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WILL SOMEBODY LISTEN PLEASE! (Mage Catastrophe II)


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#126 KatsuraKujo

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 07:33 AM

About raiders. This is something i noticed playing a skill type katar and a melee type.

Here's the thing. For skill type, while hitting a king, i can hit nearly all the hits with little accu, with skills and some melees.

 

For melee type, i miss quite a number of times with the exact same amount of accu as the skill type. 

 

My assumption

Skill types are either slower so their chances of getting a "miss" from the game system is significantly lower. So they hit more with lower amount of accu.

 

Melee type on the other hand hit like 200-300%aspd depending on gears, stacks and so on. They have a higher chance of getting the miss just because they hit super fast. Thus, they need higher amount of accu in order to hit the same class more.

 

This is raiders.

Btw, if you mention Dual raiders, they already naturally have high accu, high ap, high def (well not really but decent enough), and they are significantly slower than katar raiders or other melee types. So their chance of hitting is even higher than of the skill type katar. Thus hit better.

 

As for other classes, well i am unsure of this. I have never ever tested any other class in TG besides my raider, and the other classes do fine with about the same amount of accu as all my other pvm types. It might be the speed you're hitting that causes it to have less hits or that the accu simply isn't enough to compensate and counter the crazy dodge that raiders have.

 

Sorry for going off topic, but just saying what i experienced.


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#127 carlosrose

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 08:20 AM

I would like to point out that every class but tanks and clerics dies in less than 3 sec if targetted by several ennemies, I really fail to see why it should be different for Mages. And no... really... don't come up with dodge blahblahblah... already experienced getting targeted by a single gun bourg as a raider or scout and die instantly? 

Yes I had the experience and couldn't be easier to get away from them with 2 cloaks and as a scout if it comes to 1v1 when the scout stuns the bourg is a GG for them, if not they can always cloak run and sneak from another angle.

 

Regarding glorious gears... well, it s a tanking set... and this for every class, ofc you deal less damage than with pure DPS gears, there s no exception to that.

Regarding precious gears... poeple do not use precious to primarly stack mouvement speed, but to boost their healing%

Say what? Glorious a tank gear? What ever you are having I want some of that for reals!

Any job without dodge passives (aka any job that AINT a hawker) will deny it.

Regarding precious.... I'm still to find someone that goes for that healing % instead of the Stun ressistance or the aspeed 

 

Indeed, many people fail completly to make non biased assumptions or comments.

LUUUL


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#128 CharasX

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 08:23 AM

I think you already failed to do this when you stated Mages have more mspd than raiders and 3k accuracy being able to hit every class at 90% chance or stuffs like that.

 

I never said Mages have more mvt speed than Raiders! I overviewed the based mvt speed available on shoes for both classes indeed, but let s be honest... it does not make a big difference. If you really want speed on your Mage.. then.. idk... go for mvt speed substat! it will be of a great help while standing next to ur cleric I guess ;p

 

And yes... with 3k acc skills miss extremly rarely... so 90% seems close enough to the reality to me. If you miss a lot on your skills during AA with 3k accuracy, then I believe you should screen and report! your stats values are probably trolling u! lol

 

Plz try harder.

 

edit : removed my comment on glorious gears... I prefer to let u believe what you want about it.


Edited by CharasX, 18 June 2015 - 08:27 AM.

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#129 LunaXavier

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 08:30 AM

And yes... with 3k acc skills miss extremly rarely... so 90% seems close enough to the reality to me. If you miss a lot on your skills during AA with 3k accuracy, then I believe you should screen and report! your stats values are probably trolling u! lol 

They aren't trolling. You don't understand the game's mechanics. Ask someone wise to provide you a dodge forumla so you can understand. You will know why 3k accu is not 90% hit chance once you learn the basics.

 

Plz try harder. Study the basics more

 

edit : removed my comment on glorious gears... I prefer to let u believe what you want about it. Why remove? Since your statements include wrong informations? Please dont make false assumptions if you dont understand the basics. They can be misleading for new comers

 


Edited by LunaXavier, 18 June 2015 - 08:34 AM.

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#130 carlosrose

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 09:06 AM

I never said Mages have more mvt speed than Raiders! I overviewed the based mvt speed available on shoes for both classes indeed, but let s be honest... it does not make a big difference. If you really want speed on your Mage.. then.. idk... go for mvt speed substat! it will be of a great help while standing next to ur cleric I guess ;p

"In wich universe Raiders have more m speed than a mage? " Right there.....

