144 replies to this topic

[Campitor]

Okay so I have been doing some reading up on everyone's comments that I could find both here and in the foundry and I think I am ready to setup classic Sakray for testing.

 

To sum up what I have read.

Common Complaints

1. Guild Power Creep. As guilds amass wealth and items they slowly concentrate power in their ranks. Currently there nothing that can really help get a new guild started in the WoE scene.
2. AoE Pre Cast. In WoE1 when charging through a portal due to the power creep anything less than a GTB Shield tends to die instantly.
3. Treasures. This wasn't discussed as much but treasures are always an issue since the beginning of the server.
4. Guilds per castles we don't have the population density
5. Stuff to do midweek
6. Attack Power Creep

 

To address them at one at a time.

1. Guild Power Creep. We will be revisiting the idea of Basic WoE Gear but also looking at a way to introduce a quest element to it. The quests will involve teaching how and where to hunt guild supplies for these WoE recruits future guild leaders.

2. AoE Pre Cast. We have been delving into the map settings card effects and other things related to WoE and it seems the best way to address this is to test slightly reducing the damage out put of ranged attacks. The goal would not to be stop pre casts but to make it so that fights can happen.. some times.

3. More on this later.

4. Play around with reducing castles by 1 per realm.

5. The idea of this is to boost member involvement in a guild by providing more avenues for players to help their guild if they wished to do so.

• Quests provided by castle stewards to members of the HOLDING guild. These quests would increase the hunting efficiency of a character for supplies once every 5 days.
• Quests provided by black market npcs. With a cost these npc would increase the hunting efficiency of any character for supplies once every 10 days.

6. It was pointed out by a few players that most items only seem to increase the killer aspect of WoE. Looking at developing or introducing already made gear that is designed to make WoE more survivable against specialized conditions. 

 

Classic Sakray will be coming up tonight

Current WoE Reductions:

50% all

70% ranged

 

Testing WoE Reductions:

50% all

80% ranged

 

In regards to gear there are no plans to change the effect of cards/equipment just yet.

 

 

[Undying]

Can you elaborate on #2 and what the proposed changes are? 

 

For gear changes and/or treasure there should def be a discussion before anything is done. 

 

Let us help you to help us

[Campitor]

Can you elaborate on #2 and what the proposed changes are? 

Current WoE Reductions:

50% all

70% ranged

 

Testing WoE Reductions:

50% all

80% ranged

[Campitor]

Okay gotta do some more testing I am not sure how it is calculating the reductions on the thing.

 

On the live it is set to ALL reduce to 50%

RANGED reduce to 80%

I am not sure how the formula works and need to test this tomorrow to get the accurate reductions.

 

 

[rojoky113]

I seem to remember way back in the day before renewal, skill reduction in woe was -40% wasn't it? Like you did 60% of your non-woe damage? I seem to remember that number very distinctly. When did it become 50%? Or am I just crazy here...

 

Can't remember if magic ever got a further reduction.

 

Taking the ranged reduction from 70 to 80, if those are indeed the current numbers, means basically you are cutting the current ranged damage people do by 1/3. That might be a little much idk.

 

EDIT: That has to be the damage being done not what's reduced, no way anything is reduced by 70% in woe right now..

Edited by rojoky113, 10 December 2015 - 08:33 PM.

[Scott]

Please elaborate on quests for where to hunt for guild supplies. It sounds as though getting supplies will be just as tedious.

[Campitor]

I seem to remember way back in the day before renewal, skill reduction in woe was -40% wasn't it? Like you did 60% of your non-woe damage? I seem to remember that number very distinctly. When did it become 50%? Or am I just crazy here...

 

Can't remember if magic ever got a further reduction.

 

Taking the ranged reduction from 70 to 80, if those are indeed the current numbers, means basically you are cutting the current ranged damage people do by 1/3. That might be a little much.

Going to be doing some testing. Not sure if its something like

 

Check if Ranged Value

 Use Ranged Reduction

Else

 Use ALL Reduction

 

 

OR 

Use ALL Reduction

Use Ranged Reduction

Please elaborate on quests for where to hunt for guild supplies. It sounds as though getting supplies will be just as tedious.

It would be the same activities done to gather supplies just that much more fruitful during the period.

