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Intelligent discussion about raiders


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#1 Irtofu

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:54 PM

Since everyone is brining up balancing issues, theres some about raiders,

There should be something done about burn and poison effects, you can keep on constantly spamming the skill and overall the skill damage over time is way too much just for one skill 500 damage per sec for 8 seconds + on average 1.5k base damage= 5.5k damage just for one skill which is spammable + adding that raiders now can tank as well as or better then knights, such high damage should not be mixed with a class that can practically tank as well or better then a knight. Also the fact that it is the only skill besides poison that can deal that large amount of damage no matter how much defense a class has. Also some other thoughts , raiders stealth glitch should be fixed which allows them practically to be cloaked forever even when they are decloaked unless they are skilled.

Some suggestions

reduce the damage burn does per second 250-300 damage/sec
put the same cooldown timer with poison and burn skills for raiders
increase the cooldown timer of burn skills so it is not spamable
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#2 Phish

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:57 PM

Increasing the cooldown is probably the best option so it's not spammable. The burns are the main offense raiders have against champs and knights and reducing the damage will limit them against them.



And raiders don't tank better than knights...
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#3 poopiehead

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:19 PM

Since everyone is brining up balancing issues, theres some about raiders,

There should be something done about burn and poison effects, you can keep on constantly spamming the skill and overall the skill damage over time is way too much just for one skill 500 damage per sec for 8 seconds + on average 1.5k base damage= 5.5k damage just for one skill which is spammable + adding that raiders now can tank as well as or better then knights, such high damage should not be mixed with a class that can practically tank as well or better then a knight. Also the fact that it is the only skill besides poison that can deal that large amount of damage no matter how much defense a class has. Also some other thoughts , raiders stealth glitch should be fixed which allows them practically to be cloaked forever even when they are decloaked unless they are skilled.

Some suggestions

reduce the damage burn does per second 250-300 damage/sec
put the same cooldown timer with poison and burn skills for raiders
increase the cooldown timer of burn skills so it is not spamable


the burn isnt that bad, raiders still die to other classes ezily with the current burn.
and raiders dont tanks NEARLY as much as a knight...

Edited by poopiehead, 29 November 2010 - 11:20 PM.

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#4 Span

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:22 PM

If the attacker has more accuracy , knights tank better then raiders ...

Edited by Span, 29 November 2010 - 11:22 PM.

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#5 tENLAVUU

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:00 AM

Um I'm sorry but where do you get that raiders tank better than knights? The only thing that gives raiders a chance vs knights are their burns.
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#6 ChickenBucket

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:47 AM

there is no such thing as an intelligent discussion on this forum knowing how biased 95% of the people are here,they dont want their class to be "balanced" just look at the people that use champs for example :>
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#7 Irtofu

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:50 AM

Um I'm sorry but where do you get that raiders tank better than knights? The only thing that gives raiders a chance vs knights are their burns.


From the fact that they do better overall from the following categories PVM, PVP(selff buff), PVP(With Cleric buffs)

PVM in most maps where knights take damage raiders with their dodge take zero damage
PVP(self buff) name one class that can effectively deal full damage to a raider with full dodge gear, im not talking about that half damage stuff.
PVP(with Cleric buffs) why do you even call knights tanks when a raider can take out a knight solo? Guess this game has turned into something where a tank is considered a person who can only tank one person.

Also so you justify a knight with 20k defense still taking like 5k damage for one skill to be fair? Lmao
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#8 Irtofu

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:52 AM

there is no such thing as an intelligent discussion on this forum knowing how biased 95% of the people are here,they dont want their class to be "balanced" just look at the people that use champs for example :>


well if you noticed the person above you, already hes against any changes cause he plays that single class being targeted 99% of the time,and doesnt want what advantages he has to be evened out, but I guess its a natural instinct?
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#9 Irtofu

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:54 AM

If the attacker has more accuracy , knights tank better then raiders ...


are you also considering the fact that they can cloak and stealth too? knights cant do that, and we both know that the only way you will reach this type of acc is with buffs and even then most classes wont even come close to enough acc to hit raiders with 100% damage
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#10 Span

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:58 AM

are you also considering the fact that they can cloak and stealth too? knights cant do that, and we both know that the only way you will reach this type of acc is with buffs and even then most classes wont even come close to enough acc to hit raiders with 100% damage


Well u do know knights have block ...