 

And yes... with 3k acc skills miss extremly rarely... so 90% seems close enough to the reality to me. If you miss a lot on your skills during AA with 3k accuracy, then I believe you should screen and report! your stats values are probably trolling u! lol Just gonna repeat what Luna said: "They aren't trolling. You don't understand the game's mechanics. Ask someone wise to provide you a dodge forumla so you can understand. You will know why 3k accu is not 90% hit chance once you learn the basics"

 

Plz try harder.

 

edit : removed my comment on glorious gears... I prefer to let u believe what you want about it. Trying to validate a point with false and wrong information comes at a prize doesnt it? :/ Next time try to make decent posts 

 

Any way this is getting offtopic we are here to discuss the current mage situation if you have nothing interesting to add get out.

 

So now back to topic I will just repeat the suggestions I made back there about possible fixes for mages:

1)Add a dmg cap to shield so it wont be taken down in 2 skills (doesnt make too much sense to have a 30k mana shield that gets taken down in 2 16k dmg hits and when its down u get as high as 6k hits...)

2)Add a "mana shield hp bar" just as hp bar: shows up when mana shield is casted and tells you how much more dmg u can take before it goes down that should really help to time the time of recasting (since when u are hitting by more than 1 player is nearly impossible to know when ur shield is gonna go down leaving you pretty much hopeless) 

with the current damage output that last option would be kind of dull since the overall would be the same but for future references I just wanted to throw it out there


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#131 CharasX

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:15 AM

About the glorious stats... a few questions if I may : wouldn't you consider dodge, wich is the main stat brought by this set, as being a defensive stat? Isn't critical both a defensive and offensive stat? Isn't mvt speed helping with defensive mechanics?

The Glorious set and the Precious set are both defensive, while Chiva and Lumi sets are both offensive. This is no false information, but you are ofcourse welcomed to think the contrary!

I just don't want to elaborate too much on this subject because I do not want to spoon feed knowledge to ppl, especially since you seem to believe you know so much more than I do! This is all there is behind it.

 

About dodge and accuracy : 1st, accuracy is only usefull if your target has a lot of dodge / 2nd, it is impossible to reach an amount of dodge that would make u be unhittable. Knowing this... and knowing 3k acc is quite high... you are 100% positive when u say you do not hit with 90% or more of your skills in a regular AA? 

It looks like you think of yourself as being someone wise... so please, enlighten me and show me how precisely the server mechanic is working! and try to explain me why you would miss so much with such an high accuracy.

 

Asking why would Raiders have more mvt speed than Mages isn't the same as saying than Mages have more mvt speed than Raiders. The only difference seems to be the shoes! what a game breaking and unfair advantage!

 

Else if we go back ontopic... your suggestions aren't that bad... indeed if mana shield has no dmg cap on it, it should be made the same way it is for regular HP bar... capped at 45%dmg. So this way, if you have 30k manashield, the max hit you could recieve at once would be 13500 instead of the 16k damage you are talking about!

About the mana shield HP bar... why not.

 

(btw, the reason why max damage you recieve once your shield is down is around 6k... is very probably because u must have around 13k HP)

 


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#132 Krizalis

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:38 AM

About the glorious stats... a few questions if I may : wouldn't you consider dodge, wich is the main stat brought by this set, as being a defensive stat? Isn't critical both a defensive and offensive stat? Isn't mvt speed helping with defensive mechanics?

The Glorious set and the Precious set are both defensive, while Chiva and Lumi sets are both offensive. This is no false information, but you are ofcourse welcomed to think the contrary!

 

By your logic.. then I fail to see Chiva and Lumi as being only Offensive set.. Why? Because Chiva gives Max HP too? Isnt Max HP considered defensive? And for LUMI.. it gives MAX MP stat too and for mages/clerics that uses mana shield.. that CAN BE CONSIDERED AS defensive too?


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#133 LunaXavier

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:39 AM

About the glorious stats... a few questions if I may : wouldn't you consider dodge, wich is the main stat brought by this set, as being a defensive stat? Isn't critical both a defensive and offensive stat? Isn't mvt speed helping with defensive mechanics?

Is dodge really defensive for clerics? champs? Mages? Launchers? Is it that effective as defense?

 

The Glorious set and the Precious set are both defensive, while Chiva and Lumi sets are both offensive. This is no false information, but you are ofcourse welcomed to think the contrary!

If they are defensive,why do clerics cant use these? Have you even tried precious set? and Realize how squishy this set is?

 

I just don't want to elaborate too much on this subject because I do not want to spoon feed knowledge to ppl, especially since you seem to believe you know so much more than I do! This is all there is behind it. Your knowledge is based on false assumptions, as far as I've read

 

About dodge and accuracy : 1st, accuracy is only usefull if your target has a lot of dodge / 2nd, it is impossible to reach an amount of dodge that would make u be unhittable. Knowing this... and knowing 3k acc is quite high... you are 100% positive when u say you do not hit with 90% or more of your skills in a regular AA? 

