318 replies to this topic

[Xellie]

The video is probably the worst part. I think you should remove that anyway.

 

Fair enough.

 

Hopefully it's enough for the staff to see how much this whole issue is ripping the community apart tho. It's really too stressful to keep dealing with.

 

It's like being forced into agreeing to a -_-ty change to game mechanics invalidating a lot of classes/removing elements of the game because a certain group of people decided it's "meta" and refuse to stop using it; forcing the staff to legalize it to make things fair?

 

so dumb

 

@acu: You want even comp? Did you consider not cheating?/not playing with cheaters?

Edited by Xellie, 28 June 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[zerowon]

Am against them putting in autopot ppl say dps is too high clearly mine wasn't as several odd support players were able to output my bios dps.
This could of been avoided had they hire a competitive manager or took someone from within the ranks. If you stating the woe environment is stale and boring for most have they seen how various guilds build rosters. In all honesty the whole scene needs a tear down and rebuild
EDIT : if everyone is concerned about this why don't we try the Kvm. Gear it reduces dps from champions and bios which are the two hugest dps according to vh survey followed by Meg lk and sin x if it's still a problem after we introduce kvm hen you can bring this back up for discussion

Edited by zerowon, 28 June 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[Acuwrex]

@acu: You want even comp? Did you consider not cheating?/not playing with cheaters?

 

I'm pretty sure you're very aware of my desire to have fair competition. However, in an open environment you cannot stop people from doing certain things. Whether it be restricted items to a PvP event, AHK in WoE, or AP in general.

 

We've already established AP is extremely difficult to prove/disprove in realistic scenarios. So that's why I'm for it. That and I don't think it breaks the game. I think it helps the game. Something like NDL breaks the game. It would be easier for the GMs to monitor the nastier stuff than to have to worry about whether or not someone is definitively autopotting.

[XPoke]

This whole discussion thread could be turned into a vote

 

1) Who enjoys playing with auto pot

 

2) who doesn't

 

 

and then just go with the more popular option

 

 

Rules change based on the average opinion. You can't really enforce a law when the majority does not agree with it.

 

I mean, how fast do you drive on the roads? Because I know I got a couple above the speed limit, and you get honked in my part of the world if you don't

 

 

At the end of the day, people will have different point of views based on their own life experience and understanding of the world. Can't really force opinions onto each other.

 

So can't everyone just agree that what the majority of the population wants, should be?

 

 

 

[Xellie]

I'm pretty sure you're very aware of my desire to have fair competition. However, in an open environment you cannot stop people from doing certain things. Whether it be restricted items to a PvP event, AHK in WoE, or AP in general.

 

We've already established AP is extremely difficult to prove/disprove in realistic scenarios. So that's why I'm for it. That and I don't think it breaks the game. I think it helps the game. Something like NDL breaks the game. It would be easier for the GMs to monitor the nastier stuff than to have to worry about whether or not someone is definitively autopotting.

 

I'm going to lose a lot of guildmembers if they enable autopot and I think it's a rather crappy mechanic. It invalidates a lot of wiz damage, destroys the usage of LKs, invalidates grimtooth, makes burst damage crit sinxs pointless, makes status arrowshower pointless, pushes mastersmiths further into oblivion...

 

Anyway;  if VH goes, and let's say valk alliance goes, who are you gonna fight exactly?
 

Edited by Xellie, 28 June 2015 - 01:34 PM.

[Acuwrex]

Am against them putting in autopot ppl say dps is too high clearly mine wasn't as several odd support players were able to output my bios dps.
This could of been avoided had they hire a competitive manager or took someone from within the ranks. If you stating the woe environment is stale and boring for most have they seen how various guilds build rosters. In all honesty the whole scene needs a tear down and rebuild

 

How do you know they didn't have a good SPP? Or weren't using AP? Perhaps your DPS wasn't optimal due to lack of certain buffs? Or maybe they were just good at potting, or had a GR/DR Card?

 

The reality is it could have happened for any of those reasons and you should be working with others to take a target down. The fact that AP can help prevent a lone "hero" from dropping someone without coordinating with their guild is all the more reason why it should be added. I think it encourages teamwork as well. It doesn't hurt to work with others so you can focus someone down.

Edited by Acuwrex, 28 June 2015 - 01:38 PM.

[Acuwrex]

I'm going to lose a lot of guildmembers if they enable autopot and I think it's a rather crappy mechanic. It invalidates a lot of wiz damage, destroys the usage of LKs, invalidates grimtooth, makes burst damage crit sinxs pointless, makes status arrowshower pointless, pushes mastersmiths further into oblivion...

 

Anyway;  if VH goes, and let's say valk alliance goes, who are you gonna fight exactly?
 

 

We already know AP is prevalent. Why haven't they quit yet?

 

I'm really not buying what you're selling. Isn't it being legal better than the toxicity that we're currently dealing with? People will get over it and realize the fact that they might lose WoE sometimes has nothing to do with AP and everything to do with their roster, teamplay, and strategy.

