchs curse can be categorized as a locking skill, though not a good one since it's primary focus is to stall for time, be it for skill cool downs or regrouping. it's quite frustrating to cast witches curse only for someone on your team to come by and hit them immediately removing the effect.

as for pallys and overlord locking to death taking a long time, that is dependent on gear. the fact of the matter is. they can lock and do so at a much easier stance with almost no cool down time management involved.

sorcerers and priests have to take into account of cool down time management be successful.

honestly, how many priests do you have troubling beating that nerfs should be taken to this extent that you are not seeing basic after effects of such proposals?

[Coolsam]

ideally, x spam chain combo flinch should be reworked since it can be taken to extreme levels by stacking attack speed. destroyers, summoners, and invokers are the primary holders of this attribute. there is nothing wrong with x spamming. it has it's pros and cons. but involving flinches that disrupt and halt movement and skill casting while you're being constantly hit is something that should be looked into. i honestly don't mind spammers. but the flinching coupled with it in pvp is another story. not to mention that it has super armor attributes while being executed. i would suggest greatly reducing or removing its flinching effect.
X-spam itself is not a problem. Even it's super-armor on some classes is okay as players can adapt and use super-armor canceling knockback and stuns/freezes. The interrupting flinches are what's making it a hassle.
--

witchs curse can be categorized as a locking skill, though not a good one since it's primary focus is to stall for time, be it for skill cool downs or regrouping. it's quite frustrating to cast witches curse only for someone on your team to come by and hit them immediately removing the effect.
Witches' Curse is stall-skill at best. It sets up for the next catch and allows for regrouping and cooldowns as you said. It combined with Quagmire however is a very crippling movement speed reduction that even archers are hit like a truck by.
as for pallys and overlord locking to death taking a long time, that is dependent on gear. the fact of the matter is. they can lock and do so at a much easier stance with almost no cool down time management involved.
Paladin's are especially guilty of this following the revert of the cc+spear jab nerf. The damage issue isn't a thing with gear as Bloody Roar allows for 75-100k+ attack w/ Element attack skyrocket (3k+ ele attack w/ accessories alone.), Paladin's can ultilize Spear Jab w/ Elements well and chain-combo stuns and both have low-cooldown stun spam on top of it.
sorcerers and priests have to take into account of cool down time management be successful.

Sorcerer's more so, as blowing both Blizzard and Snow Blues right away can give an escape opportunity later. You gotta control the skills and abuse Fire Symbol's electricity flinch.

honestly, how many priests do you have troubling beating that nerfs should be taken to this extent that you are not seeing basic after effects of such proposals?

In actuality I don't struggle with Priests 1vs1 (When they decide no magnet or when they decide it. Learning catch radius is a helpful hint vs them.) and really only the flinch x-spam and magnet cooldown should be looked into. Infinite healing loses to freeze/stun lock. Emergency Exit loses to block-ignoring stuns and catches (Witch Curse or Hypnotize inside the EE. They take 0 damage so no canceling). Witches Curse loses to DoT's (Bloody Roar is a self DoT). But Flinch X-spam I'm struggling with. Magnet's predictable but practically spammable.

 

Replies in Bold.

[Fliederduft78]

I'm actually a pure PVE player, I got nearly zero PVP experience. But I felt the need to join in the conversation to remind you guys about the PVE part of the game. 

 

Nerfing x-spam of an invoker will nearly kill this class completely for PVE purposes.They rely on the combo attack x shot and it's effects - yes the flinching for bosses and dungeon bosses is great (plus it's good for mission map groggy bar filling). They don't have much other pve skills that do this (fire rain for example does a good job too, but it alone can't fill groggy bar for example cause of the cooldown part) . Just as an example for the invoker.

Generally, pllease always keep the PVE part in mind. Skills are bound for PVP and PVE - means if you nerf one for PVP purposes it will get the same nerf in PVE (good example of doing it wrong would be Final Decision, the shared cooldown spearjab and crosscut had). And we for sure don't want this crap to happen again, do we? (we for sure must do a better job with this as the korean devs)

No matter which class, this crap is nothing we do want to happen ever again for any class in the game. (yes even not for the op twin and shaman class)

 

I completely agree invoker + elements is bad in PVP, the element system for sure needs a rework - as soon as things like this get possible.