It looks like you think of yourself as being someone wise... so please, enlighten me and show me how precisely the server mechanic is working! and try to explain me why you would miss so much with such an high accuracy. Do you know how the dodge forumla work? If not, you shouldn't put false arguments or assumptions like 3k accu has 90% chance to hit.

 

Asking why would Raiders have more mvt speed than Mages isn't the same as saying than Mages have more mvt speed than Raiders. The only difference seems to be the shoes! what a game breaking and unfair advantage! No one ask tho. You stated mages have more mspd than raider which is invalid.

 


Edited by LunaXavier, 18 June 2015 - 10:40 AM.

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#134 carlosrose

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:41 AM

About the glorious stats... a few questions if I may : wouldn't you consider dodge, wich is the main stat brought by this set, as being a defensive stat? Isn't critical both a defensive and offensive stat? Isn't mvt speed helping with defensive mechanics?

The Glorious set and the Precious set are both defensive, while Chiva and Lumi sets are both offensive. This is no false information, but you are ofcourse welcomed to think the contrary!

I just don't want to elaborate too much on this subject because I do not want to spoon feed knowledge to ppl, especially since you seem to believe you know so much more than I do! This is all there is behind it.

Without passives that support the set dodge cannot be considered a defensive stat AT ALL. The mspeed is indeed nice but totally useless at the current time if you rely just on that.

Precious is even worse than glorious, the healing effectiveness you receive is a joke, makes no difference at all on the outcome and once again the mspeed cannot be used as a single defensive mechanism. 

Atm there are no honor defensive gears for any class that aint a hawker.

 

About dodge and accuracy : 1st, accuracy is only usefull if your target has a lot of dodge / 2nd, it is impossible to reach an amount of dodge that would make u be unhittable. Knowing this... and knowing 3k acc is quite high... you are 100% positive when u say you do not hit with 90% or more of your skills in a regular AA? 

It looks like you think of yourself as being someone wise... so please, enlighten me and show me how precisely the server mechanic is working! and try to explain me why you would miss so much with such an high accuracy.

 

Asking why would Raiders have more mvt speed than Mages isn't the same as saying than Mages have more mvt speed than Raiders. The only difference seems to be the shoes! what a game breaking and unfair advantage! On top of that is that 90% of raiders use glorious (a set which has been recenly given the 300 mspeed bonus, whether mages indeed got a damage dealing set) so is safe to assume that any raider will have at the very least 335 more mspeed than any current mage (that without counting substat choices)

 

Else if we go back ontopic... your suggestions aren't that bad... indeed if mana shield has no dmg cap on it, it should be made the same way it is for regular HP bar... capped at 45%dmg. So this way, if you have 30k manashield, the max hit you could recieve at once would be 13500 instead of the 16k damage you are talking about! Tbh I didnt actually said the real amount of dmg my mage shield is taken bco is just ridiculous, just the other day I saw a 22k critical from an Axe champ so that dmg cap would actually benefit the mages A LOT.

About the mana shield HP bar... why not.

 

(btw, the reason why max damage you recieve once your shield is down is around 6k... is very probably because u must have around 13k HP)

Base HP on muse class is 2nd to last ofc they have low hp, either way HP is a sword of double edge, the more hp u get also the more dmg u can eat and since mages have no critical they will suffer from critical hits 90% of the time.

 


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#135 CharasX

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:24 AM

I never said that 3k accuracy = you always hit 90% of the time, I said that with your 3k acc, you should definitly hit on at least 90% of your skills, there s a difference between those 2 sentences.

I never said that Mages have more mvt speed than Raiders

Dodge is a defensive stat for absolutly every class... with more or less efficiency.

And yes, the healing effectiveness works very very well.

 

LunaXavier... you seem to be a lost case.

 

 

And carlosrose, I was not trolling when I gave opinion about your suggestions, 2.5k damage is already a big enough damage difference to actually be considered. But, because I got to try to make things right... I do have to correct you. At most, you can suffer from critical hits 50% of the time.


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#136 LunaXavier

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:39 AM

I never said that 3k accuracy = you always hit 90% of the time, I said that with your 3k acc, you should definitly hit on at least 90% of your skills, there s a difference between those 2 sentences.

I never said that Mages have more mvt speed than Raiders

Dodge is a defensive stat for absolutly every class... with more or less efficiency.

And yes, the healing effectiveness works very very well.

 

LunaXavier... you seem to be a lost case.

Dont lie now, we all know you've said them solid. And now you refusing u said those statements. 

If 90% of mage skills are hitting with 3k accu, mages will be getting kills all the time with the help of chain stuns. 