[ceinchase]

ask kebtung

I spit chocolate milk on my white blouse, you jerk

[Undying]

Problem with reducing damage from range that much is this...

 

Yes, it might help vs precast conditions. However, it is going to redo guild lineups as a whole. I am unsure of that being the best course of action. It will further push people to just play champs (1 shot ko, melee) and tarot card (rng game) due to limiting damage from biochemists (should be main source of dps). 

 

Yes the proposed solution, in a specific situation of precasts, would successfully nerf the "power" of mvp cards and teamwork. The problem is that it spills over into every other situation in WoE. In a non precast situation (which most of WoE is) it will hinder the ability to fight at a range and will seriously make champ/rng tarot/gd the main/only way of killing people. There will be the exception of sinx, but there are only a couple sinx to worry about being successful at attacking and not dying immediately. 

 

Just some concerns.

[Xellie]

Tarot/GD is the main way afaik....

 

Also GD can go to hell

[rojoky113]

Courtesy of guildmate:

 

irowiki 2008 pre renewal:All skill based damage with the exception of Gloria Domini and Gravitational Field is reduced by 40%.

All physical (non-skill based) attacks are reduced by 30%.

All long-range attacks are reduced by 25%. This does not stack with long-range skill attacks (these are just reduced by 40%).

 

This matches pretty much exactly what I remember. I think currently we are doing less damage than we are supposed to even, not more. And ranged is supposed to get 25% more reduction after 40% skill reduction, sounds like server numbers are currently 50/30 instead?

 

Honestly with the extra gear we have flying around and the abundance of mvps/gods, the extra reduction we currently have probably balances out some.

 

Not sure how to digest all that when even further reduction is on the table, I don't think it's necessarily a good idea. Hate to say it but if your issue is that there are precasts and aoe magic that are wiping whole guilds and you don't like it and you're intent on changing something, toning down FBH might be the real answer as much as I don't like the idea of opening up the nerf can of worms. Most of the complaints seem to be directly or indirectly involving that card.

 

 

Edited by rojoky113, 10 December 2015 - 07:08 PM.

[Xellie]

on the plus side a total damage reduction would lead to the ability to introduce new gear w/o too much powercreep? Maybe?

[rojoky113]

It's already more than it is supposed to be, and we kind of have already done that considering we have gears like skull caps and little feather hats and mental potions/voh etc. that are increasing damage by like 10-20% so the extra woe reduction sorta balances it out somewhat.

 

I don't think a further overall reduction of damage is really a great idea tbh. But we can play around with it and see.

 

Even unofficial servers I have seen have a tendency to tone down FBH even if they don't change anything else. Even if it was made to be like 25% instead it would still be very powerful. And like I said, most complaints including what camp said seem to be directly or indirectly about precasts/magic aoe wiping people too easily and that's pretty clearly pointing at FBH without saying it. I'd rather one card everyone knows is very, very powerful be toned down if it's causing problems instead of smacking the whole entire woe meta with a ranged reduction if that isn't where the problem is.

 

Or change nothing, I'd even take that first. Remember what I said earlier about the other side of the coin of tanky characters solo-ing guilds and not dying despite pretty absurd focus fire, you know all about this. A change would make that situation even worse, you would just be shafting the newbies in a different way. There are obviously some things on classic right now dealing some concerning damage but I would rather people be dying than people be unkillable (the renewal method of balance, lol), no thanks please.

Edited by rojoky113, 10 December 2015 - 07:20 PM.

[Xellie]

TEST ALL THE THINGS \o/

[rojoky113]

Also very possible that those numbers mean skills and ranged non-skill attacks, and melee is getting no reduction despite it being supposed to according to the prerenewal wiki. Might be the answer to crit sins as well, tested it in pvp last night and I could outpot a megged crit sin with assump but not without. If melee got the reduction it supposedly should crit sins would become more appropriately survivable.

EDIT: also camp can we get an update on the plan for dealing with the large number of illegit mvp cards running around? Preetty big deal, especially with this big long thread talking about how to deal with the problems of how abundant and powerful they are...

Just saying, that is definitely not all because of classics drop rates. That never should have applied to mvps/gods in the first place but that's spilt milk at this point.