I agree that a high stacked attack speed player - in PVP - is bad too.........maybe capping the attack speed for this class in a slight amount would help? dunno.......talking about an amount that would go okay for PVE purposes too. 

 

No, I don't play any invoker. Just not my personal choice of class. But I saw them doing PVE without the chain combo and with it. Talking about the "normal" players here, not the stacked to death ones. You know what I mean. And for those the chain combo x shot and it's effects is good PVE wise.

 

Edit: About being able to kill Elga solo (regarding x shot class and PVE invoker), oh well........actually I don't think any class of the game should be able to do this.....not the invoker, not the shaman.....not whichever class is able to right now. Cause it is an Endgame boss and it shall be hard, done in a party.

 

 

I think 3s cooldown increase of magnet skill would be fine, PVP and PVE wise.

 

Sadly I know nothing about twins and shamans at all.  Not even about the PVE part. 

 

Edited by Fliederduft78, 28 May 2015 - 10:30 PM.

[drops1]

On a side note why is everyone against higher tier element cards? Other than people's farming being thrown out the window *I've done my fair share of element farming tyvm as bandwagon leader of destroyer*

Let me list out stuff that would happen in 75+ PvP, Resistance is % reduction 10k=50% 20k= 100%

- 10*'s would allow players to resist elements completely.Meaning no more death by x-spam.

- 10* will make elemental elga weapon's obsolete, making PoS weapons the new meta.

- Overall Damage of x-spamming classes reduced, classes with high % attack and magic attack will have stronger hits

- 10* resistance cards reduce more than 10* attack cards can dish out damage.

- With the exception of demolition element,

TLDR: It actually balances the game out.

 

Just saying this is proposition gimme some actual proof that it'll be game breaking

 

well said

[sean718]

 

I completely agree invoker + elements is bad in PVP, the element system for sure needs a rework - as soon as things like this get possible.

I agree that a high stacked attack speed player - in PVP - is bad too.........maybe capping the attack speed for this class in a slight amount would help? dunno.......talking about an amount that would go okay for PVE purposes too. 

 

 

End game builds need to be taken into account when factoring in nerfs or improvements. A fully stacked invoker with 6* attack cards equipped on the appropriate sockets will have a hard time against any opponent that has invested some time on stacking their resistances. With an invokers x spam almost being purely element attack based, they are prone to drastic reductions against players who have high resistances. An invokers x spam is reduced by 70% (mattk only) after 10 consecutive hits. This means that they cannot take advantage of critical rate and critical damage in pvp like other classes can. This also means that equipping solar rings for pvp would be virtually fruitless, save for hp restore and buffing their element attack boosts from 6* cards and 3 piece element accessories.

 

The problem is not the x spam or the element, the problem is the lack of players fulfilling criteria to compete against end game players who have invested their time as such.

 

In lower level pvp, stacking element attack and +20 weapons are rampant and there are no POS sets to help with resistance stacking. This doesn't change the fact that they are the most crowded BSQs on the server. Participation is extremely high when comparing other BSQs of varying levels. This might be explained by the simple and easy-to-meet stacking threshold.

 

Attack speed is already capped by usable equipment. Introducing a forced cap on it to deter x spamming would be futile. x spam is simply more than just attack speed.

 

 

 

well said

 

There would be an astronomical difference in PVE. I believe the korean devs noticed that.

Edited by sean718, 29 May 2015 - 12:04 AM.

[Fliederduft78]

End game builds need to be taken into account when factoring in nerfs or improvements. A fully stacked invoker with 6* attack cards equipped on the appropriate sockets will have a hard time against any opponent that has invested some time on stacking their resistances. With an invokers x spam almost being purely element attack based, they are prone to drastic reductions against players who have high resistances. An invokers x spam is reduced by 70% (mattk only) after 10 consecutive hits. This means that they cannot take advantage of critical rate and critical damage in pvp like other classes can. This also means that equipping solar rings for pvp would be virtually fruitless, save for hp restore and buffing their element attack boosts from 6* cards and 3 piece element accessories.