 

Less efficiency means dodge isnt useful at all for anything else other than hawkers? 

You dont seem to understand the mechanics,and just stating what you think is right.

Healing Effectiveness doesn't help when there is no time to heal during stun chains.

Got any more False Statements you wanna express?


Edited by LunaXavier, 18 June 2015 - 11:44 AM.

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#137 carlosrose

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:45 AM

I never said that 3k accuracy = you always hit 90% of the time, I said that with your 3k acc, you should definitly hit on at least 90% of your skills, there s a difference between those 2 sentences.

 

"And yes... with 3k acc skills miss extremly rarely... so 90% seems close enough to the reality to me"

"Mages can reach such a high accuracy that you could compare that to ... let s say 90% hit to the highest dodge achievable ingame."

"3k accuracy let you hit absolutly everything ingame with a 90% chance minimum."

"With 2.8k acc on my dual raider... I do not miss anyone. So I would assume that 3k won t miss either.Mmmm is that enough?

I never said that Mages have more mvt speed than Raiders

Dodge is a defensive stat for absolutly every class... with more or less efficiency. So you say that having 1k dodge is a "defensive stat"? .... Yeah how about no?

And yes, the healing effectiveness works very very well. One of my most played characters is my FS cleric and I can assure you that % is useless (if you played it you would know it)

 

LunaXavier... you seem to be a lost case. A lost case and by far one of the best FS, mage and Spear champ on game. I value her input on the matter WAY  more than the one from a raider.

 

 

And carlosrose, I was not trolling when I gave opinion about your suggestions, 2.5k damage is already a big enough damage difference to actually be considered. But, because I got to try to make things right... I do have to correct you. At most, you can suffer from critical hits 50% of the time. That 50% is BS and doesnt work like that in fact the higher the difference on critical between classes the greater number of criticals, that is y clerics and mages have such a hardtime when dealing with GB, scouts or katars And you can end up being "critical locked to death" a mayor problem that hasnt been addressed and probably wont.

 


Edited by carlosrose, 18 June 2015 - 11:54 AM.

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#138 kwayan19

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 04:33 PM

@charas ask your clannie worldmage why isnt he playing his mage anymore
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#139 KatsuraKujo

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 04:49 PM

Funny that this mage thread is so focused on PvP part of the game. *sigh* This is why i find ROSE too one sided at times.

Also did noone read what my assumption of how and why accu is different for melee types and skill types? Typical....

 

Guys, going off topic... Mage for me are already good as they are in PvP arenas. Sure it pisses you off cuz you die more than the other people. But you kill a lot and cause a lot of damage. Doesn't that at least have some balance output to what you are doing? Honestly, mages back then were also good, but now its kinda a little better, maybe a tad bit too much of a nerf on the mana shield. Stop arguing and just come up with numbers to fix the god damn problem already guys. Arguing isn't going to do anything if all of you aren't even making anything constructive suggestions and just flaming each other.

 

My main isn't a mage so i can't comment much about it. But from what i have experienced, the nerf was a little too much. I mean the forfited mana shield was great with 100% before for lowbies to lvl, but horrible for pvp. Now 75% is too little for lowbies to lvl, but most people say its "ok" for pvp.

 

Personally, i think pvp wise, it could use just a little more mana shield. Just a little. That's all the feedback i can give about mage. If you people want to keep on flaming on this kind of discussion, be my guest. It will never end.

 


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#140 kwayan19

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 02:51 AM

Well the one who made this thread is a pvper
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#141 jhepfoy

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 04:55 PM

WOW! So much information. Thanks you guys! I haven't finished reading the thread but I already gathered so much info. My main is also a Mage and I feel really weak and squishy at times and I want to cry every time that happens or whenever I die and feel powerless. Keep posting these kinda trends. It helps noobs like me in so many different levels and perspectives!  :no1:


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#142 VModCupcake

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 06:13 PM

WOW! So much information. Thanks you guys! I haven't finished reading the thread but I already gathered so much info. My main is also a Mage and I feel really weak and squishy at times and I want to cry every time that happens or whenever I die and feel powerless. Keep posting these kinda trends. It helps noobs like me in so many different levels and perspectives!  :no1:

I'm glad you are enjoying reading this thread but the topic is a year old.  Things change here pretty often and even bigger changes are coming. You should download the test server client and check it out to prepare for what's coming next.  The test server is called Pegasus and the download link is in the first post of this topic https://forums.warpp...s-open-for-all/

 

This is the thread with the latest information on Pegasus https://forums.warpp...es-for-pegasus/

It would probably benefit you to read that when you have time.so you can see what is being changed and the community reactions.

 

Closing topic 


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