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WoE Rebalance and Event WoEs


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#1 Campitor

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 09:53 AM

So as the holiday season is coming up it is time for us to plan for event WoEs.

 

I also would like to take this opportunity to try some rebalanceing to WoE with an eye towards making them more lasting changes to the WoE Scene.

 

The process will go as follows

 

We open classic Sakray with the rebalance changes. You get to test them out. Play with them. Try them out.

We make them live with the event woes. If players like them we keep them. If players don't we throw them out. Event WoEs are the most useful time to beta test these things.

 

 

Section 1 - Gods and MVP cards

God items and MVP cards are supposed to be end tier times. They are supposed to be all powerful and getting one is the apex of your character's career. However due to this they are rather imbalanced when it comes to WoE and small numbers.

 

There are multiple ways to address this.

1. Increase the supply of God Items and MVP cards in WoE - This is an extreme measure that would make it more balanced if everyone has them.

2. Remove God Items and MVP cards from WoE - This is an extreme measure that will punish players who based builds completely around these items.

3. Reduce the effects of God Items and MVP Cards in WoE - A more balanced measure. The idea is that these cards and items maintain their supremacy but are brought down to be more inline with the general items in the game.

 

Because I would like to believe I have some sanity left I think we should go with option 3.

 

Example,

 

Hibram Card

  • Current Effects
    • MATK + 10%
    • SP Max -50%
    • MATK vrs Angel + 50%
    • MATK vrs Demuhuman + 50%

 

  • WoE Effects
    • MATK + 10%
    • SP Max -50%
    • MATK vrs Angel + 20%
    • MATK vrs Demuhuman + 20%

 

Bad example I created ignore it, just archived so players may laugh.

Spoiler

 

Obviously these values can be changed as we test. Now before we start on this what are your thoughts? Concerns? Keep it Civil! If you cannot I will remove your access to foundry threads.

 

 

 


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#2 Xellie

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:49 AM

Nice buffs to GTB :no1: I'm glad you're seriously thinking about making this into an actual powerful card.

 

Can we get a % increase to offset the loss of dispell immunity? Say, 10% vs angel and holy would be good.


Edited by Xellie, 20 November 2015 - 11:53 AM.

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#3 Heart

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:50 AM

Increase the number of god items and mvp card for Event WoEs?

That although sounds pretty damn crazy, might just be fun(?).

As long as precautions are taken that these things don't malfunction ( something something dupe dupe)

 

Removing God items and MvP cards aren't really a bad idea for Event woes either, should be interesting.

 

Reducing effectiveness, I don't know, its a good idea, but like its an Event WoE, that doesn't sound much....fun.

But it might just be a nice way to check how balanced the new effects are.

 

Also are these the only event WoEs planned, or do you people have other things like pre-trans woe, etc. Planned as well.


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#4 Campitor

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:00 PM

Also camp, just for you

 

You're making it so we can be buffed and sp fed whilst being immune to magic, you're removing the drawbacks ^.~

tldr; you buffed it. Insanely.

Thank you, then the GTB card is a bad example to use and may need to be left alone or if it is a problem making it a flickering shield where it has a chance to make a user immune for a duration on receiving a magic attack.

 

 

But the question still stands is this a balancing project the community would be interested in seeing tested on Classic Sakray/event WoE?


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#5 Xellie

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:02 PM

Sorry

 

brb gonna mop up all the drool over Valhalla's castle floor now.

 

edit: back on topic

You don't seem to understand the reason behind using gtb. It's about dispell and hitlock. The draw backs such as no status recovery, less status resistance, more incoming damage are pretty huge. The only way I could see it being balanced as a flickering shield would require it to be something that the user can turn on and off with a massive sp drain or something. But everyone highly underestimates the draw backs of wearing a gtb. I can post a tribute to the times I've worn a gtb frozen and died because of fist, or can't get status reco've out of stun or freeze, or even one shot by acid bomb.

It is an item you can only understand if you use it. You certainly do not default it... or you make things worse. I am a bad player, I know all about it's drawbacks.

 

gtb is not about damage mitigation. It's about dispell mitigation. To which I'd like to point out there is no other counter.

 

Also this:

 

1. Increase the supply of God Items and MVP cards in WoE - This is an extreme measure that would make it more balanced if everyone has them.

 

 

I hope you seriously don't believe that. Balance implies something goes both ways. If you flood the server with say, megingjards, it isn't more balanced just because everyone can one shot eachother faster. It's more imbalanced toward stupidity.

 

I say create defensive god items. If you want balance, then COUNTER the items, don't just go makin them more sillier.


Edited by Xellie, 20 November 2015 - 12:12 PM.

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#6 Xellie

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:10 PM

I think event WoEs are the way forward for testing, since I do not think its feasible to march people over to sakray to try things in a full-scale scenario.


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#7 Campitor

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:12 PM

I think event WoEs are the way forward for testing, since I do not think its feasible to march people over to sakray to try things in a full-scale scenario.