 

The problem is not the x spam or the element, the problem is the lack of players fulfilling criteria to compete against end game players who have invested their time as such.

 

In lower level pvp, stacking element attack and +20 weapons are rampant and there are no POS sets to help with resistance stacking. This doesn't change the fact that they are the most crowded BSQs on the server. Participation is extremely high when comparing other BSQs of varying levels. This might be explained by the simple and easy-to-meet stacking threshold.

 

Attack speed is already capped by usable equipment. Introducing a forced cap on it to deter x spamming would be futile. x spam is simply more than just attack speed.

 

 

 

 

There would be an astronomical difference in PVE. I believe the korean devs noticed that.

 

Aaah, I see. Thanks for clarification. 

Nevermind my question regarding attack speed cap please.

 

 

 

An invokers x spam is reduced by 70% (mattk only) after 10 consecutive hits.

 

^ That I somehow knew. Very dumb question ahead now: What about shaman class (they rely on x attack too), do they face the same or a similar limitation?

Just something that does interest me personally....

 

 

There would be an astronomical difference in PVE. I believe the korean devs noticed that.

 

Agreed. 

 

 

[sean718]

Aaah, I see. Thanks for clarification.
Nevermind my question regarding attack speed cap please.



^ That I somehow knew. Very dumb question ahead now: What about shaman class (they rely on x attack too), do they face the same or a similar limitation?
Just something that does interest me personally....


Agreed.

There are currently no reductions in damage for destroyers and summoners concerning x spam in PvP.

[Rainnowx]

 

Generally, pllease always keep the PVE part in mind. Skills are bound for PVP and PVE - means if you nerf one for PVP purposes it will get the same nerf in PVE (good example of doing it wrong would be Final Decision, the shared cooldown spearjab and crosscut had). And we for sure don't want this crap to happen again, do we? (we for sure must do a better job with this as the korean devs)

No matter which class, this crap is nothing we do want to happen ever again for any class in the game. (yes even not for the op twin and shaman class)

 

The underlined occured certainly because "some people" were enough lazy not to make something that could prevent a two-sided crap. Though they spent time to create Class-specific PvP effects*  - that includes bonus and malus -  they have not been even caring about it anymore when there's more to put in those AND when those at least are active only during PvP matches.

 

HP buff aside, they managed to do something about Spark Rock's and Double Strike's range and/or damage. Shouldn't we suggest to make the same thing for the other "annoying" Skills? Maybe they can't change the conditions to hit** or what does it cause***, but still...

 

 

 

[Points that I couldn't manage to explain shortly and well]

Spoiler

*I mentionned once somewhere, something about an effect that each one has during a fight, that is based on the played Class. If it isn't even clear, just try a PvP match and you'll see why your max HP is increased, and also not in the same proportion as for any Class else.

 

**For example: Apocryphos's point about Twin's Ghost Fighter.

 

***Long version: "[This] or whether it should knock down, knock back, make fly, flinch..."

Edited by Rainnowx, 29 May 2015 - 02:57 AM.

[Mizuro75]

Twin Fighter
 
Weaving / Power Weaving
As StormHaven said Power Weaving could be the "upgrade" of Weaving
 
Invincible Twin
It's very easy to knockdown the twin and the twin will lay down until you use Fusion or moving far enough. Sure Fusion has only a 2 seconds cooldown on Lv 3 but that's the only thing which could be changed for balancing. If the twin would receive damage the twin fighter would be one of the easiest classes to defeat, since he has a low defense and LP and you can't control the twin, so if he's knocked down and let's assume Fusion on Lv 3 would get a 5 sec cooldown, the twin fighter would either die very fast, since he is a very easy target for 5 seconds or would be busy the whole time with dodging (since the main only got Power Fist to attack) in order to cast fusion and the whole thing starts again.
 
Power Fist
While performing the skill the main should dash forward and hit but sometimes there is no dash, so fixing this would be nice.
 