Edited by Acuwrex, 28 June 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[Sabaton]

 

This whole discussion thread could be turned into a vote

 

1) Who enjoys playing with auto pot

 

2) who doesn't

 

 

and then just go with the more popular option

 

 

Rules change based on the average opinion. You can't really enforce a law when the majority does not agree with it.

 

I mean, how fast do you drive on the roads? Because I know I got a couple above the speed limit, and you get honked in my part of the world if you don't

 

 

At the end of the day, people will have different point of views based on their own life experience and understanding of the world. Can't really force opinions onto each other.

 

So can't everyone just agree that what the majority of the population wants, should be?

 

 

A fair number of people who had given their opinion is either not experienced enough to understand the problem or totaly stubborn.

[Acuwrex]

A fair number of people who had given their opinion is either not experienced enough to understand the problem or totaly stubborn.

 

This x100

[Xellie]

We already know AP is prevalent. Why haven't the quit yet?

 

I'm really not buying what you're selling. Isn't it being legal better than the toxicity that we're currently dealing with? People will get over it and realize the fact that they might lose WoE sometimes has nothing to do with AP and everything to do with their roster, teamplay, and strategy.

 

cuz the majority of the server don't use it lmao, it's only certain groups.

 

related: the classic population rises when those people are absent too.

[Acuwrex]

cuz the majority of the server don't use it lmao, it's only certain groups.

 

related: the classic population rises when those people are absent too.

 

People use it in every guild. Just because it's legal and takes away people's "omg I lost because they cheat" card doesn't mean you have to change the way you run your guild. You can still realistically compete against a guild that is using AP vs a guild that is not using AP.

[dzmL]

You are all arguing simply to argue.

 

Unless the vast majority of players on classic weigh in opposing auto-pot, it will be legal by default simply because it is cost-free to implement. It is a call to arms and those playing manually are losing.

 

If you are for or against autopot, explain your side, propagate your propaganda and the larger side will win, or not, w/e. But arguing between yourselves about your opinions and views just distracts from the issue here and confirms how vile this community actually is.

[Xellie]

People use it in every guild. Just because it's legal and takes away people's "omg I lost because they cheat" card doesn't mean you have to change the way you run your guild. You can still realistically compete against a guild that is using AP vs a guild that is not using AP.

 

See, this is the part you don't seem to get

 

I've spent a lot of time fighting against most current guilds on classic and it's pretty easy to spot them. If I can wipe them with Meteor assault after recall, they're not autopotting. If I can cloak through and solo the emp, they're not using M***

 

There are infact, one or two individuals who we're able to call out from time to time. But these incidents are pretty rare tbh (to those guilds credit) and the same thing has/done happen with vh and newer members/temps.

 

We wouldn't have to change the way the guild is run? That would make them not be cheating? Sure, you're right, AP is only a small part of the problem, but we'd still have to look at people rerolling their current characters as they would become invalidated.

 

It has nothing to do with winning or losing either, we call it out no matter the outcome. I don't think I have ever let VH pull the "we can't win cuz cheats" card. It's something we have to consider in how to deal with it, but as a reason? no, not really. People have genuine concerns over how it changes the gameplay and not everything is about standing on one tile spamming the same skill over and over with little to no situational awareness with the biggest "skill" being to not misclick out.

[XPoke]

A fair number of people who had given their opinion is either not experienced enough to understand the problem or totaly stubborn.

 

I empathize with you.... but you can't really make the argument that "most people are ignorant" so my opinion matters more than theirs since... they ARE the majority, and the game should be catering to the common folk more so than the elitist few.

 

Like you said though, people are too stubborn. Actually both sides never even considered the other's opinion to begin with that much is blatantly obvious even to me. So trying to come to an understanding is pointless and just leads to finger pointing and name calling and all the garbage that causes thread derailment and locked threads.

 

So, instead of trying to reach an agreement, the only way to reach a solution is to agree on how we should decide on what to do.

 

At the end of the day, RO  is a game, people play games to find enjoyment (in most cases i hope), so the game should go with the option that provides the most enjoyment for the masses, whichever that may be.

 

I personally don't care enough about either/or, I'll find a way to enjoy the game if i can, if not i won't play. It's pretty straightforward.

 

Well, that's just my opinion. I'm a nobody, which already cause a good amount of people here to discredit my points anyways.

[Acuwrex]

See, this is the part you don't seem to get

 

I've spent a lot of time fighting against most current guilds on classic and it's pretty easy to spot them. If I can wipe them with Meteor assault after recall, they're not autopotting. If I can cloak through and solo the emp, they're not using M***

 

There are infact, one or two individuals who we're able to call out from time to time. But these incidents are pretty rare tbh (to those guilds credit) and the same thing has/done happen with vh and newer members/temps.

 

We wouldn't have to change the way the guild is run? That would make them not be cheating? Sure, you're right, AP is only a small part of the problem, but we'd still have to look at people rerolling their current characters as they would become invalidated.

 

It has nothing to do with winning or losing either, we call it out no matter the outcome. I don't think I have ever let VH pull the "we can't win cuz cheats" card. It's something we have to consider in how to deal with it, but as a reason? no, not really. People have genuine concerns over how it changes the gameplay and not everything is about standing on one tile spamming the same skill over and over with little to no situational awareness with the biggest "skill" being to not misclick out.