The use of Sakray would be fine tuning effects before we put them in on an event WoE.


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#8 Xellie

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 12:17 PM

So out of curiosity how does gtb skill blocking work? Is it a global thing or listed skill by skill?


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#9 Campitor

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 01:25 PM

So out of curiosity how does gtb skill blocking work? Is it a global thing or listed skill by skill?

Its a flag being set to true.


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#10 Xellie

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 01:58 PM

Per skill? If so that makes proposing new gtb effects a bit easier


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#11 Campitor

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 02:20 PM

Per skill? If so that makes proposing new gtb effects a bit easier

no its FullSpellImmunity Yes? No?


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#12 Xellie

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 02:34 PM

Then you can't maintain it's disadvantage when you remove the advantage


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#13 Themes

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 03:29 PM

I do not think this is the right way to start fixing sieges.


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#14 ChakriGuard

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 03:32 PM

I dont WoE in Classic but do this in Renewal too please  :heh:

 

There are multiple ways to address this.

1. Increase the supply of God Items and MVP cards in WoE - This is an extreme measure that would make it more balanced if everyone has them.

2. Remove God Items and MVP cards from WoE - This is an extreme measure that will punish players who based builds completely around these items.

3. Reduce the effects of God Items and MVP Cards in WoE - A more balanced measure. The idea is that these cards and items maintain their supremacy but are brought down to be more inline with the general items in the game.

 

 


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#15 needmorezleep

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 03:33 PM

just remove all the defensive related mvp/mini cards like dr, gtb, tao, gr they tend to make classes extremely boring for the people they fight against of course i talk about se when i say this not fe

 

i think gods may be fine they make some classes a bit more relevant that lost a lot of their usage since gravity started adding heavy reductions to the game like sinx ,lks, and champs


Edited by needmorezleep, 20 November 2015 - 04:10 PM.

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#16 zerowon

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 05:03 PM

( Spot reserved for when am at a pc )
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#17 DorianGray01

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 05:42 PM

So as the holiday season is coming up it is time for us to plan for event WoEs.

 

I also would like to take this opportunity to try some rebalanceing to WoE with an eye towards making them more lasting changes to the WoE Scene.

 

The process will go as follows

 

We open classic Sakray with the rebalance changes. You get to test them out. Play with them. Try them out.

We make them live with the event woes. If players like them we keep them. If players don't we throw them out. Event WoEs are the most useful time to beta test these things.

 

 

Section 1 - Gods and MVP cards

God items and MVP cards are supposed to be end tier times. They are supposed to be all powerful and getting one is the apex of your character's career. However due to this they are rather imbalanced when it comes to WoE and small numbers.

 

There are multiple ways to address this.

1. Increase the supply of God Items and MVP cards in WoE - This is an extreme measure that would make it more balanced if everyone has them.

2. Remove God Items and MVP cards from WoE - This is an extreme measure that will punish players who based builds completely around these items.

3. Reduce the effects of God Items and MVP Cards in WoE - A more balanced measure. The idea is that these cards and items maintain their supremacy but are brought down to be more inline with the general items in the game.

 

Because I would like to believe I have some sanity left I think we should go with option 3.

 

Example,

 

Hibram Card

  • Current Effects
    • MATK + 10%
    • SP Max -50%
    • MATK vrs Angel + 50%
    • MATK vrs Demuhuman + 50%

 

  • WoE Effects
    • MATK + 10%
    • SP Max -50%
    • MATK vrs Angel + 20%
    • MATK vrs Demuhuman + 20%

 

Bad example I created ignore it, just archived so players may laugh.

Spoiler

 

Obviously these values can be changed as we test. Now before we start on this what are your thoughts? Concerns? Keep it Civil! If you cannot I will remove your access to foundry threads.

 

Hmmm, what about Golden Thief Bug card users? I think reducing the effectiveness of the GTB during siege would heavily benefit smaller guilds that have no magic immune players? How about people wearing GTB get 50% less dmg from magic? Or even better GTB effect = 50mdef.

Taking into consideration that there are a lot more GTBs on the server than hibrams that would be really nice for small guilds such as mine!


Edited by DorianGray01, 20 November 2015 - 05:46 PM.

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#18 weeyam

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 06:02 PM

option 3 sir and reduce the effect by 50% that would be work fine and for the immunity for magic of GTB i think reduce to 50% of receive magic attack damage is good :D

 


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#19 Xellie

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 07:32 PM

If you give gtb 50mdef you're making it stronger. It would allow immunity to magic and freeze at the same time.... (so no more frost joking me when I run past with GR on). It would allow the user to be buffed and stat reco'd instead of that completely being blocked. Over 100 hard mdef = immunity to the damage too. So not only would you be taking zero damage from magic, but you can be stat reco'd buffed sped.... and immune to freeze and stone curse.

 

Stop asking to buff gtb guys. It's a REALLY bad idea.  There's not much wrong with it, just frost joke or just throw bombs.