Christmas accessory
Seems to be bugged. It adds the skill Lv but for example with a Hyper Knee Kick Necklace (Hero) you could save 30 SP since you only need to skill Lv 1 instead of 3 but the problem is with the necklace the skill is Lv 4 but for the following skills it says Hyper Knee Kick Lv 3 is required.

Ghost Fighter
Apocryphos:

Ghost Fighter - It's hit scan is client sided, meaning when they cast it and you're in range whether you run out of range or not it will catch you.

 
In my opinion a change of Weaving / Power Weaving | Ghost Fighter and maybe a change of Fusion cooldown would be far enough for balancing
 
 
 
Also there is a problem with both Dragonkin classes but I can't explain so I try to demonstrate it with 2 pictures.
 
4th class human

Spoiler

 
4th class dragonkin

Spoiler

Edited by Mizuro75, 29 May 2015 - 05:52 AM.

[Neniwi]

Please any change apply only in PVP, thanks.

I have playing with destroyer, priest and twin, and all are funny in their way. But I prefer cooperative mode more than competitive mode.

[Fliederduft78]

 

Please any change apply only in PVP, thanks.

 

This is not possible, how the game is set up.

 

Any changes made will affect PVP and PVE and will come for both PVP and PVE in the exact same way.

 

And adjustments to the twin, priest and shaman skill(s) will come somehow. This topic here is purely set up for this.

If only one skill gets changed, or if there will be more nobody of us is able to say at this point.

 

But my personal feeling is telling me at least the magnet skill of the invoker tree is going to get a cooldown increase. Cause everyone seems to have the same opinion on that one. But actually a cooldown increase is just a cooldown increase, good for PVP it seems - but no harm for PVE either. I think it's fine for both PVP and PVE.

 

 

 

 

Weaving / Power Weaving
As StormHaven said Power Weaving could be the "upgrade" of Weaving

 

I think this is not possible, cause I asked Poppie about a similar thing (different class) but still and the answer was "The skills itself are hardcoded into the client. This means we cannot change how they are done, with which animation they do come and cannot change their programmed in purpose at time being". 

Edit. But there always is hope me thinks, maybe some day....

 

Maybe you guys could have a second thought on the cooldown change part of these two skills?

(or 3? thought twin had 3 100% blocking skills......at least that is what I heard so far....)

Cause I personally see potential here - and it would be something that actually can be done (looking at spearjab and crosscut now)...and maybe not PVE breaking...

 

but I'm just a PVP "noob" 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Fliederduft78, 29 May 2015 - 08:42 AM.

[Mizuro75]

Maybe you guys could have a second thought on the cooldown change part of these two skills?
(or 3? thought twin had 3 100% blocking skills......at least that is what I heard so far....)

Yea, there is Infinite Defence. But the skill can only be performed in Fusion status and got a 15 sec CD. In PvP you could cast Power Fist or Ghost Fighter while Fusion. So maybe a simple change like you can't use skills during the 1,5 sec duration of Infinite Defence would be enough but in my opinion Infinite Defence doesn't need a change but like this I'd say everybody would be ok with it.

The problem is that the twin needs the blocking skills in PvE for bosses to compensate their low def and LP.
So if these skills get nerfed too much it will affect too much on PvE.
I can only tell my experiences until Lv. 70 but in every dungeon like bone or RFD the blocking skills saved my life. Can't tell about Elga with a twin but I think the blocking skills are also very important.

It will be very tough to find a way to weaken these skills without affecting the PvE usage too much.

Edited by Mizuro75, 29 May 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[LazeZH]

People keep bashing twin without knowing how they work. So many suggestions would just ruin the class completely.

I agree they got balance issues, but just crapping them isn't really fair...

 

Spoiler

Weaving is a core part of the twin's class design. The problem is how abusable it is. Put Power weaving where weaving is and remove the other, so we just have one of them. That alone gives plenty of openings. I'm against the upgrading idea just because of the sp cost...