Edited by rojoky113, 11 December 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[Campitor]

Reductions Testing Results

Currently the live reductions are as follows

Ranged Damage reduced to 80% aka RR

All Skill Damage reduced to 50% SR

 

Testing with a hunter

RR

SR 

Base damage 30-50ish

Double Strafe damage 80-120ish

 

RR ONLY

Base 30-50ish

Double Strafe 170-250

 

SR

Base 40-60ish

Double Strafe 80-120ish

 

No Reductions

Base 40-60

Double Strafe 170-250

 

Conclusion the two reduction values do not stack.

 

[Campitor]

During testing we also found that despite having a display damage flag, the siege flag overwrites whatever that is set to so for testing siege experience we must hide damage.

[rojoky113]

Looks like those are the ranged and skill reductions from original prerenewal reductions even if they are the wrong values, and the melee reduction is missing.

Any chance of the melee reduction being able to be added back in? See what I said above about crit sins.

I don't think the skill reduction should be "fixed" to 40% given classics extra gear and the abundance of high end gear due to drop rates (though my fist for example calcs higher at 40% reduction without voh/mental pots than it does at 50% with), but I also don't think a further damage reduction is a good idea. That will badly throw off the balance of characters that aren't double megged and mvp carded, ie new players who are already dealing 1/6 less damage than they should, against an abundance of gr/dr/tao/asprika/gtb/etc. Again see what I said before about being unable to kill tanky characters. Either tone down only the specific items or effects that you think are causing there to be an actual problem or don't do anything.

Also, illegit mvp card cleanout. For the love of all that is holy this really really needs to be done as an ongoing thing doesn't matter if its hard or obnoxious.

Edited by rojoky113, 11 December 2015 - 12:11 PM.

[Undying]

Don't nerf melee reduction. Asprikas alone (server has more asprikas then woe players) nerf all melee so badly. It is hard enough to run melee characters (non champ) and be successful at dealing damage. Thinking of lord Knights in general.

There is no reason at all to redo the mechanics of the game because a precast is "hard" to break. FBH OP? Sure. Some MVP cards and some gods are OP. It's the entire point of the game.

Redoing the fundamentals of the game will start a cascade effect. Not the way to go about this.

This is what will solve the FBH "problem". Trace MVP cards and remove illegal/illegit ones. Why won't that happen? Because that requires the staff to invest a -_- ton of time into fixing problems. It is the right thing to do. Redoing woe reductions is the laziest bandaid fix possible.

Other then that, interesting info about your tests so far.

[rojoky113]

The melee reduction is non-skill reduction, as in bowling bash won't change but crit sins will. Is there any other noteworthy woe build that relies on autoing?

What might be a bigger concern is break times changing if melee reduction is put (back) in.

Honestly when I tested it I did not wear an asprika, that might not have been enough to save me though and I had to prepot to live. High vit character would prolly have been ok though, and crit sins are glass cannon as heck and face additional counters like root. Wouldn't be the end of the world if they didn't get the reduction.

Super duper agree on removing illegit mvp cards obviously. And that changing all woe reductions is not the solution.

Edited by rojoky113, 11 December 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Campitor]

The melee reduction is non-skill reduction, as in bowling bash won't change but crit sins will. Is there any other noteworthy woe build that relies on autoing?

What might be a bigger concern is break times changing if melee reduction is put (back) in.

Something to test would be does double attack count as a skill or a melee attack for reduction settings.

[rojoky113]

I'm betting it counts as melee, otherwise double attacks would drop dps instead of improving them. Or mathematically I guess they would unaffect dps but people use snake hat for example and do more damage than without pretty sure.

Edited by rojoky113, 11 December 2015 - 12:47 PM.

[needmorezleep]

if its about precasting being op disable classical punk? the defending side can just have a wizard casting ganbantein to counter earth

also bit of a random thing but ever think about making fe guardians useful? you buy them once they do horrible damage and once they die they dont come back

[Campitor]

Okay double attack doesn't count as skill damage. It is pure melee for sins.

[Myzery]

if its about precasting being op disable classical punk? the defending side can just have a wizard casting ganbantein to counter earth

also bit of a random thing but ever think about making fe guardians useful? you buy them once they do horrible damage and once they die they dont come back

 

Disabling CP on all servers would be a good thing.