 

We're talking about fundamental RO physics here. I also don't see why something as powerful as hibram should allow a "small guild" to one shot a large one but a single player shouldn't be able to bypass what should be no more than 1/5 of your damage at the expensive of taking 30% more from others.#

 

By all means keep suggesting it... but it will only make it more powerful.

 

reducing the effectiveness of the GTB during siege would heavily benefit smaller guilds that have no magic immune players

 

Um, how does that benefit them? Your own guilds lack of immunity to magic has absolutely zero effect on the other side's magic immune players. You could, perhaps, reroll a wizard to a bomber or a champ or a sinx. Just suggesting things, may not work, my experience in these things is very little and I've never led a woe guild.


Edited by Xellie, 20 November 2015 - 07:41 PM.

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#20 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:46 PM

Keep GTB as-is because the negative effects are pretty overwhelming when you compare them to the positives. No friendly buffs double SP cost status vulnerability no redux et cetera. It has far more usefulness in PvM than GvG @_@

 

I like the idea for Hibram.

 

Nerf Little Feather Hat so that the base CRIT boost is 5%, and remove the additional Sharp Arrow bonus. Atm CRIT build SinX can put out atrociously high damage under WoE redux - with DPS akin to a bomber, at 12-15k a hit after GR + Asprika, and capable of pushing over anyone without a blazing fast pot macro and some squishies with just a touch - almost solely due to the CRIT stacking of this hat.

 

Also for the sake of actually having decent fights where an entire guild doesn't pop as soon as ME goes down, nerf Skull Cap so that the staff refine doesn't contribute to MATK stacking. It was very silly porting it over with Renewal-esque effects like that.

 

Random non-item things that probably can't be done because iRO doesn't have source access, but I think would actually improve WoE somewhat

Spoiler


Edited by AlmrOfAtlas, 20 November 2015 - 11:27 PM.

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#21 needmorezleep

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:56 PM

2 can actually be done but they will need to hire a dev familiar with downgrading games to have it happen without any source the bomb thing i mean

 

reducing magic damage by 50% would probably be a safe choice without crippling the item but is there any effect that does this currently? i cant seem to find anything with a script like that =(


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#22 kingarthur6687

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:58 PM

Rephrasing what Xellie wrote, 50 mdef is "too stronk" because hard def and mdef in Pre-Renewal reduce damage by simple percentage. So 1 hard def/mdef = 1% damage reduction, 100 hard def/mdef = 100% damage reduction (aka you take no damage).

This is most obviously seen in how Mental Strength works, where Mental Strength sets a Monk/Champion's hard def/mdef to 90 each giving the Monk/Champion 90% damage reduction before factoring in other damage modifiers from resistance cards and such.

The suggestion of -50% magic damage is probably worthy of debate since that would act separately from hard mdef, but I agree with Xellie that just giving a player a whole 50 hard mdef is going to possibly wreck more havoc than GTB's absolute magic immunity. Hard def/mdef in Pre-Renewal is very effective especially when stacked, unlike with Renewal.
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#23 Xellie

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 11:15 PM

Rephrasing what Xellie wrote, 50 mdef is "too stronk" because hard def and mdef in Pre-Renewal reduce damage by simple percentage. So 1 hard def/mdef = 1% damage reduction, 100 hard def/mdef = 100% damage reduction (aka you take no damage).

This is most obviously seen in how Mental Strength works, where Mental Strength sets a Monk/Champion's hard def/mdef to 90 each giving the Monk/Champion 90% damage reduction before factoring in other damage modifiers from resistance cards and such.

The suggestion of -50% magic damage is probably worthy of debate since that would act separately from hard mdef, but I agree with Xellie that just giving a player a whole 50 hard mdef is going to possibly wreck more havoc than GTB's absolute magic immunity. Hard def/mdef in Pre-Renewal is very effective especially when stacked, unlike with Renewal.

 

Plus hard mdef's affect on status resist.

 

The thing to me is that GTB is the only resistance out there to dispell and lets all be honest, GTB users use GTB not for magic mitigation (there are other, better, ways that don't involve losing a cranial), but for the resistance to dispell.

 

Unfortunately the GTB item can't have the skill resistances separated.

 

And quite frankly, 99% of the time that someone whines about GTB, it's because they didn't sight the door. Now I'mma tell you all a secret. I take my GTB off when rushing precasts that have sight so that meteor storm breaks fiber and I don't get stuck in CP. Also sonic blow and grimtooth and acid bomb are bs.

 

So what you're really asking for a nerf to is cranial valk shields D:


Edited by Xellie, 20 November 2015 - 11:18 PM.

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#24 Synapsse

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 11:24 PM

leave everything as is and don't make any changes.

 

 


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#25 AlmrOfAtlas

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 11:35 PM

leave everything as is and don't make any changes.

 

You think WoE is currently balanced, sustainable, and open to new guild entries? <snip>


Edited by VModCinnamon, 21 November 2015 - 07:36 AM.
Should be enough.

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