Add : And quit triple posting Posted Image

Edited by Span, 30 November 2010 - 12:59 AM.

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#11 Irtofu

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:04 AM

Well u do know knights have block ...

Add : And quit triple posting Posted Image


block, have u tested block? no matter how high the block rate it says it does like 1/10 of what it is suppose to if you are basing it on the % values stated and I believe block doesnt block status effects like posion and burn... and triple posting? they are all relevant to the topic and all different so idk whats the problem...
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#12 Phish

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:04 AM

From the fact that they do better overall from the following categories PVM, PVP(selff buff), PVP(With Cleric buffs)

PVM in most maps where knights take damage raiders with their dodge take zero damage


Block power is doubled in pvm, monsters have low ap so when a knight blocks they'll recieve no damage (or very close to it. Also when they do get hit the damage is negligible.

PVP(self buff) name one class that can effectively deal full damage to a raider with full dodge gear, im not talking about that half damage stuff.


I can agree with you here, raiders get many useful self buffs and many buffs in general: mspeed, dodge, ap and crit are all better than cleric or buff pots (the weaker acc and aspeed buffs still account)

Knights are the only class without a buff that is better than buff pots.

PVP(with Cleric buffs) why do you even call knights tanks when a raider can take out a knight solo? Guess this game has turned into something where a tank is considered a person who can only tank one person.


It still takes a long time for a raider to kill a knight alone. Longer than any other class.

Also so you justify a knight with 20k defense still taking like 5k damage for one skill to be fair? Lmao


Err, what?

Blocking seems to be working as intended. No it doesn't block status effects, it just reduces damage from direct hits.

Edited by Phish, 30 November 2010 - 01:08 AM.

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#13 Irtofu

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:10 AM

Block power is doubled in pvm, monsters have low ap so when a knight blocks they'll recieve no damage (or very close to it. Also when they do get hit the damage is negligible.



I can agree with you here, raiders get many useful self buffs and many buffs in general: mspeed, dodge, ap and crit are all better than cleric or buff pots (the weaker acc and aspeed buffs still account)

Knights are the only class without a buff that is better than buff pots.



It still takes a long time for a raider to kill a knight alone. Longer than any other class.



Err, what?

Blocking seems to be working as intended. No it doesn't block status effects, it just reduces damage from direct hits.


hmm well depends i guess if you are talking about raider vs knights clerics will practically never die, lol, but thats another story.

and yes a knight with 20k defense will still take like 5k damage due to the fact that burn cuts right through everything
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#14 DarkGero

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:14 AM

Some suggestions

reduce the damage burn does per second 250-300 damage/sec
put the same cooldown timer with poison and burn skills for raiders
increase the cooldown timer of burn skills so it is not spamable


that would probably make it close to not worth getting/using compared to the amount of hp most players have these days.
you can only have either a burn OR a poison on a target at one time so this suggestion does nothing
i could go with this but if you throw too long of a cooldown on it it again becomes not worth using.

From the fact that they do better overall from the following categories PVM, PVP(selff buff), PVP(With Cleric buffs)

PVM in most maps where knights take damage raiders with their dodge take zero damage
PVP(self buff) name one class that can effectively deal full damage to a raider with full dodge gear, im not talking about that half damage stuff.
PVP(with Cleric buffs) why do you even call knights tanks when a raider can take out a knight solo? Guess this game has turned into something where a tank is considered a person who can only tank one person.