 

Can you tell me what classes would be invalidated and how your tactics would have to change if AP were made legal? And this is assuming everyone were to use it, despite the fact that when something becomes legal does not mean everyone will do it.

Edited by Acuwrex, 28 June 2015 - 01:57 PM.

[XPoke]

Can you tell me what classes would be invalidated and how your tactics would have to change if AP were made legal? And this is assuming everyone were to use it, despite the fact that when something becomes legal does not mean everyone will do it.

 

I think he mentioned that it would make wizard damage more manageable, crit sins / lord knights and smiths would become about as useful as a merc scroll (i'm paraphrasing) 

[Xellie]

Can you tell me what classes would be invalidated and how your tactics would have to change if AP were made legal? And this is assuming everyone were to use it, despite the fact that when something becomes legal does not mean everyone will do it.

 

You didn't read it the first time I posted it... so I won't post it again.

 

Anyway, this is my final word on this.

 

Mechanically and technically I understand it's extremely hard to enforce, so I'm pro-autopot on that

As someone who takes pride in multitasking / field awareness / jumping people with surprise damage, I'm anti-autopot.

As someone who deals with a large community and hearing the reactions of friends, I'm anti-autopot until they feel otherwise.

 

The reason is if we change nothing about the actual game, then people won't leave anymore than they have been.

Change things and losses are guaranteed.

 

So bring on more GMs (and nail those nodelayers too)

Edited by Xellie, 28 June 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[Acuwrex]

I think he mentioned that it would make wizard damage more manageable, crit sins / lord knights and smiths would become about as useful as a merc scroll (i'm paraphrasing) 

 

Those are already countered by SPP though. Even with AP/SPP, most of those things can still be relevant.

[Sabaton]

I empathize with you.... but you can't really make the argument that "most people are ignorant" so my opinion matters more than theirs since... they ARE the majority, and the game should be catering to the common folk more so than the elitist few.

 

Like you said though, people are too stubborn. Actually both sides never even considered the other's opinion to begin with that much is blatantly obvious even to me. So trying to come to an understanding is pointless and just leads to finger pointing and name calling and all the garbage that causes thread derailment and locked threads.

 

So, instead of trying to reach an agreement, the only way to reach a solution is to agree on how we should decide on what to do.

 

At the end of the day, RO  is a game, people play games to find enjoyment (in most cases i hope), so the game should go with the option that provides the most enjoyment for the masses, whichever that may be.

 

I personally don't care enough about either/or, I'll find a way to enjoy the game if i can, if not i won't play. It's pretty straightforward.

 

Well, that's just my opinion. I'm a nobody, which already cause a good amount of people here to discredit my points anyways.

 

Several people demonstrated why every proposal made by anti-AP clan was wrong or useless. 

delay on pot > not fixing the problem in any way, and meta-breaking

i'll quit if AP is legalized > AP is already legal, nobody got banned for years, byebye

ap changes meta > yes, at the margin

disable potions, buff heal, increase WoE damage reduction up to 74,2%, nerf Acid Bomb > I'm not failing for the bait, I'll ignore this.

status quo is fine > AP is de facto legal

catch/warn/ban AP users > not possible, not realistic

 

btw I'm a nobody too, my highest char is a lvl  96 hunter with a 40M debt on Classic

[Acuwrex]

You didn't read it the first time I posted it... so I won't post it again.

 

Anyway, this is my final word on this.

 

Mechanically and technically I understand it's extremely hard to enforce, so I'm pro-autopot on that

As someone who takes pride in multitasking / field awareness / jumping people with surprise damage, I'm anti-autopot.

As someone who deals with a large community and hearing the reactions of friends, I'm anti-autopot until they feel otherwise.

 

The reason is if we change nothing about the actual game, then people won't leave anymore than they have been.

Change things and losses are guaranteed.

 

So bring on more GMs (and nail those nodelayers too)

 

Alright. My final word to you on the subject is this.

 

Change is inevitable. Growth is optional. People are inherently afraid of change.

 

The current state is cancer. We need change.

[Xellie]

Alright. My final word to you on the subject is this.

 

Change is inevitable. Growth is optional. People are inherently afraid of change.

 

The current state is cancer. We need change.

 

Bad analogy if you ever knew anyone who has had chemo/radiotherapy.

[Acuwrex]

Touche, but still relevant. I'm sure we can all agree something needs to change.

[Xandyzor]

I dont read all the posts but is simple:

 

If you put this, the server will die.

[Acuwrex]

I dont read all the posts

 

You probably should. It might enlighten you.

[KingOfJokerz]

Automated Potion use being made legal... Sounds like botting to me. Slippery slopes...

"But King, it's not playing the game for you... It's just helping you play the game... By doing a mechanic that you're supposed to be able to perform by yourself so you don't have to... Totally different from playing the game for you."

  wat

If cheaters are gonna cheat, perhaps we should try to implement a way to detect auto-potters and ban/suspend them instead of join them?