 

The fusion block isn't absolute and only good for casting ghost fighter anyway. Ghost can be annoying I guess even though it can be hard countered by pretty much every class I think. Just cast a summon of sorts and the twin will leap into it's death... Knowledge is power. I don't think it's more of an issue than other classes' skills. 

 

Making the twin mortal would be ridiculous. Comparing to Ice Climbers in Super smash, that would be like your main sibling wouldn't be able to do jacksht if popo died. GG

 

Twin immortality and movement speed isn't issues on their own, but together with the skill functionality of the class, it leads to abuse. The most effective way to play is the twin dropping style, running around and just leaving or throwing the twin around. Pretty much like a battlemage with 400 ms and no cast time or animation. It's a way that's abusing the class, but we don't have much choice. A ninja COULD just sleep long all day, but pvpers quitted that (right?) and it wasn't because they had to, but they got other options and they are more effective if played right. Higher risk higher reward. That should be the case for twins too. I myself use the main twin actively in pvp even though it isn't really the way the skills are made for us. I think it's a lot more fun even if I've gotten more arse kicked a lot more than Faela ever did. To fix this I suggest to make some of the twin skills into main twin skills and remove some of its start-up delay. The animations aren't an issue as it's already possible to do in game, but the delay makes it kinda crap. Or new main skills could be made and some of the worthless skills you can't skip removed to balance the sp...

Short: Remove one of the weave skills. More main twin skills to encourage a more high risk - high reward type of gameplay which would be more fun for both parts

[Fliederduft78]

Hmm, this might be totally insane now.......but..........how about a shared cooldown of weave and power weaving?

So both of the skills would completely stay intact the way they are now, but can't be spammed directly after each other "constantly" in PVP.

Since they are no active attacking skills.........at least as far as I got it........there shouldn't be much harm done in PVE and the constant block spamming in PVP is stopped too.

The players would just have to decide which of the two skills they want to use at the particular situation.........and would still have both skills available to choose from. 

 

I don't know if this would be something worth taking in consideration? 

 

Maybe it's better as completely taking one of the skills out of the game......

[LazeZH]

^ That's completely nonsense, sorry. There's no point in using normal weaving over power weaving. It's better to take one out to save the sp.

[StormHaven]

The problem is that the twin needs the blocking skills in PvE for bosses to compensate their low def and LP.
So if these skills get nerfed too much it will affect too much on PvE.
I can only tell my experiences until Lv. 70 but in every dungeon like bone or RFD the blocking skills saved my life. Can't tell about Elga with a twin but I think the blocking skills are also very important.

It will be very tough to find a way to weaken these skills without affecting the PvE usage too much.

 

No it won't. I've got my twin to 70 using only Main twin and Fusion skills and rarely if ever using either of the weaves, at very end game most Fighters I use just use the invincible twin  to absorb every single PvE attack coming towards them while they run around avoiding anything that passes the twin with At Light Speed to manual evade anything that isn't absorb by the twin.

[jomberl]

Fix the Ninja's Blocked Chance Too #3 i didnt FEEL it <|3

 

 

 

 

[noxis]

Fix the Ninja's Blocked Chance Too #3 i didnt FEEL it <|3

 

this is something i would like to see. but the exact 'fix' is something that's debatable.

 

the one that makes the most sense:

 

-revert evade and block rate values prior to nerfs but with more impacting caps.

  evade rate could be maxed at 30% with block rate capped at 25% across the board.

   this would allow players to utilize their passive skills but not without sacrifice in their builds.

    ninjas wouldn't simply stack evade as it was before. pallys wouldn't have an overpowering block          rate but it would give them some leverage in group pvp. impact in pve is negligible. 

 

i would suggest other ideas but this one is the one the one that i've come to considered the most fair to the respective classes.

 

at this moment pallys and ninjas in bsq/pvp are nonexistent, and the ones that are get destroyed by other classes in seconds.

 

with the nerf came the loss of a pallys ability to survive in group pvp. the same goes for ninjas. both classes are known for skill damage that needs to be dealt up close and personal. right now they have no way of doing that.

Edited by noxis, 29 May 2015 - 01:18 PM.