Also so you justify a knight with 20k defense still taking like 5k damage for one skill to be fair? Lmao


pvm maybe but to get to the point where we take little to no damage in a pvm situation we have to sacrifice alot of other stats to get there namely ap.
raiders will only tank better than a knight in pvp if the player attacking the knight is using normal hits with reliable skills not being able to miss but only doing half the damage it puts the damage that raiders take from being missed to about on par with the damage a knight takes due to his defense.
on top of that they dont have the size hp pool that a knight does so that half damage stuff that you claim shouldnt matter tends to kill raiders faster than it would a knight taking full damage.
pvp with cleric buffs any class can become overpowered.


are you also considering the fact that they can cloak and stealth too? knights cant do that, and we both know that the only way you will reach this type of acc is with buffs and even then most classes wont even come close to enough acc to hit raiders with 100% damage


cloak is a skill it doesnt let you drop the attacker/s from hitting you if your already being targetted (in pvm too)
if you want to take cloak away from a raider thatd be fine but they would need to begiven something in return to help them survive.... if ypour complaining about cloak in a pvp situation then go to your common skills tab 1 skill point gives you 100% chance to decloak raiders 1 point seriously its not going to cripple your build to spend that one point there if raiders are such a concern for you.
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#15 DarkGero

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:29 AM

I can agree with you here, raiders get many useful self buffs and many buffs in general: mspeed, dodge, ap and crit are all better than cleric or buff pots (the weaker acc and aspeed buffs still account)


the ap buff is better than the cleric version/ buff pots
mspeed too ill give you
the aspeed buff is abysmal due to the fact that all attack speed is a % now and not a % of a set number
never gotten the acc buff tbh but it looks like itd have minimal uses
crit is better but with the changes to crit that have occured over the last few years crit is more or less meaninless.
dodge for katar raiders you sacrifice alot of things to get this. as in you have to put alot of points into skills that do not benefit you at all.
for duals yea its an awesome buff but as duals you also miss out on the cloaking buff so its sorta a trade off
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#16 poopiehead

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:29 AM

i dont have trouble hitting raiders on my knight :p_devil: without acc buff...
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#17 BrownBear

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 03:11 AM

If anything, increase the cooldown. Anything else would either cripple raiders or do nothing.
Phoenix slash is a bit too spammable, but if you are good, a raider won't beat you with burn alone.
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#18 HellGuardian

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:01 AM

If anything, increase the cooldown. Anything else would either cripple raiders or do nothing.
Phoenix slash is a bit too spammable, but if you are good, a raider won't beat you with burn alone.


Phoenix slash % is way too low to land a stun if that's what you trying to imply ... If you talking about damage, it is barely consider a scratch.
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#19 Akayo

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:14 AM

Phoenix slash % is way too low to land a stun if that's what you trying to imply ... If you talking about damage, it is barely consider a scratch.

Wrong skill buddy.
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#20 tENLAVUU

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:22 AM

but if you are good, a raider won't beat you with burn alone.


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#21 HellGuardian

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:23 AM

Wrong skill buddy.


LoL thanks, maybe thats what normally people use/talk bout and other then that, people just skip them.
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#22 BrownBear

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:39 AM

Phoenix slash % is way too low to land a stun if that's what you trying to imply ... If you talking about damage, it is barely consider a scratch.


Phoenix slash = burn.
Sucker punch is the stun.
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#23 Metaleux

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:43 AM

From the fact that they do better overall from the following categories PVM, PVP(selff buff), PVP(With Cleric buffs)

PVM in most maps where knights take damage raiders with their dodge take zero damage
PVP(self buff) name one class that can effectively deal full damage to a raider with full dodge gear, im not talking about that half damage stuff.
PVP(with Cleric buffs) why do you even call knights tanks when a raider can take out a knight solo? Guess this game has turned into something where a tank is considered a person who can only tank one person.

Also so you justify a knight with 20k defense still taking like 5k damage for one skill to be fair? Lmao


So a raider should not be able to beat a knight 1v1 because they are tanks ?

I don't really see any problem with the burns, if you have anything above 15k hp they should not be much of a problem I think.
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#24 Irtofu

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 09:10 PM

So a raider should not be able to beat a knight 1v1 because they are tanks ?

I don't really see any problem with the burns, if you have anything above 15k hp they should not be much of a problem I think.


sorry to say, if you have above 15k hp? have you actually tested it? knights even with their high defense and hp die after 2-3 burns along with melee
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#25 Irtofu

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 09:15 PM

but if you are good, a raider won't beat you with burn alone.


well that applies to almost all classes doesnt it? if you got all 15 gear and a raider for refine 5 gear ofc, but thats not the point what I am saying is a one skill should not be dealing that much damage no matter what the persons defense is.
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